Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Fully devolved Welsh control of the route seen as important even without Welsh independence.

Do I take it from what you say that not a single brass farthing will come from the coffers of anywhere in England in that case for this particular project?

 

[duffield]

Do I take it from what you say that not a single brass farthing will come from the coffers of anywhere in England in that case for this particular project?

I have no idea. That is for politicians to negotiate. I'm just stating what appears to be an important motivation for this project. If some of the money came through the normal transfers of money from Westminster, the point is that the line would nonetheless surely be under full Welsh control after it was constructed.

I'm not trying to get into any arguments about if this 'motivation' is reasonable, if such money transfers are right or wrong (or even if this project makes economic sense), I'm not Welsh and don't live in or near Wales or have strong feelings on the matter.

All I was trying to do was point out that despite Wales not being imminently independent, the current devolved set up means the Welsh government would like to have more control over important infrastructure and this is one motivation for the project, similar to them taking over some Network Rail infrastructure for the South Wales metro.

 

[quantinghome]

Yup, great for the East and English Marches, let the West coast rot. They would have to speed things up - surely that would be with trains N-S only stopping at major stations.

A spur at Dyfi Junction would be cheaper than a bridge, just observing what has been said on this matter by politicians, THERE IS NO DIRECT LINK BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH COMPLETELY WITHIN WALES.

You're changing the subject. I was responding to your post specifically about the suggested reopenings providing a link between North and South Wales. If you want to talk about improvements to transport to benefit the west coast that's fine, but it's a relatively unpopulated area and large-scale public transport investment is always going to be a dubious proposition in such areas.

I'm sure you could knock off a few minutes by having a limited stop service, but saving 1.5 hours is a completely different ball game.

As for the link not being within Wales, I suspect most people don't care and just want to get where they want to get to in a reasonably fast, comfortable and convenient manner. If it's such a problem it would be cheaper to rename Shropshire and Herefordshire as "East Wales", or perhaps transfer sovereignty of the trackbed?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the link not being within Wales, I suspect most people don't care and just want to get where they want to get to in a reasonably fast, comfortable and convenient manner. If it's such a problem it would be cheaper to rename Shropshire and Herefordshire as "East Wales", or perhaps transfer sovereignty of the trackbed?

Thinking back to the days of yore, the Mercher Lords of that region were appointed by the King of England to guard the border separating England and Wales. What you propose in your last sentence would need a review of any of those land area laws still on the Statute Book.

 

[quantinghome]

Thinking back to the days of yore, the Mercher Lords of that region were appointed by the King of England to guard the border separating England and Wales. What you propose in your last sentence would need a review of any of those land area laws still on the Statute Book.

Indeed, and it may be fiendishly complicated. But still easier than reopening Aber-Carmarthen...

 

[HSTEd]

Carmarthen-Aber doesn't even get you a route from the North coast, still need more track to reach Traws or Bangor

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Carmarthen-Aber doesn't even get you a route from the North coast, still need more track to reach Traws or Bangor

I think the proposal has always had Bangor > Afonwen as the second phase of the project. Personally, I've always thought that there's a rather better arguement for reopening Bangor > Caernarfon than there is for the rest of the route. I'm rather surprised that campaigners didn't start with that section rather than Carmarthen > Aber.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the proposal has always had Bangor > Afonwen as the second phase of the project. Personally, I've always thought that there's a rather better arguement for reopening Bangor > Caernarfon than there is for the rest of the route. I'm rather surprised that campaigners didn't start with that section rather than Carmarthen > Aber.

I'm honestly not even sure if going via Carmarthen is even the best route from Aberystwyth to South Wales..... the route via Builth Wells is potentially more interesting.

 

[Tobbes]

I'm honestly not even sure if going via Carmarthen is even the best route from Aberystwyth to South Wales..... the route via Builth Wells is potentially more interesting.

If your interest/use case is Cardiff/SE Wales to Bangor, then a modernised MWR route through Builth Wells may well be quicker and more useful - even if LCV Cymru would need a Beacons Base Tunnel and quite a lot of civils in Mid-Wales before tunnelling under Snowdonia to Bangor. Quite whether Holyhead/Bangor to Cardiff needs a substantial fraction of 18tph at 1000 seats a time is a different question, of course.

 

[Llanigraham]

If they wan't to play politics, then they are free to go away & play politics, with their own money.

You have realised that transport in Wales is a devolved matter, so is paid for by the Assembly?

 

[Llanigraham]

Yup, great for the East and English Marches, let the West coast rot. They would have to speed things up - surely that would be with trains N-S only stopping at major stations.

A spur at Dyfi Junction would be cheaper than a bridge, just observing what has been said on this matter by politicians, THERE IS NO DIRECT LINK BETWEEN NORTH AND SOUTH COMPLETELY WITHIN WALES.

Even if they only stopped at major stations, and to be honest south of Aberystwyth they are going to be few and far between since the line doesn't pass through many, the geography will not allow a fast service, so it isn't going to be a practical service.

 

[Llanigraham]

Do I take it from what you say that not a single brass farthing will come from the coffers of anywhere in England in that case for this particular project?

At the present time the only money spent has been "Welsh" money, and since transport is a devolved matter to the Welsh Assembly I see no likelihood of english money coming towards it (especially as many of the constuencies it passes through are Plaid seats!)

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm honestly not even sure if going via Carmarthen is even the best route from Aberystwyth to South Wales..... the route via Builth Wells is potentially more interesting.

And would be even more difficult to rebuild, and still wouldn't be any quicker than taking the Marches Line between Yr Gogleed (North) Cymru and De (South) Cymru.

 

[Tobbes]

And would be even more difficult to rebuild, and still wouldn't be any quicker than taking the Marches Line between Yr Gogleed (North) Cymru and De (South) Cymru.

But from Cardiff to Bangor going via Builth Wells would be quicker than via Carmarthen and Aber if your (political) goal is an entirely Welsh route, no?

 

[Llanigraham]

But from Cardiff to Bangor going via Builth Wells would be quicker than via Carmarthen and Aber if your (political) goal is an entirely Welsh route, no?

Very unlikely when you look at the gradients and the number of sharp curves the old Cambrian line from Moat Lane through Llanidloes, Rhayader and Newbridge took, and much of it was single track so severely limits usage.
Plus much of the route has been obliterated by road and housing, the bridges have been demolished, and bats have taken over the tunnel.

Oh, and my house is in the way!!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The main political drive for this project is not to connect Aber and Carmarthen. By restoring this line and the Afon Wen to Bangor, Wales has a north -south link without the need to cross the border and navigate the perimeter of the principality.

You would still have to change trains though. The only route for Bangor-Cardiff that works without a change of train is the current one (via England). As well as Bangor-Porthmadog (please let's not have the detour via Afon Wen if this were to go ahead) and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen you would also need a new bridge across the Dyfi if you want to avoid passengers having to change at Dyfi Junction (I'm assuming the train from Cardiff would reverse at Aberystwyth, but the track layout at Dyfi Junction doesn't allow you to go towards Pwllheli from the Aberystwyth platform).

A spur at Dyfi Junction would be cheaper than a bridge

I don't think there's enough space between the Dyfi bridge and the Cambrian Coast platform at Dyfi Junction to fit a chord in there. A new bridge there would almost certainly be cheaper than one near Borth across the mouth of the Dyfi though.

it's a relatively unpopulated area and large-scale public transport investment is always going to be a dubious proposition in such areas.

I think I disagree; although it depends on how you define 'large scale'. HS2/Crossrail levels of investment are without a doubt dubious for such areas, but I would very much hope for a massive uplift in bus services (which in comparison with other bus schemes could look like a 'large scale investment', despite being a fair bit cheaper than a high-capacity railway) with a massive improvement in the quality of vehicles (mainly better legroom) used on long-distance routes.

I think the proposal has always had Bangor > Afonwen as the second phase of the project. Personally, I've always thought that there's a rather better arguement for reopening Bangor > Caernarfon than there is for the rest of the route. I'm rather surprised that campaigners didn't start with that section rather than Carmarthen > Aber.

I agree, they should have started with Bangor-Caernarfon.

You have realised that transport in Wales is a devolved matter, so is paid for by the Assembly?

Road transport is devolved. However I believe that rail infrustructure through Network Rail Wales (unlike Network Rail Scotland) is not devolved and that the Welsh block grant (UK government funding to the Welsh Government) does not include an allocation for rail infrustructure. Remember that electrification to Swansea was cancelled by the UK government, not by the Welsh government. I'm not sure what the arangement is now that the core valley lines are transferring from Network Rail to Transport for Wales though; will there be an increase in the block grant to pay for core valley lines infrustructure?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I agree, they should have started with Bangor-Caernarfon.

If such a line were ever to see the day of light, would Port Dinorwic once again have a railway station on that line. Any thoughts on where other intermediate stations would be situated?

 

[HSTEd]

If your interest/use case is Cardiff/SE Wales to Bangor, then a modernised MWR route through Builth Wells may well be quicker and more useful - even if LCV Cymru would need a Beacons Base Tunnel and quite a lot of civils in Mid-Wales before tunnelling under Snowdonia to Bangor. Quite whether Holyhead/Bangor to Cardiff needs a substantial fraction of 18tph at 1000 seats a time is a different question, of course.

Well a single track HSR would easily be able to cope with demand.
Which reduces costs somewhat
With a gradient derogation the amount of tunneling could be kept relatively reasonable

 

[krus_aragon]

If such a line were ever to see the day of light, would Port Dinorwic once again have a railway station on that line. Any thoughts on where other intermediate stations would be situated?

Port Dinorwic / Felinheli is the obvious intermediate location, and would surely warrant a station. There may be a case made for a station near Treborth / Faenol / A55, which would be near Ysbyty Gwynedd hospital, the Parc Menai business park, and a possible location for a Park & Ride station. Bangor currently serves as a railhead for much of Anglesey, and despite the increased provision of parking at the station, getting there through traffic is problematic. (The wisdom of having a park & ride station next to the (road) congested Britannia Bridge may need further thought, though.)

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

If such a line were ever to see the day of light, would Port Dinorwic once again have a railway station on that line. Any thoughts on where other intermediate stations would be situated?

If it did it certainly wouldn't be called Port Dinorwic! That name fell into disuse around the time the railway closed. The village is called Y Felinheli these days.

I think I'm right in saying that some of the original alignment has been lost with the constuction of the Felinheli by-pass so presumably the station might have to be on a new site.

In terms of where another station might be located a lot could depend on whether the third Menai crossing finally gets the go ahead. I believe the preferred route is parallel to the Britannia Bridge. If so, Krus_Aragon's suggestion of a Bangor Parkway would be a sensible solution.

 

[Western Lord]

If it did it certainly wouldn't be called Port Dinorwic! That name fell into disuse around the time the railway closed. The village is called Y Felinheli these days.

I think I'm right in saying that some of the original alignment has been lost with the constuction of the Felinheli by-pass so presumably the station might have to be on a new site.

In terms of where another station might be located a lot could depend on whether the third Menai crossing finally gets the go ahead. I believe the preferred route is parallel to the Britannia Bridge. If so, Krus_Aragon's suggestion of a Bangor Parkway would be a sensible solution.

The former station of Port Dinorwic still exists, but much of the trackbed to the north has disappeared under new roads. The real problem would be at Caernarfon, where you would have to demolish Morrison's supermarket, do away with the road that runs through the former railway tunnel and demolish the Welsh Highland Railway's new station.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The former station of Port Dinorwic still exists, but much of the trackbed to the north has disappeared under new roads. The real problem would be at Caernarfon, where you would have to demolish Morrison's supermarket, do away with the road that runs through the former railway tunnel and demolish the Welsh Highland Railway's new station.

I thought the Welsh Highland had allowed enough space at their station for a possible future extention through the tunnel - that might well be enough space for narrow gauge of course!

 

[krus_aragon]

I thought the Welsh Highland had allowed enough space at their station for a possible future extention through the tunnel - that might well be enough space for narrow gauge of course!

They've made sure they could extend the narrow gauge line past their station building to get to the tunnel entrance; it's of limited use for a standard gauge line coming through the tunnel unless you want an end-on change of gauge next to the station building!

 

[talerddig]

You would still have to change trains though. The only route for Bangor-Cardiff that works without a change of train is the current one (via England). As well as Bangor-Porthmadog (please let's not have the detour via Afon Wen if this were to go ahead) and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen you would also need a new bridge across the Dyfi if you want to avoid passengers having to change at Dyfi Junction (I'm assuming the train from Cardiff would reverse at Aberystwyth, but the track layout at Dyfi Junction doesn't allow you to go towards Pwllheli from the Aberystwyth platform). The train would 'reverse at Aber', as it does when Aber train goes east from Shrewsbury. No problem with multiple units. If you have a new link within Wales, you would not have to change trains if TfW were to run a version of the Red Dragon.
I don't think there's enough space between the Dyfi bridge and the Cambrian Coast platform at Dyfi Junction to fit a chord in there. A new bridge there would almost certainly be cheaper than one near Borth across the mouth of the Dyfi though. The problem the original surveyors had with the Dyfi, is they couldn't find the bottom of the estuary! Also, the bridge was due to rejoin the Coast line close by the now built around Penhelig station area, whereas running a connection from the Aber end of Dyfi platform to meet the bridge would be cheaper maybe.

I think I disagree; although it depends on how you define 'large scale'. HS2/Crossrail levels of investment are without a doubt dubious for such areas, but I would very much hope for a massive uplift in bus services (which in comparison with other bus schemes could look like a 'large scale investment', despite being a fair bit cheaper than a high-capacity railway) with a massive improvement in the quality of vehicles (mainly better legroom) used on long-distance routes.

I agree, they should have started with Bangor-Caernarfon. I think the two should be the same project and I thought The Traws Link was promoting both. Sorry, but the southern boys have been better at PR I think

Road transport is devolved. However I believe that rail infrustructure through Network Rail Wales (unlike Network Rail Scotland) is not devolved and that the Welsh block grant (UK government funding to the Welsh Government) does not include an allocation for rail infrustructure. Remember that electrification to Swansea was cancelled by the UK government, not by the Welsh government. I'm not sure what the arangement is now that the core valley lines are transferring from Network Rail to Transport for Wales though; will there be an increase in the block grant to pay for core valley lines infrustructure?

I don't think there's enough space between the Dyfi bridge and the Cambrian Coast platform at Dyfi Junction to fit a chord in there. A new bridge there would almost certainly be cheaper than one near Borth across the mouth of the Dyfi though. The problem the original surveyors had with the Dyfi, is they couldn't find the bottom of the estuary! Also, the bridge was due to rejoin the Coast line close by the now built around Penhelig station area, whereas running a connection from the Aber end of Dyfi platform to meet the bridge would be cheaper maybe.

I agree, they should have started with Bangor-Caernarfon. I think the two should be the same project and I thought The Traws Link was promoting both. Sorry, but the southern boys have been better at PR I think​

 

[talerddig]

Very unlikely when you look at the gradients and the number of sharp curves the old Cambrian line from Moat Lane through Llanidloes, Rhayader and Newbridge took, and much of it was single track so severely limits usage.
Plus much of the route has been obliterated by road and housing, the bridges have been demolished, and bats have taken over the tunnel.

Oh, and my house is in the way!!

However (your house permitting... , the new genberation of units are lighter and have better performance on gradients and points than pre Beeching trains.

 

[talerddig]

Even if they only stopped at major stations, and to be honest south of Aberystwyth they are going to be few and far between since the line doesn't pass through many, the geography will not allow a fast service, so it isn't going to be a practical service.

Again, I disagree. not fast as say a Pendolino, but. the Aber-Carmarthen line would be serviced by much lighter trains than pre Beeching which allows better acceleration and point handling - Cambrian trains proved that. Also, the plan was to have only stations at four of the original stops - Llanilar, Tregaron, Lampeter, Llanybydder.

 

[talerddig]

Carmarthen-Aber doesn't even get you a route from the North coast, still need more track to reach Traws or Bangor

Traws Link Cymru promotes both routes and tbh, the rationale for both does not stand up if they aren't both done

 

[talerddig]

I think the proposal has always had Bangor > Afonwen as the second phase of the project. Personally, I've always thought that there's a rather better arguement for reopening Bangor > Caernarfon than there is for the rest of the route. I'm rather surprised that campaigners didn't start with that section rather than Carmarthen > Aber.

Maybe they are based in the South? Here's an opportunity to fill your boots....

 

[Bald Rick]

Again, I disagree. not fast as say a Pendolino, but. the Aber-Carmarthen line would be serviced by much lighter trains than pre Beeching which allows better acceleration and point handling - Cambrian trains proved that. Also, the plan was to have only stations at four of the original stops - Llanilar, Tregaron, Lampeter, Llanybydder.

Acceleration isn’t much use if you can’t do more than 60mph.

This line has zero chance of happening.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Traws Link Cymru promotes both routes and tbh, the rationale for both does not stand up if they aren't both done

Agreed, although I think you could argue for Bangor > Caernarfon as a standalone project.

One of the many problems with the idea as I see it is the Afonwen dog-leg. If the intention is to provide a reasonably fast link between the north west and the south of Wales a better route between Caernarfon and Porthmadog would be needed. We've also seen recently on the north Wales main line how the conflict between local services and overall long distance journey times can play out and the Traws scheme seems to invite a similar conundrum.

I can understand the political case in favour of improved links between the north and south of Wales as an excercise in 'nation building'. Plenty of countries have placed a political imperative ahead of just meeting passenger demand and there's no reason Wales shouldn't do the same, if we so choose. I'm just not sure that a west coast rail link would do what its supporters think it would.