Cancellation of Last Train

[NorthernSpirit]

You can claim, but may have a battle on your hands bounced between Metro and the TOC! It's an interesting question as to what major West Yorkshire destinations don't have a later bus than the last train service actually.

I have never been offered a hotel by a TOC, guess it is usually cheaper to shove several people in a taxi fare for a couple of hundred quid at such short notice!

With Arriva at the helm I do think that if the last bus goes at 2230 and the train goes at 2300 but if the last train is late or cancelled, then one is screwed in having to try and get home. I've had this and decided to walk it home.

I'm not sure what the outcome would be if the final train from Bristol Temple Meads to Frome were to be cancelled - All other public service buses have already finished long ago and I'm unsure whether the taxi companies operate that late into the evening.

In Wiltshire, taxis are available 24/7 especially in both Westbury and Trowbridge.

The last X84 to Ilkley on a Saturday leaves Leeds bus station at 22:15. There is a 23:05 departure for Otley which would reduce the cost of a taxi (I haven't checked if there is a late service from Otley to Ilkley), however depending on when the service concerned was cancelled and when the OP arrived at the station & became aware may have meant at best a fair sprint across Leeds to get towards the nearest stops either on The Headrow or Woodhouse Lane.

Sadly this is another example of a disjointed public transport network, where some regular users fall between the gaps of cover when things go wrong. MCards are increasingly a standard for many commuters and other less regular travellers, so really Arriva & Metro need to reach some kind of agreement as to what happens in these instances, and who would be responsible for getting passengers to their destinations.

Edit: Having just checked, there is no late service that would connect off the 23:05 out of Leeds at Otley, so this option would require a taxi from there.

I've asked Metro to ask the operators to extened their services to at least 1am on key routes so that in the event that the train is late there is at least some fall back - irritatingly the last 547 at 2321 from Huddersfield bus station has been withdrawn which really does knacker it up for me as the last 363 goes at 2300 - this now means if I miss the 2300 I'll have to walk the two miles home.

 

[221129]

What do you suggest, drive the train themselves?

Obviously not. However, if passengers don't make the TM aware they are going to miss their last connection then what can the TM do about it, they can't all read minds. Bare in mind that during disruption to a service there could well be other more important things for the TM to be doing first. Also if the disruption happened not far away from Lime St then the TM won't have time to see everyone on an 11 coach train. So if the passengers won't help themselves, then that is down to them.

 

[Antman]

Obviously not. However, if passengers don't make the TM aware they are going to miss their last connection then what can the TM do about it, they can't all read minds. Bare in mind that during disruption to a service there could well be other more important things for the TM to be doing first. Also if the disruption happened not far away from Lime St then the TM won't have time to see everyone on an 11 coach train. So if the passengers won't help themselves, then that is down to them.

Yes I realise the TM might not have time to walk through the train and ask everyone individually but he could make an announcement asking passengers who have missed their last trains to come and see him to arrange their onward travel when the train arrives at Lime Street.

 

[221129]

Yes I realise the TM might not have time to walk through the train and ask everyone individually but he could make an announcement asking passengers who have missed their last trains to come and see him to arrange their onward travel when the train arrives at Lime Street.

When the train arrives at Lime Street the crew are likely to leave straight away and not wait around.

 

[Antman]

When the train arrives at Lime Street the crew are likely to leave straight away and not wait around.

Why? The train will obviously be late anyway, surely ensuring the safe onward travel of passengers is part and parcel of their job?

 

[221129]

Why? The train will obviously be late anyway, surely ensuring the safe onward travel of passengers is part and parcel of their job?

Because they are late too? Contrary to popular belief we also have lives to live, but also if they are due to book on the next day then they MUST have 12 hours between shifts. So if they are booked 13hours between shifts and the train is 2 hours late then they MUST be 1 hour late the next day, which means more disruption and potential cancellations and they only get the bare minimum break.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I have had a few experiences with northern over missing the last train.

Stalybridge station -my northern service to Victoria was 31 minutes late, I arrived in Victoria having missed my connection to Swinton- the ticket office was closed so I went to the staff room on platform 3 and a taxi was ordered and paid for by northern.

Greenfield station- my northern service failed to show up as I waited until gone midnight. Then this man showed up in a very modern 12 seat coach [replacement service] and took my party of three direct to our houses in north Manchester and Salford - paid for by northern.

Swinton station - my father and myself waited in freezing snowy conditions for a Manchester bound train that failed to show up. Then a Wigan bound train came in the platform and the guard said we could board to Wigan and we could travel back with him[presumably Ecs] . We decided on a taxi to north Manchester and yet again-the taxi receipt was reimbursed by northern.

In my experience the railways do a great job in getting customers home if the service fails to show up.

 

[joncombe]

What happens if the last train is cancelled and you are at an un-manned Station - so there’s nobody to ask about alternative travel options? I can’t remember seeing a phone number for Northern displayed at many stations.

Use the help point? I think most (all?) stations have one now.

 

[bb21]

Why? The train will obviously be late anyway, surely ensuring the safe onward travel of passengers is part and parcel of their job?

I don't think you can pin the blame on this one for the reason 221129 gave. In an ideal world, station staff should make themselves known, and easy to find, especially at major interchange stations like Liverpool Lime Street or Manchester Piccadilly in such cases. The onus should be on the station operator to provide assistance in the event of missed connection.

In more minor stations, use the help point.

Obviously the world is not perfect. Sometimes for whatever reason one may have to fork out for a taxi and claim it back afterwards. In the event of a missed connection where valid tickets are held and no assistance is provided at the interchange station, no TOC would leave itself exposed to potential legal action from the customer by refusing to refund reasonable onward travel costs.

 

[bb21]

I am afraid the requirement to report punctuality statistics to the DfT (and then have them waved around in public) is behind this. If a train is cancelled then it's cancelled. But if an alteration like this is then made to help people, then it's a cancellation AND a delay to be reported.

In isolated cases, PPM (and other punctuality measures) will have very little to do with it. The odd train here or there is hardly going to make or break it for the TOC. What will be far more important considerations will be the likes of potential to impact on overnight possession, crew hours, cost of additional delay minutes, etc.

What is likely is that as standard operating policy, no connection is held as a general rule, but usually AIUI last connections of the day is given dispensation for treatment on a case-by-case basis. Of course it also helps if the crew were aware of passengers who may miss their last connections, and made this known to control.

 

[sheff1]

But we have been told that is not down to the crew to find out who has connections, but for the passengers to make themselves known to the crew. Infrequent travellers (or even regular ones who have not been in this situation before) might reasonably assume that a last connection will be held, so see no need to go off searching for the crew, especially if such a search would cause them to leave their luggage unattended.

As a frequent traveller, I know what to do and have always been conveyed to my destination without too much hassle*, but it must be daunting for infrequent travellers when no announcement is made on the train and no one is obviously available to assist when they alight.

* On more than one occasion, though, I have been convinced that if I had not taken the initiative en route there would have been considerable hassle / delay.

 

[Hadders]

Even if staff do come through the train finding out who needs taxis don't rely on this alone.

When I was heavily delayed by GWR the guard did an excellent job of coming through the train finding out exactly where everyone needed to get to. Unfortunately upon arrival at Paddington this information wasn't passed on and the station staff spent over an hour collating it all again much to the annoyance of passengers.

 

[frodshamfella]

My last train at 23.34 from Liverpool to Acton Bridge was cancelled once after I had been to a concert.....a coach was put on....final destination was Crewe.

 

[Skie]

Obviously not. However, if passengers don't make the TM aware they are going to miss their last connection then what can the TM do about it, they can't all read minds. Bare in mind that during disruption to a service there could well be other more important things for the TM to be doing first. Also if the disruption happened not far away from Lime St then the TM won't have time to see everyone on an 11 coach train. So if the passengers won't help themselves, then that is down to them.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that out of a train load of people arriving at Lime Street at 1am some are going to be stranded. Merseyrail services have stopped running by midnight. On this trip when we finally got moving after being stuck at Rugby we got told we were being diverted via Birmingham and what our new ETA was. That was it, guard was nowhere to be seen when getting off and there were no virgin staff on the platform/concourse. Luckily my employer picked up the taxi bill as they still have a duty of care and actually do care.

 

[johntea]

You do get some excellent train guards who realise the service is heavily delayed, and use the opportunity to go through the train asking if anyone has connections they're likely to miss and ringing ahead to control to try and sort things out although as mentioned don't rely on this when you actually try and find assistance at the station as it can get lost in translation! - also don't forget just because they've got you in a taxi / hotel you're still entitled to claim delay repay!

If you can't find anyone, or things start getting awkward I would generally just take a gamble on taking my own taxi and sending in the receipt to customer services - as long as you're not taking the mick they'll probably reimburse you!

Has there ever actually been a case of someone 'stranded' for the night due to a TOC not sorting out alternative transport? No doubt they would go running to the papers if so!

 

[Antman]

I don't think you can pin the blame on this one for the reason 221129 gave. In an ideal world, station staff should make themselves known, and easy to find, especially at major interchange stations like Liverpool Lime Street or Manchester Piccadilly in such cases. The onus should be on the station operator to provide assistance in the event of missed connection.

In more minor stations, use the help point.

Obviously the world is not perfect. Sometimes for whatever reason one may have to fork out for a taxi and claim it back afterwards. In the event of a missed connection where valid tickets are held and no assistance is provided at the interchange station, no TOC would leave itself exposed to potential legal action from the customer by refusing to refund reasonable onward travel costs.

Of course forking out for a taxi and claiming it back later is fine if the person has the resources to pay for the taxi.

A friend of mine was telling me how he missed the last Lewes to Seaford train because the train from London was delayed, the guard came through asking who wanted the Seaford service so he could phone the number through and have taxi's waiting when they arrived at Lewes and an added bonus was the taxi driver dropping him at his front door, happy customer

 

[Ianmel1969]

What would you do if it was a station that wasn't staffed and the last train was cancelled? Phone national rail enquires?

 

[Alan2603]

Has there ever actually been a case of someone 'stranded' for the night due to a TOC not sorting out alternative transport? No doubt they would go running to the papers if so!

Not recent, but I once spent a rather uncomforable night on York Railway station in the winter in the early 1980's, when the London train was so late, it missed it's advertised connection to Scarborough. I and about four others slept on the benches on the platform.

As was the case in those days - unlucky. No taxis or overnight accomodation back then. Nor any complaints to the media!

We had to get the first train in the morning to Scarborough.

 

[AlterEgo]

Has there ever actually been a case of someone 'stranded' for the night due to a TOC not sorting out alternative transport? No doubt they would go running to the papers if so!

Almost. Here's a good, and true story.

A few years ago, a gentleman arrived back off a very late VTWC train at Rugby - it was preposterously late, arriving at 2am or thereabouts. He was parked in the multi-storey car park on the north side of the station. BUT...in order for him to pay for his parking he had to visit the machines, located in the station building. Unfortunately all the staff had gone home. Thus, he could not get his car out of the car park and drive home (which was, IIRC, some distance from the station).

He ended up sleeping in his car.

Upon investigation, I found that Rugby car park's barriers are "inactive" in the dead of night as there is no staff supervision, and if he'd simply driven his car up to the barriers they would have opened and he could have left.

I didn't tell the customer that, though!

I can't remember what we did to fix things but it was a lot more than a refund and an apology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why on *earth* don't they have a pay machine actually in the car park?

 

[Domh245]

Why on *earth* don't they have a pay machine actually in the car park?

I would guess that it discourages (if not prevents) non-rail users from using the car park

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would guess that it discourages (if not prevents) non-rail users from using the car park

I did think that, but walking over to the ticket office to pay isn't much of a problem, nor if it came to it is buying a single to the next stop (Long Buckby?) to legitimise it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why on *earth* don't they have a pay machine actually in the car park?

Security, I believe, as the machine accepted coins and notes.

Hopefully the situation has changed now.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I have six local car parks within a mile or two of my house, all accept cash, none have any method of being closed, secured. All open 24/7 , 365 , can security really be a legitimate answer?

 

[joncombe]

Almost. Here's a good, and true story.

A few years ago, a gentleman arrived back off a very late VTWC train at Rugby - it was preposterously late, arriving at 2am or thereabouts. He was parked in the multi-storey car park on the north side of the station. BUT...in order for him to pay for his parking he had to visit the machines, located in the station building. Unfortunately all the staff had gone home. Thus, he could not get his car out of the car park and drive home (which was, IIRC, some distance from the station).

Nearly had something similar happen to me earlier this year. I had parked in the multi-storey car park at Milton Keynes. I was due back to MK at around 22:15, but the train ended up getting delayed by more than 2 hours. The multi-storey car park at MK is (for some reason) locked after midnight. So I had to get the train manager to phone through to the station who arranged for the security guard to meet me at the car park so I could get out. I suspect though if I hadn't remembered that or bothered to find the train manager I would have been locked out of the car park.

TOCs really should not be preventing access to car parks or the payment machines until after the last train service of the night - and that includes when it's running late!

 

[CentralTrainer]

I remember this happening to me one night about 10 years ago. Was travelling from Birmingham to Dublin on a RailSail service. Got as far as Crewe to change onto a Virgin service - which was cancelled before departure.

So they stuck 5 of us in a cab up to North Wales - I was the only one to go all the way through to Holyhead - at the cost of about £300 to Virgin if I remember correctly (as the driver set the meter running on departure from Crewe)

 

[bigfoote]

Happened to me back in 2003. Working in Bognor Regis, almighty rain storm, planned to catch last service to connect at Barnham, with station staff telling me the last Portsmouth service (2258 off Barnham IIRC) would be held for connections if we were delayed. Stood at Bognor in the doorway of the "office" watching the Pompey head towards Barnham, station staff ring Barnham to update.
14 late off Bognor We arrive as the back lights fade into the distance towards Chichester.
Platform staff denies the last service should have been held, after debate, he authorised a taxi to take me to Havant, solo. Cue a VERY happy cabbie when he sees the authority slip, and dropped off at my door.

On that note, are there still any provisions in the timetable for holding main line connections on the last service?

 

[Smidster]

Sorry to bring this back to the top but I wanted to confirm my understanding after a situation last night.

Unfortunately the Mid- Cheshire line (Chester - Manchester) rather fell apart with the last 3 trains from Manchester cancelled.

I had been attending a concert in Manchester and arrived at Piccadilly intending to catch the 22:40 which had been canned but there were station announcements telling people to get a tram to Altrincham which I did (if there are issues between Altrincham and Manchester isn't mad to do your contingency from Altrincham)

On arrival into Altrincham it became clear that there was no such plan...no train shuttle, bus or even member of staff was on site and so people were left to find their own transport at their own cost.

I phoned there call centre, which was in out of hours mode, and managed to get something for myself (and a couple of others) but they implied that they were taking pity rather than fulfilling an obligation.

Before I take things further (and believe me this was not what I wanted to do at nearly midnight on a Friday night in the middle of ninowhe) am I right that Northern massively failed here? Should something have been provided and can those people who were not as forceful as myself get their money back?

 

[Brissle Girl]

For people not already holding a ticket it is less clear cut but I am of the opinion that there is no contract in place and the railway can refuse to create one meaning there is no liability and the railway has no obligations to provide onwards transport.

Are you sure that is correct? The railway is there to perform a public service, and people are entitled to turn up, buy a ticket and be transported to their destination. If the TOC fails to provide that service then (unless there is force majeure, such as extreme adverse weather), it should have an obligation to fulfill that service in another manner, particularly when it comes to last trains. I do agree it's a grey area though.

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry to bring this back to the top but I wanted to confirm my understanding after a situation last night.

Unfortunately the Mid- Cheshire line (Chester - Manchester) rather fell apart with the last 3 trains from Manchester cancelled.

I had been attending a concert in Manchester and arrived at Piccadilly intending to catch the 22:40 which had been canned but there were station announcements telling people to get a tram to Altrincham which I did (if there are issues between Altrincham and Manchester isn't mad to do your contingency from Altrincham)

On arrival into Altrincham it became clear that there was no such plan...no train shuttle, bus or even member of staff was on site and so people were left to find their own transport at their own cost.

I phoned there call centre, which was in out of hours mode, and managed to get something for myself (and a couple of others) but they implied that they were taking pity rather than fulfilling an obligation.

Before I take things further (and believe me this was not what I wanted to do at nearly midnight on a Friday night in the middle of ninowhe) am I right that Northern massively failed here? Should something have been provided and can those people who were not as forceful as myself get their money back?

It has been mentioned here but your post provides more detail to supplement the other one