Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

[F Great Eastern]

A whole bunch of DMU's are being freed up and built, but in my neck of the woods, a whole load are being withdrawn/scrapped. If it all pans out that our overcrowding issues are all sorted, then please, sell them on. But I'm sceptical until I see it.

Plus it's looking completely likely that the GA bi-modes may end up subbing for EMUs on commuter services and the PRM compliant stock on GA may end up having to stay on longer which is going to have implications on other TOCs who won't get cascaded stock they are depending on. Hopefully Bombardier get their house in order but I don't hold my breath.

 

[yorksrob]

Was this the same privatised railway that was barred from adding cars to the Class 185 by the DFT, eventually agree a deal with the DFT (who dragged their heels for ages) for a large number of DMUs, which the DFT then backed out of under the excuse of electrification and then the DFT backed out of the electrification itself which led us to the situation where we are today, where in the next few years we will have a chronic shortage of DMUs and a vast oversupply of EMUs, which has in turn put some TOCs in awkward positions, whilst at the same time these actions (and other more recent procurement exercises) have annoyed the ROSCOs?

The DFT are to blame here. Their dithering and flip flopping on policy has led us to the current situation and the ROSCOS have been badly burnt in the last few years so no surprise that they might want to try and export some rolling stock to new customers who they might be able to have a bit more faith in.

Yes it was, which is partly the reason why "privatisation" has never worked properly (I was against it from the start).

As I say, I'm happy to pass trains on when we know that all our needs are catered for - but knowing our lot, we'll get a lot of flannel about how we'll have enough DMU's for our needs, then when it turns out we don't, it'll be "oh we've already sent them on, so tough titties"

 

[F Great Eastern]

If there really was a shortage the ROSCOs wouldn’t be touting these trains somewhere they have to gauge change them

They may only get a year or two lease at most extension in the UK and then they'll be left sitting idle, when Bombardier get their house in order and the 769s and 230s are sorted from what has been discussed about Irish Rail, they would be on at very least, 4-5 year leases.

 

[yorksrob]

Plus it's looking completely likely that the GA bi-modes may end up subbing for EMUs on commuter services and the PRM compliant stock on GA may end up having to stay on longer which is going to have implications on other TOCs who won't get cascaded stock they are depending on. Hopefully Bombardier get their house in order but I don't hold my breath.

Indeed. Too many unknowns at this stage to be relaxed about DMU's going abroad.

 

[MK Tom]

Needless to say the development of bi-modes like the 319 flex units have created a situation where DMUs are becoming more redundant. We have a ton of new EMU stock (as well as DMU and LHCS) coming in which is creating more EMU stock to flex, with 455s and 321s and classes like that being considered for it, so there really won't be some massive DMU shortage. This reads to me like a great way to make sure units that aren't needed here don't languish in sidings and help out where they really are needed.

 

[yorksrob]

Needless to say the development of bi-modes like the 319 flex units have created a situation where DMUs are becoming more redundant. We have a ton of new EMU stock (as well as DMU and LHCS) coming in which is creating more EMU stock to flex, with 455s and 321s and classes like that being considered for it, so there really won't be some massive DMU shortage. This reads to me like a great way to make sure units that aren't needed here don't languish in sidings and help out where they really are needed.

Yes, that's a fair point, so long as it comes off. I'm not sure I'd be happy to take a reconditioned tube train for Leeds - Lancaster, for example over a 170 though.

I hope flex comes good, but again those are better for shorter intra-urban commuter routes, rather than longer distance. Would be ideal for my local Hallam line, but I just don't have enough certainty to be comfortable.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Needless to say the development of bi-modes like the 319 flex units have created a situation where DMUs are becoming more redundant. We have a ton of new EMU stock (as well as DMU and LHCS) coming in which is creating more EMU stock to flex, with 455s and 321s and classes like that being considered for it, so there really won't be some massive DMU shortage. This reads to me like a great way to make sure units that aren't needed here don't languish in sidings and help out where they really are needed.

I agree with what you are saying but we already know there is no medium term issue with number of trains that can run on diesel services, but there is a short term one coming.

The issue is that from 1st January 2020 there is going to be a shortage as it currently looks. This will only be for 2-3 years at most, but there is going to be a short term DMU shortage as it currently looks to bridge the gap between the PRM deadline and all the delayed orders and bi-mode stock coming on stream.

GA for instance are losing a large three figure sum of EMU carriages on 1st January 2020, and if there are not going to be enough Aventra trains, they will most likely run their bi-modes to stand in for some of the commuters. They then will not release the Class 156 and 170 fleets which are ear-marked which will leave Transport for Wales short of DMUs. There's knock on effects like this right through the rolling stock market right now, because of the incoming PRM deadline and rolling stock that is running late.

 

[hwl]

The issue is that from 1st January 2020 there is going to be a shortage as it currently looks. This will only be for 2-3 years at most, but there is going to be a short term DMU shortage as it currently looks to bridge the gap between the PRM deadline and all the delayed orders and bi-mode stock coming on stream.
GA for instance are losing a large three figure sum of EMU carriages on 1st January 2020,

DfT have already signed off the Class 466 PRM exemption recently (Ok to work in multiples with 465 post 1/1/2020 but not in their own and most Anglia EMUs have fewer issues than the 466s). The start of the exception flood gates? I suspect DfT correspondence needs to be carefully looked at along with the ORR non compliance and exemptions list...

 

[MotCO]

Surprised no-one's mentioned 230s - are these suitable for Ireland in either battery or diesel form?

 

[F Great Eastern]

DfT have already signed off the Class 466 PRM exemption recently (Ok to work in multiples with 465 post 1/1/2020 but not in their own and most Anglia EMUs have fewer issues than the 466s). The start of the exception flood gates? I suspect DfT correspondence needs to be carefully looked at along with the ORR non compliance and exemptions list...

That isn't going to be a help to GA where everything can only operate in multiple with itself.

The only way they could get around it is by getting enough 317s PRM enabled and ensuring that each non PRM compliant 317/321 is coupled to a compliant one, although that would be awkward operationally and obviously if the PRM unit failed you'd have to cancel the train rather than short forming it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Surprised no-one's mentioned 230s - are these suitable for Ireland in either battery or diesel form?

They would be pretty unpopular if used on the Commuter or Intercity lines I would suggest and be a downgrade on what is already there and they won't be used on electrified DART lines, plus they're only two car units. How many can be coupled together?

I would say that Irish Rail would ideally like 3 car units that can be coupled to an additional 3 car unit and to be of a certain standard, and the Tyne and Wear metro, Class 230 and Pacers wouldn't meet that standard.

 

[JonathanH]

That isn't going to be a help to GA where everything can only operate in multiple with itself.

The only way they could get around it is by getting enough 317s PRM enabled and ensuring that each non PRM compliant 317/321 is coupled to a compliant one, although that would be awkward operationally and obviously if the PRM unit failed you'd have to cancel the train rather than short forming it.

Assuming Renatus 321s are PRM compliant, presumably you could apply for an exemption to run other 321s in multiple with them for a short period. They seem to manage putting 321/4s at the right end of SDO trains so why not 321301-321330 in the middle.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Assuming Renatus 321s are PRM compliant, presumably you could apply for an exemption to run other 321s in multiple with them for a short period. They seem to manage putting 321/4s at the right end of SDO trains so why not 321301-321330 in the middle.

Of course if they can do that it will help, but then you're still going to have an issue with West Anglia and the 317s, because although a small number of them were supposed to get mods, I'm led to believe that basically nothing has been done due to the summer of discontent last year where there were very large amounts of short forms due to a lack of serviceable rolling stock.

 

[superalbs]

I don't see why we can't deport the 769s to Ireland!

(just a joke)

 

[Thewanderer]

Surprised no-one's mentioned 230s - are these suitable for Ireland in either battery or diesel form?

Not a hope in hell. No grandfather rights so don't meet the required standard. 185's would be the best choice (66 vehicles) and a common fleet rather a mix of 2 and 3 car 170's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with Class 185s is that they're overweight, overpowered and have an incredibly space-inefficient layout - they are basically the bodge job you get when you try to build a one-off 23m DMU on a (pretty good) 20m EMU platform. There's little they offer that Class 158s don't do better (give or take 10mph on the top speed). So if you can put 769s in at the bottom and free up 158s for other stuff, the 185s become unnecessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a hope in hell. No grandfather rights so don't meet the required standard.

Does Ireland have higher safety standards than mainland UK? I doubt something so heavily reconstructed would have grandfather rights, would it?

 

[Chester1]

Might encourage the DfT to get a move on with the decision regarding Liverpool-Norwich and TPE...

Given the relative speeds the 2 governments can act at, it is already too late for Liverpool-Norwich etc.

Liverpool-Nottingham section transferring to TPE would be a good opportunity to transfer half the Mark Vs to run it and order more 802s to replace them. Double 185s would be an improvement on double 158s but not ideal either.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The problem with Class 185s is that they're overweight, overpowered and have an incredibly space-inefficient layout - they are basically the bodge job you get when you try to build a one-off 23m DMU on a (pretty good) 20m EMU platform.

Yet the fact that they're a bodge job that is still far more reliable than anything Bombardier can offer on a pure DMU platform really says it all about the difference in build quality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool-Nottingham section transferring to TPE would be a good opportunity to transfer half the Mark Vs to run it and order more 802s to replace them. Double 185s would be an improvement on double 158s but not ideal either.

Triple 158s would be better. Order new third rail bi-modes for SWR and send the 159s up to provide the extra stock needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet the fact that they're a bodge job that is still far more reliable than anything Bombardier can offer on a pure DMU platform really says it all about the difference in build quality.

Yes, true, Siemens certainly are the best of the best at build quality and reliability (and given their origins that's no great surprise). Though modern-day Bombardier is way, way better than the *Star units were in Adtranz days.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes, true, Siemens certainly are the best of the best at build quality and reliability (and given their origins that's no great surprise). Though modern-day Bombardier is way, way better than the *Star units were in Adtranz days.

Certainly the later batches of Turbostars and Electrostars were better than the earlier ones, but given how long they were manufacturing that design for when the last batches were produced, there's something seriously wrong if that wasn't the case.

The Aventras are not showing Bombardier in the best light at the moment though.

 

[squizzler]

There is a live production line churning out 100mph 5'3" gauge DMUs in Australia. Just tag an order on to that?

V/Line VLocity

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a live production line churning out 100mph 5'3" gauge DMUs in Australia. Just tag an order on to that?

V/Line VLocity

Loading gauge is probably too big. Irish Rail is odd - tiny, UK style "narrow gauge" bodies on a wide track gauge.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is a live production line churning out 100mph 5'3" gauge DMUs in Australia. Just tag an order on to that?

V/Line VLocity

I think we should allow Bombardier to sort out the issues with the Aventra before we give them any more orders for vehicles that are not proven in the UK.

 

[dubscottie]

There is a live production line churning out 100mph 5'3" gauge DMUs in Australia. Just tag an order on to that?

V/Line VLocity

Too big. Also the UK units are only for the short/medium term until new stock is ordered and delivered.

From what I am hearing on the jungle drums here is the 185s are the preferred option.

The handy thing about ex-UK stock is it is already fitted with AWS & TPWS for working to NI.

 

[Jonny]

The ROSCOs will have to be very careful in case their trains get stuck in Eire without a customer, nor a return plan.

 

[urpert]

Can they not just fix the stock that they already have?

Funnily enough there was a discussion back on here in 2012 about bringing the Alst[h]om DMUs over here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ie-2700-class.62594/

 

[F Great Eastern]

The ROSCOs will have to be very careful in case their trains get stuck in Eire without a customer, nor a return plan.

From what I've been hearing the ROSCOS think that any use for soon to be off-lease DMU stock in the UK will only be until 2021 or 2022 at the very latest and a lot of UK TOCs don't even want to commit to that, rather take them on short leases with various options that they can choose to take up to extend them.

I would imagine that Irish Rail would offer the ROSCOS non cancellable leases until at least 2023/2024 and there is a chance they will likely be needed after that as well, so it could well be more attractive to the ROSCOS to have some secure medium term customer rather than very short term customer in the UK.

They're also likely to try and use their entry to the Irish Market to leverage their position to be involved in the new stock orders in Ireland, what with the DFT trying to bypass some of the traditional ROSCOs and quite a few believing that the DFT are purposely trying to give the ROSCOS a good kicking.

 

[Royston Vasey]

They may only get a year or two lease at most extension in the UK and then they'll be left sitting idle, when Bombardier get their house in order and the 769s and 230s are sorted from what has been discussed about Irish Rail, they would be on at very least, 4-5 year leases.

A train that hasn't even been prototyped and a noddy train... if IE have the nous to secure our high quality DMUs now because of our negligent management, good luck to them. We'll be left with the noddy trains and we'll deserve them.