• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

Status
Not open for further replies.

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
910
I suspect the whole story, after quite possibly some meetings they asked for in Dublin, has been put around by the ROSCO PR teams to encourage both TOCs and the DfT into a "buy now while stocks last" frenzy. Commercially, doing that seems quite astute.

I did think that bogies were one of the longer lead time items in rolling stock production. You are not going to get new ones made up over a weekend. It's not just a case of pressing the wheels out a bit on the axles ...

There is a real need for stock in Dublin due to the "property crisis" .

The North/South routes are likely to be steady but routes west to Laois and Carlow are seeing vast increases in passengers as its the only place people can afford to rent.

IR could outbid any UK TOC. Politically it would make sense.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NorthernSpirit

Established Member
Joined
21 Jun 2013
Messages
2,184
Just a thought why not flog the Heathrow Express class 332's to Ireland? There should be enough units there, plus spares to keep them going for a few more years and if they need extra units why not bolt a cab onto the redundant coaches? To power them, a few Ford Transit engines will do the trick if there's no overhead lines.

Win win either way.
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
910
Just a thought why not flog the Heathrow Express class 332's to Ireland? There should be enough units there, plus spares to keep them going for a few more years and if they need extra units why not bolt a cab onto the redundant coaches? To power them, a few Ford Transit engines will do the trick if there's no overhead lines.

Win win either way.

They wont get to Sligo or Rosslare though... Even with a Transit engine.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
I suspect the whole story, after quite possibly some meetings they asked for in Dublin, has been put around by the ROSCO PR teams to encourage both TOCs and the DfT into a "buy now while stocks last" frenzy. Commercially, doing that seems quite astute.

This report did not originate from a ROSCO or from someone random, it came from a very good source on the Irish Rail side and today a second source on an Irish discussion forum who has inside knowledge of Irish Rail has also suggested something very similar although they suggested that Angel offered 158 class 142 vehicles and Porterbrook 56 class 144 vehicles whereas the source I had didn't have any numbers for the pacers.

It's been well known that Irish Rail have been looking for stock for the last 12 months or more and been openly stated that the NTA were looking into leasing options from other countries as well as possibly refurbishment the Alstom units, but the later was ruled out as being uneconomic based on the costs and their potential poor reliability.
Amazing that it can be contemplated, and is financially worthwhile, running 6-car 185s on what are effectively Dublin outer suburban commuter services (which is where the growth is), where TPE are incapable of running more than 3-car sets packed with standees on Newcastle-Liverpool peak services (I couldn't even get in one at Darlington one afternoon), which thread multiple metropolitan areas, Greater Manchester alone having a population which exceeds that of Ireland.

Perhaps it's best not to drag up the whole 185 extra car charade again and the large DFT backed DMU order that was finally placed then cancelled in view of electrification projects which was then also cut back and leads us to the current trend for bi-modes?
 
Last edited:

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
Just a thought why not flog the Heathrow Express class 332's to Ireland? There should be enough units there, plus spares to keep them going for a few more years and if they need extra units why not bolt a cab onto the redundant coaches?.

Because for one, there's only one electrified line in Ireland and these units are needed for the non electrified lines primarily.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
Agreed. Dick Fearn laughed when the 170 was put forward for the ICR. Completely unsuitable for Ireland.

Personally I see the 185s being a better fit too, but the argument for the 170s is apparently that they share some parts in common with some of the existing diesel stock operated by Irish Rail.
 

dubscottie

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2010
Messages
910
Personally I see the 185s being a better fit too, but the argument for the 170s is apparently that they share some parts in common with some of the existing diesel stock operated by Irish Rail.

I will check later, but I am sure there is almost zero components in common with the current fleet and 170s. Maybe a few engine or transmission bits yes.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
I will check later, but I am sure there is almost zero components in common with the current fleet and 170s. Maybe a few engine or transmission bits yes.

The 22000 class DMUs are mechanically very similar to 170s. They show how nice a 170 could have been if they'd been given a proper Intercity style layout and built by a company that knows how to iron out rattles.....

Whichever fleet you go for though, there are a fair few hurdles you need to get through first. As well as the obvious need to widen the bogies, you need to add the Irish signalling system (CAWS, plus the new train stop system under development). One other big issue that hasn't been discussed at all here is DOO. Virtually the entire network South of the Border is DOO. Some stations have platform monitors or mirrors but a lot of the time its done by the driver looking back out the window. How well set up for this are 170s and 185s? I know they both have door controls in the cabs, but is the drivers seat positioned next to the window in such a way that the driver can safely perform Door operations?
 

bengley

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2008
Messages
1,840
The 22000 class DMUs are mechanically very similar to 170s. They show how nice a 170 could have been if they'd been given a proper Intercity style layout and built by a company that knows how to iron out rattles.....

Whichever fleet you go for though, there are a fair few hurdles you need to get through first. As well as the obvious need to widen the bogies, you need to add the Irish signalling system (CAWS, plus the new train stop system under development). One other big issue that hasn't been discussed at all here is DOO. Virtually the entire network South of the Border is DOO. Some stations have platform monitors or mirrors but a lot of the time its done by the driver looking back out the window. How well set up for this are 170s and 185s? I know they both have door controls in the cabs, but is the drivers seat positioned next to the window in such a way that the driver can safely perform Door operations?

Yeah, lookback is feasible in both units.
 

rf_ioliver

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
854
Forgive me here and this might be silly questions, but, with TfW desperately in need for trains before the new stock starts arriving in 2020+, why can't these be allocated to Wales (or any other area in the country that needs additional stock) ?

Or is it that that the ROSCOs will get more money for leasing them to Ireland and that the DfT have some odd contractual thing that doesn't allow reallocation of stock within the UK ?
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
Forgive me here and this might be silly questions, but, with TfW desperately in need for trains before the new stock starts arriving in 2020+, why can't these be allocated to Wales (or any other area in the country that needs additional stock) ?

It's previously been stated, but essentially a ROSCO is going to find a 5+ year lease to Irish Rail more attractive than a temporary stop-gap that might only last 12 months.

Besides the working assumption is that any stock transfering to Irish Rail would not be available until late 2019 or early 2020 as the 170 and 185s are still needed at least until then by their current operators.
 

class 9

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2010
Messages
948
This just sums up the state of the railway at the moment, you've got the XC Brum - Stanstead & cardiff-Brum-Nottingham routes screaming out for extra capacity & there's talk of shipping 170s off to Ireland, absolute madness.
 

53703

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
128
Send all the Pacers to Ireland, would make for some interesting photos....
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,691
Location
Scotland
This just sums up the state of the railway at the moment, you've got the XC Brum - Stanstead & cardiff-Brum-Nottingham routes screaming out for extra capacity & there's talk of shipping 170s off to Ireland
Those routes need longer trains not more of them. I suppose you could double them up, but that brings all the hassle of non-gangway multiple unit operations.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
Funny how there is apparently no shortage of DMUs and yet we are strapping engines onto redundant EMUs to create additional DMUs.

This story exemplifies the nonsense on stilts that is today's privatised and fragmented railway.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
There is one point I can see if I can be cynical and that's you're going to get some Irishman complaining about the English castoffs being used on the Irish network vs more modern stock in much the same way you get the North of England complaining about getting the castoffs from the South East of England :lol:

From a business sense it's far better to make use of the resources and if Irish Rail can give a long term contract of 5 to 6 years vs 12 to 18 months with a UK TOC then of course any sane ROSCO will go with Irish Rail.

With the Class 170s, is it better for Irish Rail to have a mix of 2 and 3 car sets or a batch of 3 or 4 car sets?

Equally if they choose the Class 185s, are they better off running them as 3 cars or run them as 6 cars but also can you reform Class 185s into 4 car sets?

Finally as I'm not too up to date on Irish Rail, if they were to move tomorrow regardless of what traction was chosen what routes would they be used to debut on to make the biggest impact to allow other services to see more seats?
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
Funny how there is apparently no shortage of DMUs and yet we are strapping engines onto redundant EMUs to create additional DMUs.

This story exemplifies the nonsense on stilts that is today's privatised and fragmented railway.

Not really. We are short of budget DMUs like 150s not regional DMUs like the 170s and 185s. The 769s are going to run services currently run by Pacers and 150s. 185s are tailored to the routes they are currently operating and are not suitable for long term use for other operators. Northern might benefit from using 185s for a few months after the PRM deadline but if they need more regional stock it is much better value to order extra 195s, which is why they have recently ordered 3 more. CrossCountry rolling stock situation is a mess full stop, partly due to the franchise system and partly because the timetables cannot be altered for different stock.

Any BR2 would be expected to maximise rolling stock use like ROSCOs do now. Someone in the DfT would be pressuring them to sign a long term lease with IR to avoid the risk of them being sat idle once the PRM stuff is sorted, instead of making some money.
 

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
The 185s would be the best bet.

The plan is to concentrate all the 22000 on services out of Heuston. The Portarlington - Heuston section is very overcrowded in the peaks and numbers are going to rise.

Has this been confirmed? I know some of us over here in ireland who follow railway matters have had a feeling for a long time that keeping 22000s on the heuston side only was a likely aspiration or even the plan, but nothing has ever been confirmed for definite, but i wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be true.

The units from the UK will be used on the Sligo & Rosslare InterCity services.

again is this confirmed? I'm sure they would be better then the random generator that can see either long distance services out of connolly get decent comfort or the extreme opposite, so they would be welcomed either way.

The 2700 units are knackered and they are also banned from running in multiple south of Bray so they could not be used on the Rosslare services anyway.

from what i have heard apparently it was an absolute job to keep them going while they operated the line, so even if they could work in multiple south of bray they would have had to be moved on eventually. apparently canceled services were regular, at least for a time, all though i was lucky to not experience any myself thankfully. they seemed to settle down fine when they went to limerick depot from what i understand though, mind you the routes out of there wouldn't be taxing for them unlike dublin suburban or long distance routes especially the rosslare line. Passengers on that line hated them anyway and what replaced them until the 22000s came wasn't any better and even then 22000 operation isn't 100%.
 
Last edited:

DT611

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
464
Does IE still have any locos and generator vans? There's a few Mk2s that have just been released by Northern... :idea:;)

they have no generator vans spair. they have a couple of mk3 vans that operate on the enterprise however. the locos they have operate a mix of freight, the belfast services and i think most cork services. They have some locos in storage but they are only suitable for freight but would need a lot of work to make them operational as they have been out of service for a long time.
 

diffident

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2018
Messages
307
Location
West Midlands
Those routes need longer trains not more of them. I suppose you could double them up, but that brings all the hassle of non-gangway multiple unit operations.

Those routes need both longer trains, AND more of them.... I've been a long-time complainer about the state of Gloucester to Birmingham runs being horrendously overcrowded and very regularly just a 2-car 170 turning up for what could comfortably fill a 220.

On the Ireland subject. If they need 170's, then no problem, as long as bigger and better replacements are operating in their place before-hand.... 5-car as standard as a minimum for XC Cardiff-Nottingham's is the key.
 

diffident

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2018
Messages
307
Location
West Midlands
The problem is fitting more trains through Birmingham - the lines look pretty busy to me.

If Class 220/221's could by some miracle be cascaded to the Notts-Cardiff's then there is no reason why the 170's couldn't go to Ireland.... but what replaces the former on the core XC routes - short of HST's which isn't going to happen - sadly.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,822
Location
East Anglia
If Class 220/221's could by some miracle be cascaded to the Notts-Cardiff's then there is no reason why the 170's couldn't go to Ireland.... but what replaces the former on the core XC routes - short of HST's which isn't going to happen - sadly.
If I had a magic wand I'd bolt on an order for a fleet of say 22-24 7-car 802s to transform the Plymouth-Edinburgh route thus releasing a similar number of Voyagers.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,539
Location
Redcar
Let's try and stick to the topic at hand rather than going onto a tangent relating to rolling stock for a future CrossCountry franchise.

Thanks,
ainsworth74
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top