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Cancelling GWR and Lancashire Electrification schemes will not reduce the deficit

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ainsworth74

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185's are restricted on hull leeds? hence 170's

Well they are apparently, but I still see 185s in Hull during peak times and I've even been in a doubled up 185 heading to Hull (it was quite late at night and the rear unit was locked out so presumable a positioning move for the next morning). So I'm not sure how severe this restriction is :|
 
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there was concern about an increasing deficit back in 2000.

There was a large budget surplus every year of Labour's first term, used to pay down the debt inherited from the Tories. The Golden Rule and overspends were from 2002 onwards. Even then, government debt as a % of GDP was lower in 2008 than it was in 1997 - its only the crash that changed the position to a negative.
 

Old Timer

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There was a large budget surplus every year of Labour's first term, used to pay down the debt inherited from the Tories. The Golden Rule and overspends were from 2002 onwards. Even then, government debt as a % of GDP was lower in 2008 than it was in 1997 - its only the crash that changed the position to a negative.
Point 1 - The debt was that which was being paid off from Labour 1974 to 1979.

Point 2 the figures were fiddled by taking huge swathes of actual Government debt of the books, to the extent that the EU have actually outlawed the practice followed by Labour.

True debt is where we now are.
 

metrocammel

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Point 1 - The debt was that which was being paid off from Labour 1974 to 1979.

Point 2 the figures were fiddled by taking huge swathes of actual Government debt of the books, to the extent that the EU have actually outlawed the practice followed by Labour.

True debt is where we now are.


Hear, hear! I think the outcome today had the best possible outcome regards public transport. We were expecting ruthless cuts, and I think the large welfare cuts are justified. We can't afford to be a nanny state. It's an overused cliché, but the dire situation has been inherited from the previous government, and the mess needed sorting somehow...
 

WatcherZero

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Weve had a National Debt since the Napoleonic Wars and the creation of the Bank of England, debt itself isnt a problem as any business will tell you.
 

tbtc

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Weve had a National Debt since the Napoleonic Wars and the creation of the Bank of England, debt itself isnt a problem as any business will tell you.

No, National Debt only came about under Gordon Brown (or so the media are trying to tell us!)...

In all seriousness, there's always been debt. I don't remember Thatcher or Major paying the debt off. Brown started to, then the banks hit the fan...

What no politician is telling me is what they want the debt down to. Are the Tories/ Lib-Dems claiming they want *zero* national debt? Or just to get it down to a certain level? Or to use the short term debt as an excuse to make long term changes which they have always wanted to make?
 

IanXC

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I don't see how you can everything your suggesting with 51 185s :|

Looking back it doesn't really read how I meant, I was thinking more of a list of potential options. I think I have probably underestimated the amount of doubling up that is required on the core route.

I think its probably right that the 185s stay together as a uniform fleet, and that theres probably alot of merit in releasing 158s or 156s as described earlier.

jimmyowl1992 - I've no idea! But nearly all of what terminates and starts in Bridlington and then runs fast to Hull is crewed by TPE. I can only think its a hangover from when they did extend to Bridlington but its still bizarre. Usual announcement is "welcome onboard the 18.15 Express Service to Hull" not even any mention of it being a Northern service...
 

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Pretty much every business operates with debt, in fact for large Companies it is the only way they can operate.

Managed properly debt can be an efficient way to operate, the problem starts however when the level of debt becomes of concern to lenders (creditors).

Jarvis Rail collapsed not because it was not good at what it did but because Network Rail deliberately witheld payments due, forcing Jarvis to continually go to the market for more money. In view of Network Rail's bill paying practices and the fact that they try to avoid paying for extra work carried out, the "value" of the Network Rail debt was devalued, ultimately some of the lenders took the view that some of these debts would be irrecoverable and refused to allow Jarvis enough credit to continue to pay their creditors.

As a result suppliers stopped supplying and that was that.

Other Infrastructure Contractors have already taken note and costs to Network Rail are going up. Most Contractors are now reviewing whether they wish to remain in Rail in the UK, and many are looking abroad.

Network Rail's shortsighted and vindictive destruction of Jarvis Rail will be coming back to haunt them long term, as Insurers now rate Network Rail contracts as high risk and are thus walloping up the premuims.

Fortunately I now have absolutely nothing to do with that organisation. The Railways that I work with pay their bills and work WITH not against us. It is a breadth of fresh air and we are now jointly developing some very exciting renewals processes which make NR look like the amateurs they truly are.

It really is SO refreshing to have a client Railway whose engineers and managers actively WANT the Contractor's input and involve us in so much. Indeed only today I was with the Ops guys who gave a presentation of what they needed to achieve. We then told them what we needed. There is a gap but they are looking at how they can move to help us by giving us extra time and we are looking to see how we can work with trains running. One option is for us to run trains whilst we are on the track (a big NO NO under the present regime but one that is being explored) rather than stopping all lines. Because of this dialogue we are now looking at how we can modify our processes to fit around the gaps in their train service, and they are looking at how they can widen the gaps.

We are also looking at how we can run trains over partially installed (completed) track.

The mutual respect that has already grown up between us is incredible, and what is noticable by its absence is the Blame Culture, and the nitpicking Cost Culture. They now trust us to be reasonable and we are bending over backwards to give them value for money. Both parties are happy and indeed we are already advising them on long term plant investment. Because of this mutual trust we do not have to allow risk money, which makes our costs that much cheaper. There is also a positive impact on the rates of interest we pay for our money because the client has a reputation for playing a straight bat and thus their is no perceived risk. Our money rate is therefore base plus minimum market interest.
 

Greenback

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No, National Debt only came about under Gordon Brown (or so the media are trying to tell us!)...

In all seriousness, there's always been debt. I don't remember Thatcher or Major paying the debt off. Brown started to, then the banks hit the fan...

What no politician is telling me is what they want the debt down to. Are the Tories/ Lib-Dems claiming they want *zero* national debt? Or just to get it down to a certain level? Or to use the short term debt as an excuse to make long term changes which they have always wanted to make?

It's the last bit! :lol:
 

northwichcat

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Well they are apparently, but I still see 185s in Hull during peak times and I've even been in a doubled up 185 heading to Hull (it was quite late at night and the rear unit was locked out so presumable a positioning move for the next morning). So I'm not sure how severe this restriction is :|

It's a weight problem East of Selby restricting the speed so a 170 can do Hull-Selby faster reducing the chance of delays.
 

sprinterguy

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If the plan is to move the 350/1s onto the Manchester to Scotland route following electrification (Assuming new build isn't selected to appease the desire for a mix of three and four carriage units), then does anyone know what is meant to replace the 350/1s on their current duties?

Also, the restricting platform lengths that rule out running doubled up four car units must be on the Manchester-Preston section: Anyone know which stations in particular would be problematic?
 

Anvil1984

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why is hull bridlington crewed by FTPE? :s

Only certain diagrams are worked by TPE crew hired by Northern as Northern don't have a base in Scarborugh.
The service uses Northern 158s where 1 stables overnight hence using TPE staff which is cheaper than taxing Northern staff there
 

YorkshireBear

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Only certain diagrams are worked by TPE crew hired by Northern as Northern don't have a base in Scarborugh.
The service uses Northern 158s where 1 stables overnight hence using TPE staff which is cheaper than taxing Northern staff there

ah cheers :)

well at least Netowkr rail have identified they want 3 car units for NW means it might happen even if not straight away :)
 

WatcherZero

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If the plan is to move the 350/1s onto the Manchester to Scotland route following electrification (Assuming new build isn't selected to appease the desire for a mix of three and four carriage units), then does anyone know what is meant to replace the 350/1s on their current duties?

Also, the restricting platform lengths that rule out running doubled up four car units must be on the Manchester-Preston section: Anyone know which stations in particular would be problematic?

Salford Central and Salford Crescent.

Rest of ones too short can be easily lengthened but those two are particularly difficult.
 

Invincibles

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I would have assumed any doubled units would be on Manchester Piccadilly runs and that therefore it would be Oxford Road that would add further complications to things.

Salford Crescent is down for remodelling, will electrification force that to happen or will we see some form of disjointed thinking that sees electrification done first and then the costs of remodelling shoot up?

In some ways it is a shame they can not do Salford to Wigan and Bolton to Wigan infill while they have the contractors in the area, make the entire West of Manchester an electric area (Southport would be run from the bay at Wallgate)

In terms of the defecit there are a lot of seemingly very naive views appearing about the ability of a country to function with large debt and certainly about the extent to which the debt has been repaid over time.
 

WatcherZero

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Doh!

I just realised that electrification is why they have been systematically defoliating the viaduct between Victoria and Salford for the last few months (and it really needed it anyway, small trees hitting windows from viaduct walls, large amounts of shrubbery).

Route to Victoria would have to support 6 car too in case they wanted to divert and terminate which does happen sometimes.
Oxford Road is scheduled for some remodelling of platform access and footbridges as too is both Crescent (Platform decluttering and changes to access ramps and relocated passenger facilities) and Central (platform raising, possible platform reinstatement) though any and all arent scheduled to CP5.
 
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yorksrob

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Are the Tories/ Lib-Dems claiming they want *zero* national debt? Or just to get it down to a certain level? Or to use the short term debt as an excuse to make long term changes which they have always wanted to make?

Indeed. Looking at the difference between ring-fenced budgets and University teaching budgets which have been cut by around 40% for example, it's clear that some of these are major policy changes as opposed to just a response to the defecit, and should be debated as such.

That said, I'm breathing a cautious sigh of relief that some of the rail infrastructure projects are going ahead. It'll be interesting to see how squeezes in other areas such as operating subsidies and changes to franchising will affect services.
 

sprinterguy

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It was supposed to be a short version of the new IEP units going on to Euston-Northampton services currently 350 operated.

Ah, cheers.

Salford Central and Salford Crescent.

Rest of ones too short can be easily lengthened but those two are particularly difficult.
Fair enough, I can understand there being issues in that area.
 

IanXC

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It's a weight problem East of Selby restricting the speed so a 170 can do Hull-Selby faster reducing the chance of delays.

Anyone know what the restriction is? On another thread theres a useful explanation of the limits in here http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Boo... and Speed Restrictions/GERT8000-SP Iss 3.pdf

The question really is whether its an HST limit, or a Sprinter limit - if its an HST limit this surely adds to the case for the 5 180s to go to TPE, their 9 170s to go to ScotRail, and 9 of their 158s to go to Northern.

By my maths that would give the Blackpool services (double formed 158s) about 260 seats versus the 287 a 180 has. TPE could use the 180s for Manchester-Scotland, but also for other peak services, particularly useful if the speed restriction at Selby is an HST one, as they could replace the double formed 170s with a 180 and then have the opportunity to exchange units with First Hull Trains, potentially increase the usage of those sets and avoid the restrictions placed on 185s.

TPE would loose 18 carriages and only gain 15 - does anyone know how full peak double formed 185s are?
 
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