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Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

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PomWombat

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Conceded, but having just gotten something as new as a 170 onto Northern - it is an order of magnitude better experience than a 14x/15x if you're 6'2" - I'd hate to see them be sent off to Ireland as "unwanted here".

I'll just leave it that it's a true sign of how badly we're managing our stock in GB if we can't find a home for them on this side of the Irish Sea!
 
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xotGD

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Not really. We are short of budget DMUs like 150s not regional DMUs like the 170s and 185s. The 769s are going to run services currently run by Pacers and 150s. 185s are tailored to the routes they are currently operating and are not suitable for long term use for other operators. Northern might benefit from using 185s for a few months after the PRM deadline but if they need more regional stock it is much better value to order extra 195s, which is why they have recently ordered 3 more. CrossCountry rolling stock situation is a mess full stop, partly due to the franchise system and partly because the timetables cannot be altered for different stock.

Any BR2 would be expected to maximise rolling stock use like ROSCOs do now. Someone in the DfT would be pressuring them to sign a long term lease with IR to avoid the risk of them being sat idle once the PRM stuff is sorted, instead of making some money.
If 170s are fine for all shacks Harrogate line services then there is no reason not to use them on other local services out of Leeds. 185s are now being used on all shacks Leeds - Huddersfield services, so could certainly be used on Leeds - Nottingham and S & C services.

Exporting stock while passengers are being regularly left behind on platforms is madness.

Edit: Sorry, I posted this before reading the reminder to stay on topic.
 
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cactustwirly

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If 170s are fine for all shacks Harrogate line services then there is no reason not to use them on other local services out of Leeds. 185s are now being used on all shacks Leeds - Huddersfield services, so could certainly be used on Leeds - Nottingham and S & C services.

Exporting stock while passengers are being regularly left behind on platforms is madness.

Yes but 185s are very expensive to run, so Northern is better off ordering more 195s than using 185s.
 

squizzler

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Something occurred to me regarding re-engineering. If the trains are to have new bogies fitted it might be a good opportunity to prototype a lightweight inside-frame design so it can be debugged in time for the future orders.
 

Aictos

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Ireland is going to be going with new build stock along with this potential lease, some EMUS and bi-modes. However new build will of course take a few years to come on stream, and we are cronically short of stock as it is (we actually have been for a long time if i'm honest)

I understand this not only because Ireland needs the capacity now but also because any new build stock will of course take a few years to fully enter passenger service and if Ireland can come to a agreement that provides stability for the usage of a few UK trains then that really is best for business especially if it is a 5 to 6 year agreement rather then a short term of less then 18 months as I have said before.

The important thing is action needs to be taken now not in a few years, the other thing as well is does the UK have any other rolling stock that is 1. Not EMUs and 2. Not 14Xs that Ireland can use for the next few years?
 

edwin_m

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Something occurred to me regarding re-engineering. If the trains are to have new bogies fitted it might be a good opportunity to prototype a lightweight inside-frame design so it can be debugged in time for the future orders.
I wonder also if some current bogie designs will work with the frames spaced more widely for the wider track gauge, as the body rests on those frames via airbags which will also be further apart. The BT10s on the Mk3s were obviously produced in a broad gauge version but these have the air suspension arranged differently.
 

tbtc

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I know that lots of people want to out-cynical each other on here, but... my take on it is to wonder whether the ROSCOs would be happy with this story doing the rounds to "panic" people into tying their trains down into long(er) term leases.

We are in a situation where the ROSCOs have had a relatively lazy time of it for a generation without having to worry about much competition (relative market share between the three of them seems little changed, to my untrained eye), most responsibility for refurbishing/ upgrading stock falls to the TOCs to pay for - despite the ROSCOs knowing that the January 2020 deadline is approaching for accessibility they've been pretty reluctant to plan ahead and stump up to upgrade their own trains.

ROSCOs acting a bit like slum landlords - sweating the assets, expectant the tenants to pay for maintenance (rather than the landlord upgrading things out of their own profits). Not a great advert for capitalism. But why break sweat, why compete with the other two ROSCOs and bring prices down, since you'll all suffer. TOCs can't bring in foreign stock (because it'd be too wide for our infrastructure) - what are they going to do?

In the last couple of years, we are finally seeing competition, new entrants to the market (Hitatchi, Vivarail...) and the monopoly broken up - ROSCOs can no longer rely on the same income from their two hundred 142/143/144/153s (due to accessibility changes) - they need to shape up (which can be hard to do once you've got used to lazily banking the cheques each month without doing a lot of work).

If the Irish are sniffing around the second hand market (they can obviously bring in "narrower" UK trains, just as UK locomotives have moved overseas) then I can see the ROSCOs being keen to promote the story to try to encourage The Powers That Be to put these trains on longer leases in the UK instead.

If they really want UK trains then I'd rather we dumped the 175/180s on them - non-standard trains that are no better than what we have (and not particularly reliable), but I can see it looking politically embarrassing for TfN etc if services in Northern England continue to suffer from overcrowding whilst "our" 185s are moving abroad - that'd make for some nice cheap headlines - so can we use the "interest" of the Irish to rattle a few cages and try to get trains with guaranteed leases here (like a football agent trying to use newspaper gossip about another club to secure his player a juicy long term contract at their current team).

Certainly does the ROSCO no harm for us to be discussing this anyhow!
 

F Great Eastern

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I know that lots of people want to out-cynical each other on here, but... my take on it is to wonder whether the ROSCOs would be happy with this story doing the rounds to "panic" people into tying their trains down into long(er) term leases.

That would be a good theory if this story originated from the ROSCOs who put the rumours and speculation out there to further their own agenda.

However the topic I have posted is based both on Irish Rail openly stating in October that they would be looking to approach owners of rolling stock overseas about the prospect of leasing and the naming of the offered stock has come from sources within Ireland, who would have good track records of inside info, rather than UK or ROSCO based sources. Only this week another well respected source but un-connected to the original source has posted on another Irish forum they have heard similar from an Irish contact.

If the rumours came from UK sources or Irish Rail hadn't explicitly already suggested they were approaching the ROSCOs, I'd share the cynicism, but all the hallmarks are that the leaking of this potential deal did not come from the ROSCOs, since the Irish sources revealing them simply wouldn't have that level of inside knowledge or connections in UK ROSCOs.
 

Rob F

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I know the track gauge is wider in Ireland but is the loading gauge actually any bigger?
 

najaB

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If the rumours came from UK sources or Irish Rail hadn't explicitly already suggested they were approaching the ROSCOs, I'd share the cynicism, but all the hallmarks are that the leaking of this potential deal did not come from the ROSCOs…
That's not to say that they aren't happy these rumours are out there - genuine Irish interest or panicked UK TOCs, they stand to benefit either way.
 

F Great Eastern

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That's not to say that they aren't happy these rumours are out there - genuine Irish interest or panicked UK TOCs, they stand to benefit either way.

Oh granted, they will be happy the rumours are out there, but I don't buy the theory that they're fake news put out by the ROSCOS without any foundation.
 

hwl

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I wonder also if some current bogie designs will work with the frames spaced more widely for the wider track gauge, as the body rests on those frames via airbags which will also be further apart. The BT10s on the Mk3s were obviously produced in a broad gauge version but these have the air suspension arranged differently.
Siemens already has 5'0" (in reality 1520mm rather than 1524mm) Desiro bogies for their Russian manufacturing JV so it might not be too hard to use or modify those for 5'3" /1600mm for Ireland.
 

squizzler

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I think Bombardier have a 5'6" gauge version of the Flexx Eco (the inside-frame Aventra bogie) which they used for the Californian BART fleet. I reckon that inside frame designs are even more of a shoe-in for broad gauge tracks than with standard gauge because there is a bigger gap between the wheels to house all the stuff required for suspension, braking and traction.

I would not myself choose a Russian bogie for a new Irish fleet because I think from a technological standpoint all their product is at least a generation behind where we are in Western Europe. You would be buying old Simens Desiro tech (class 350, 444, 450) not the current Desiro (class 700) family
 

fgwrich

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The plan is to have new build trains to come on stream 2024, but capacity is realistically needed in early 2020 and by 2024 there's likely to be extra capacity needed still over anything that they potentially get from the UK as well as the potential of having to replace almost 80 EMU cars which will be approx 40 years old, despite the fact they have been very well refurbished in 2006.

There there is the plan to convert some of the commuter lines to DART which will also need new stock, so it's quite likely that any DMUs going over to Ireland will be needed post 2024.

Your comment combined with this thread has got me thinking this morning, Could this potentially set a new precedent for UK Stock potentially moving abroad? Not only will Eversholt have 22 of the 185s - which in my opinion, while I would be a little sorry to see them head across the water, I would be happy to see head over there if IE are happy to provide them with a long term future, Angel will also have 40 Class 707s to find a new home for in the next year or two. Now, with IE ultimately looking to replace the 8100 Class, Could 40 unwanted Desiro City's provide a suitable replacement - with conversion to Irish gauge / change of traction current equipment / platform extensions etc?
 

F Great Eastern

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Your comment combined with this thread has got me thinking this morning, Could this potentially set a new precedent for UK Stock potentially moving abroad? Not only will Eversholt have 22 of the 185s - which in my opinion, while I would be a little sorry to see them head across the water, I would be happy to see head over there if IE are happy to provide them with a long term future, Angel will also have 40 Class 707s to find a new home for in the next year or two. Now, with IE ultimately looking to replace the 8100 Class, Could 40 unwanted Desiro City's provide a suitable replacement - with conversion to Irish gauge / change of traction current equipment / platform extensions etc?

I think that in generally Irish Rail will still buy new, the problem currently is that it's going to be 2023/2024 before any new stock comes on line and it's been deemed uneconomical to return some of the old Alstom stock back to service, which was the initial stop-gap plan.

The 8100s are likely to carry on in service until 2023/2024 at least and perhaps longer, as it's likely that the first new stock for the DART will be for expansion rather than for replacement and as the units have been refurbished to a high standard to the point they look nowhere near their age, that's not really going to be a serious issue I would have thought.
 

hwl

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I think Bombardier have a 5'6" gauge version of the Flexx Eco (the inside-frame Aventra bogie) which they used for the Californian BART fleet. I reckon that inside frame designs are even more of a shoe-in for broad gauge tracks than with standard gauge because there is a bigger gap between the wheels to house all the stuff required for suspension, braking and traction.

I would not myself choose a Russian bogie for a new Irish fleet because I think from a technological standpoint all their product is at least a generation behind where we are in Western Europe. You would be buying old Simens Desiro tech (class 350, 444, 450) not the current Desiro (class 700) family

It isn't a new Irish fleet though it is potentially an original Desiro one. The key question is do the Desiro City bogies have the same mounting geometry (inc lateral dampers) as the Desiro family ones? If not simpler to stick to an original Desiro family design as less redesign testing and cost involved???
 

modernrail

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Is there not sense in Northern taking the 185s to replace the 158's intended for Northern Connect and then send 158's to Ireland to see out their last few years as the required stop-gap?

In general I would agree it feels very much like Northern needs further capacity and so losing units might be a blow. That said, I think many of the Northern routes requiring that capacity would be perfect for diesel enabled bi-mode 321's.
 

randyrippley

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I wonder also if some current bogie designs will work with the frames spaced more widely for the wider track gauge, as the body rests on those frames via airbags which will also be further apart. The BT10s on the Mk3s were obviously produced in a broad gauge version but these have the air suspension arranged differently.

possibly a daft idea, but on inside-frame bogies could you simply not use a wider section wheel that essentially had a spacer behind/built into it? Would have to be a disk brake design, not treads
 

dgl

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It isn't a new Irish fleet though it is potentially an original Desiro one. The key question is do the Desiro City bogies have the same mounting geometry (inc lateral dampers) as the Desiro family ones? If not simpler to stick to an original Desiro family design as less redesign testing and cost involved???
I think at one point the 444/450 fleet were to get desiro city bogies so it must be not only possible but relatively cheap to do.
 

tbtc

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That would be a good theory if this story originated from the ROSCOs who put the rumours and speculation out there to further their own agenda.

However the topic I have posted is based both on Irish Rail openly stating in October that they would be looking to approach owners of rolling stock overseas about the prospect of leasing and the naming of the offered stock has come from sources within Ireland, who would have good track records of inside info, rather than UK or ROSCO based sources. Only this week another well respected source but un-connected to the original source has posted on another Irish forum they have heard similar from an Irish contact.

If the rumours came from UK sources or Irish Rail hadn't explicitly already suggested they were approaching the ROSCOs, I'd share the cynicism, but all the hallmarks are that the leaking of this potential deal did not come from the ROSCOs, since the Irish sources revealing them simply wouldn't have that level of inside knowledge or connections in UK ROSCOs.

Oh granted, they will be happy the rumours are out there, but I don't buy the theory that they're fake news put out by the ROSCOS without any foundation.

Wait... I'm not accusing this of being "fake news", just saying that the ROSCOs will be pleased that it's being talked about (I have no insider knowledge, I am certainly not an expert on the situation in Ireland right now, I make no predictions on the future... I'm just trying to see things from a different perspective - not passing comment on the veracity of the original story - which I have no reason to doubt).
 

edwin_m

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possibly a daft idea, but on inside-frame bogies could you simply not use a wider section wheel that essentially had a spacer behind/built into it? Would have to be a disk brake design, not treads
Probably not. The weight of the train plus the forces from uneven track combine to bend the part of the axle between the wheel and the bearing (axlebox) once each way per revolution, creating a risk of metal fatigue. This "bending moment" will increase as the wheel gets further from the bearing, which is one reason why they are right next to each other. So moving the wheel out by a few inches would drastically increase the forces on the axle, requring that part of the axle to be much thicker and therefore heavier.
 

43096

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ROSCOs acting a bit like slum landlords - sweating the assets, expectant the tenants to pay for maintenance (rather than the landlord upgrading things out of their own profits). Not a great advert for capitalism. But why break sweat, why compete with the other two ROSCOs and bring prices down, since you'll all suffer. TOCs can't bring in foreign stock (because it'd be too wide for our infrastructure) - what are they going to do?
I can think of several TOCs (past and present) who would fit the template of tenant from hell - leaving the owner's asset in a deplorable condition at the end of the tenancy.
 

Mikey C

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Seems a bit slow that it would take until 2023/24 until Irish Rail could get new stock, if this has been a major issue surely they could have ordered new stock by now. It's not as if any British DMUs could be quickly moved over anyway, the bogie changes are bound to be more complicated and slower than promised anyway...
 

alangla

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Apologies for the O/T question, but is it true that a 29000 class has 8 engines for a 4 car unit? If so, I can see why a 185 doesn’t scare IE in terms of fuel consumption
 

craigybagel

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Apologies for the O/T question, but is it true that a 29000 class has 8 engines for a 4 car unit? If so, I can see why a 185 doesn’t scare IE in terms of fuel consumption

Only 4 for traction. Irish Rail used to specify their DMUs with a separate diesel powered generator on each carriage rather then have the one engine both move the train and provide power for everything else as is done in the UK. The 2600, 2800 and 29000 are all powered in this way, with the engine for traction at the drivers cab end of each carriage.
 

fgwrich

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Only 4 for traction. Irish Rail used to specify their DMUs with a separate diesel powered generator on each carriage rather then have the one engine both move the train and provide power for everything else as is done in the UK. The 2600, 2800 and 29000 are all powered in this way, with the engine for traction at the drivers cab end of each carriage.

I believe the C3Ks operated by NI Railways are similar set up as well, with the MAN engine as the prime mover and a Cummins power pack for Auxiliary systems.
 

craigybagel

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I believe the C3Ks operated by NI Railways are similar set up as well, with the MAN engine as the prime mover and a Cummins power pack for Auxiliary systems.

Indeed, and the prime mover's are similar across both the C3K and 29000 fleets. I'm not sure if NIR went for the same philosophy with their 4000 class though given the use completely different engines and transmissions, despite externally being very similar.
 

F Great Eastern

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Seems a bit slow that it would take until 2023/24 until Irish Rail could get new stock, if this has been a major issue surely they could have ordered new stock by now. It's not as if any British DMUs could be quickly moved over anyway, the bogie changes are bound to be more complicated and slower than promised anyway...

The original plan was to get 12x 2 car and 2x 1 car withdrawn Alstom 2700 class refurbished, give them a mechanical overhaul and restore them to service to plug the gap between now and the new stock being ordered. This was put out to tender in 2017, but when the bids came in there was only one bidder who was massively expensive so it was decided that it would not be cost effective to go down that route, for trains which might not be very reliable.

In any case, whilst when the tender was put out in 2017, it was deemed that 26 cars extra should help fulfill the capacity issues until new build stock could arrive in 2023, passenger growth has continued and even if they went down this expensive, poor value for money route now, it wouldn't provide enough capacity and would be questionable use of taxpayer funds.

Another option being considered, is possibly inserting extra carriages on the Intercity 22000 class by procuring approx 40 centre cars, although the issue with that, is that you're not getting any more trains, your just extending existing ones which is going to give you less operational flexibility and it's going to do only a little to actually deal with the problem on the commuter routes where the overcrowding is. The positive is it can be done by 2022.
 

cactustwirly

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I have a rather mad suggestion for IE, maybe they should take on redundant HST sets for intercity services allowing the 22000s to move to commuter services?
 
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