Chiltern Recovers £400,000 of Evaded Revenue

[43066]

They're not providing a safe service.

That’s quite an allegation. Do you have any evidence of this?

They are constantly in breach of the maximum capacity limits.

What are these, please, and where can they be found? I’ve never heard of them.

 

[tspaul26]

A cursory glance at the @Customersofchilternrailways twitter account and you'll see why so many people try and evade the fares.

People like you, perchance?

I have had recent history with fare evasion so I have to be extra careful in future

 

[a_user_123]

Since this comment is to a greater or lesser degree directed at me, I’ll bite.

First things first, in my job I generally specialise in securing consent for major transport projects and associated safeguarding matters, including for rail schemes, but I am not (and have never been) employed ‘on the trains’.

I do some voluntary work connected with the railway, but this primarily entails providing support to vulnerable people, schools safety outreach and dealing with known sex offenders, violent offenders and antisocial behaviour on stations.

The vast majority of the population never travels by train, let alone regularly or frequently. Your argument is based on a false premise.

Of regular or frequent travellers, they are perfectly capable of paying for their travel in advance - and do so. They do not by and large make “minor procedural errors”.

They see the signs and hear the announcements which make quite clear that tickets must be purchased prior to boarding - and they do so.

Almost all of the journeys they make are comparatively simple, whether from their local station into town or even on longer distance journeys which they will generally book in advance (the booking route doesn’t matter for this purpose) for the train and times they want and they will then stick to that itinerary.

And there is damage from lax enforcement: it undermines the foregoing messages; causes confusion; and can lead people into a ’pay when challenged’ mentality, thus depriving the railway of legitimate revenue and increasing the cost to the public purse.

And let’s be honest with ourselves here: many of the cases which come up in this forum are far from ‘honest mistakes’. Instead, they involve deliberate dishonesty and serial evasion and there are threads littered with excuses, blame-shifting and entitlement.

I will single out the ‘expired railcard’ cases though. I am happy to accept that most of these are inadvertent errors, but the passengers must then learn their lesson and not do it again. People should accept responsibility for their actions because no one forces them to have a railcard in the first place.

They should also pay the additional money in respect of the discounts to which they were not entitled, which is not as I understand it how TOCs tend to approach such matters and which I oppose.

If they do not learn this lesson, then it should be escalated to a higher level in the hope that might (a) cause them to take more care in the future and (b) encourage others.


Clearly you didn’t learn your lesson. Perhaps you should take more care in the future?

And I note that you appear not to have paid for all of the travel you undertook even in your own example.

Had you inadvertently over-travelled on one occasion, but paid the requisite fare for that travel, then I would agree that proceeding with a prosecution might not be in the public interest. But as I mentioned in my original comment, I wouldn’t be of a mind for such a case to be prosecuted at all!

But that is not this case: you have done it more than once; didn’t learn your lesson; and didn’t actually pay for all of the additional travel you made.

I think there is no chance of us agreeing. If you seriously think that a mistake that causes no harm and has happened <0.1% of journeys and only inconveniences and costs the person responsible should be prosecuted with the end result of people potentially losing jobs then you have an extremely different idea of what courts should be for to me. I remember asking around my office the day after and every single person had made the same mistake (the local network has very frequent trains all in the same branding and with splits at different points).

At the very least, by any coherent world view, the railway companies regular and careless mistakes with delay repay must be viewed as substantially more severe. Why have you not condemned this? If two mistakes in 5 years deserves a court appearance then God only knows what this merits.

 

[AlterEgo]

A cursory glance at the @Customersofchilternrailways twitter account and you'll see why so many people try and evade the fares.

You did it because you're dishonest. The only smart thing you've posted on this forum is that you were instructing a solicitor to act on your behalf, after Chiltern corresponded with you and told you, from your own thread:

"We are authorised to deal with your case by way of an administrative disposal, but a prerequisite of dealing with this matter in this manner is that you take responsibility for all the offences committed. As you have failed to do so, you do not currently meet the criteria for any administrative disposal."

 

[Deafdoggie]

A cursory glance at the @Customersofchilternrailways twitter account and you'll see why so many people try and evade the fares. They're not providing a safe service. They are constantly in breach of the maximum capacity limits.

No. You'll see how a minority of people try to justify their actions of breaking the law. Deliberately not paying the correct fare makes you a criminal, pure and simple. Attempting to justify your actions doesn't mean you're not a criminal, it just means you're a criminal without a grasp on reality.

There's no such thing as maximum capacity limits. You just made that up.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Full text of article, to avoid the advert ridden link:

There is some irony in intentionally depriving National World (publishers of the Banbury Guardian) of revenue, in the context of a thread discussing people depriving Chiltern Railways of revenue. Like fare evasion, copyright infringement can be a criminal offence.

Maybe journalists don't deserve to pay their mortgage as much as railway staff do?

(Personally I'm not a great fan of either National World or Chiltern Railways, but there you go.)

 

[fandroid]

Clearly you didn’t learn your lesson. Perhaps you should take more care in the future?

And I note that you appear not to have paid for all of the travel you undertook even in your own example.

Had you inadvertently over-travelled on one occasion, but paid the requisite fare for that travel, then I would agree that proceeding with a prosecution might not be in the public interest. But as I mentioned in my original comment, I wouldn’t be of a mind for such a case to be prosecuted at all!

But that is not this case: you have done it more than once; didn’t learn your lesson; and didn’t actually pay for all of the additional travel you made.

This was in response to a post where a forum member had got onto a wrong train a couple of times in 5 years.

Your reaction is really quite harsh. The poster gained no personal benefit from their extra travel, and indeed had a fair amount of time wasted. The marginal cost to the railway of those journeys was tiny, but the poster paid (in at least one case) for their journey back to the start, and so the railway actually benefitted from that error.

"didn't learn your lesson" is judgemental in the extreme. How do you know that they weren't rather more vigilant for most of the time after the first incident, and avoided numerous similar mistakes?

I'm wondering whether my unintended journey from Reading to Bristol Parkway and back (many years ago) is something I should now confess to GWR. In mitigation I can truthfully claim that the staff who assisted me laughed and said "you're not the first!".

 

[Haywain]

A cursory glance at the @Customersofchilternrailways twitter account and you'll see why so many people try and evade the fares. They're not providing a safe service. They are constantly in breach of the maximum capacity limits. Their social media account gives some truly abhorrent replies.

These are excuses and nothing more. If anyone thinks the service is that bad they have the option not to use it, but if they choose to use it they should pay.

Of course, if this is the sort of thing you said to Chiltern after being caught evading fares it is no surprise that thry have chosen not to offer a settlement.

 

[VT118]

What would you suggest their response should have been?

An apology would have been a nice start.

Seriously, you can't see an issue with "Get off the train then" as a response?

People paying upwards of £5000 for a season ticket raising concerns about their own safety being told to get off, make themselves late for work, and then wait for the next service which is highly likely to be just as busy. Like people just have an hour spare every morning.

It's disgusting.

 

[jumble]

In what other sphere of activity can someone confess to multiple crimes worth £15,000 and not even taken to Court?
This makes the threatened prosecutions for once forgetting your photocard look even more ridiculous.

Tax avoidance with HMRC?

 

[Haywain]

People paying upwards of £5000 for a season ticket raising concerns about their own safety being told to get off,

They can't be significant concerns if they are not prepared to take the easiest option to make themselves safer.

 

[VT118]

That’s quite an allegation. Do you have any evidence of this?

I've seen people feint on their trains. I myself have almost had panic attacks from being crammed in.

What are these, please, and where can they be found? I’ve never heard of them.

I've seen correspondence that suggests there is. Surely there must be some limitations by law?


It's a shame to see their service go downhill like this. They have largely been a great railway company for many years. It's only in the last 5-6 years that it's got really bad.
I believe they have planned a fleet renewal scheme for 2030, so fingers crossed they back to where they were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame to see their service go downhill like this. They have largely been a great railway company for many years. It's only in the last 5-6 years that it's got really bad.

The dead hand of Arriva. Anything they touch turns to sheer grinding mediocrity (polite version).

Have they ever made a sustained good job of anything? I'm yet to see it.

 

[baz962]

The dead hand of Arriva. Anything they touch turns to sheer grinding mediocrity (polite version).

Have they ever made a sustained good job of anything? I'm yet to see it.

Isn't London Overground well regarded operationally.

 

[12LDA28C]

The increase in revenue protection perhaps shows where their priorities lie. Milk as much money out of the franchise while you have it. I assume they have no incentive to reinvest for new rolling stock as it would take years to turn a profit.

Someone is possibly going to get seriously injured soon. People are already feinting on a regular basis. I dread the summer months.

You're aware that it's not really possible to obtain more rolling stock quickly and easily, even if Chiltern wanted to (which they do)? For a start, the DfT have to approve any kind of tender being issued for new trains and it would take several years for new trains to start entering service. Even a cascade of trains from another operator is a complex process, reliant on suitable stock being available even before any other considerations are taken into account.

It's certainly not a matter of 'no incentive to reinvest for new rolling stock' as you put it.

If you're seriously suggesting that anyone unhappy with the service they've received refuses to buy a ticket and risks getting a criminal record as a result, I'd say that's not great advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't London Overground well regarded operationally.

I suppose, though they don't have much freedom, similar to London buses.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Seriously, you can't see an issue with "Get off the train then" as a response?

I have no idea why you have put that in quotation marks. It most certainly isn't a quote. If you can't even quote correctly how can we believe anything you say?

. Surely there must be some limitations by law?

No. How would it be enforced? Who is counting people onboard? Who decides who should get off?

I've seen people feint on their trains.

I've known people have heart attacks. There's not necessarily a link, just because you'd like to think there is. And, again, if people are ill they can get off.

 

[Mojo]

Chiltern Railways advertised on their social media earlier today about how they are launching a new campaign against fare evasion, complete with pictures of new vinyls they have installed at stations with messages such as “Are you a fare dodger?” printed on mirrors in station toilets, and “No excuses” stuck to the station floor.

Unsurprisingly, most of the comments suggest this has gone down like a bucket of cold sick, considering the approach to be very unwelcoming and hostile.

Link to twitter thread: https://x.com/chilternrailway/status/1765733081057468805?s=46&t=NHmFjvBG5xCXSDxwneMrXw

 

[Starmill]

The vast majority of the population never travels by train, let alone regularly or frequently.

I do wish people would try to accept the perspective behind this before commenting. Nearly all rail use in England has one or both ends of the journey in London. Most people use trains less than monthly, or never. Over 80% of us live in a household with private motor access (not me though!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly you didn’t learn your lesson. Perhaps you should take more care in the future?

Wow, just wow. Have you really never made a mistake in your life?

You may not of course work for the railway, but this attitude does seem to pervade it, and I consider it most unwelcome that it does. I can barely say I agree with a single word of that post.

For a forgotten Railcard renewal (within reason), to me a reasonable sanction would be a Penalty Fare and an immediate retrospective renewal at a booking office. Not hauling people through Courts or making them repay fares at Anytime type rates.

I should feel able to support Chiltern here, but I can't help but think a nonzero part of this figure will be from chasing easy targets who have simply erred. I'm happy with people who have defrauded the railway (i.e. an offence that would succeed at prosecution under the Fraud Act) being hauled through the Courts, indeed I'd rather they were than that settlements were used in this sort of case (I'm not really happy with settlements to discontinue action in any form - indeed I think that's a form of bribery/extortion and thus should be wholly illegal), but equally for things that are no more serious than getting back to a car park ten minutes late because your kid needed the loo urgently, or forgetting to pay for it because you were late for work, the sanction should be no more serious than a small, and heavily regulated, financial penalty - a Penalty Fare.

 

[Kite159]

Chiltern Railways advertised on their social media earlier today about how they are launching a new campaign against fare evasion, complete with pictures of new vinyls they have installed at stations with messages such as “Are you a fare dodger?” printed on mirrors in station toilets, and “No excuses” stuck to the station floor.

Unsurprisingly, most of the comments suggest this has gone down like a bucket of cold sick, considering the approach to be very unwelcoming and hostile.

Link to twitter thread: https://x.com/chilternrailway/status/1765733081057468805?s=46&t=NHmFjvBG5xCXSDxwneMrXw

Agreed there, seems so kind and welcoming of the rail industry to be accused of fare dodging when you visit the toilet at a station. Especially as those whom think payment is strictly optional will simply ignore the messages and barge through the gateline knowing it is highly unlikely the member of staff will do anything about it, especially if leaving the station.

Arriva must have been told to up their game in protecting revenues to get a performance related bonus in the rail contract, by going after the easy low laying fruit of those whom short fare (trying to use a paper ticket at Marylebone from Wembley Stadium).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed there, seems so kind and welcoming to be accused of fare dodging when you visit the toilet at a station. Especially as those whom think payment is strictly optional will simply ignore the messages and barge through the gateline knowing it is highly unlikely the member of staff will do anything about it.

Yep, exactly. It's making your passengers who pay their fares feel like criminals while those who wilfully defraud them just carry on anyway.

It totally sums up the attitude problem of the railway in 2024.

 

[Titfield]

Yep, exactly. It's making your passengers who pay their fares feel like criminals while those who wilfully defraud them just carry on anyway.

It totally sums up the attitude problem of the railway in 2024.

I dont disagree but what is a better approach?

We see posts on here from members of the general public who dont know (or say they dont know) that they need a ticket before they board the train likewise those who claim railcard discounts not knowing they need to purchase or be in possession of the appropriate railcard.

 

[Kite159]

I dont disagree but what is a better approach?

We see posts on here from members of the general public who dont know (or say they dont know) that they need a ticket before they board the train likewise those who claim railcard discounts not knowing they need to purchase or be in possession of the appropriate railcard.

So should the likes of the supermarkets put stickers on the mirrors in their toilets saying "Are you looking at a shoplifter?" to try and combat the casual shoplifting which happens more frequently now?

For the rail industry, is simply tarring the ~ 99% of genuine passengers whom have the correct tickets (have the correct railcard) with the same brush to combat the 1% whom claim the incorrect discount or have incorrect tickets?

 

[12LDA28C]

Agreed there, seems so kind and welcoming of the rail industry to be accused of fare dodging when you visit the toilet at a station. Especially as those whom think payment is strictly optional will simply ignore the messages and barge through the gateline knowing it is highly unlikely the member of staff will do anything about it, especially if leaving the station.

Depends on location but I've certainly seen plenty of staff make an effort to apprehend fare dodgers instead of just standing by and letting them 'barge through the gateline', particularly at Marylebone.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think there's anything more to add to this discussion.

Thanks everyone.