• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

Status
Not open for further replies.

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,011
Northern's experience on the Harrogate line shows that 100mph 170s struggle to match 75mph 150s. So, if anything, we can afford to lose some 100mph DMUs (not that I'm saying that it'd be a great thing) - what we can't afford is to be replacing any 150/156s any time soon. I wouldn't be too surprised if 150s are still running whilst 175s/180s/Voyagers start getting scrapped.
I would agree IF Northern had no new rolling stock incoming. However the introduction of the 195s and 331s will change the equation and the 150s & 156s will look even more dated. I believe even Northern have stated that once the new trains are in service (logically passenger numbers increase as many in the North have long been put off using trains by the dilapidated state of Northern's diesel fleet) attention will quickly turn to what to do with the 150s & 156s and how to modernise/replace that fleet to encourage additional passenger growth. I can certainly see 50%-75% of the 150s/156s being replaced as part of new order when the new Northern franchise is awarded in 2025/27, however the problem is whether they would need to be bi-mode given a potential ban on diesel trains during their 30-35 year lifetime in service. I generally agree that losing the 170s/185s to Ireland (temporarily anyway) wouldn't be a disaster.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
There is a concerning undercurrent in this thread. Reading it at times there seems to be an attitude of “... the Irish don’t deserve ‘our’ quality trains, so let’s just send the outdated, clapped out ones...”
Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English.

Why should we, as British rail users, put the comfort of Irish rail users before our own?

If we were thinking of buying some trains from Ireland as a stop gap, I'm sure Irish rail users would be annoyed if we took some of their most comfy and newest trains, instead of the older, more tired ones...
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
That’s not what was suggested. Its that re-gauging rollingstock is not a showstopper was the point.

Besides, why would they want to re-gauge from a superior gauge when there’s no realistic prospect of through running to anywhere with the inferior gauge? Through running, and rolling stock utilisation, for freight is why Victoria has gone down the re-gauging route.
Sorry I picked you up wrong.
Yes, re-gauging rolling stock is certainly very much possible, cost effective, and is exactly what is proposed.
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
Why should we, as British rail users, put the comfort of Irish rail users before our own?

If we were thinking of buying some trains from Ireland as a stop gap, I'm sure Irish rail users would be annoyed if we took some of their most comfy and newest trains, instead of the older, more tired ones...

The point is that by the time this stock becomes available for Iarnród Éireann/National Transport Authority to lease, the rolling stock shortfall in Britain should be addressed. There's plenty of new stock in the process of being delivered.
 

PomWombat

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2018
Messages
116
Northern's experience on the Harrogate line shows that 100mph 170s struggle to match 75mph 150s.
My gut feel? The 170s are definitely slower at getting up to speed, but have shorter dwell times - partly because peak services don't slow as much from the mix of large crowds trying to squeeze onto short-formed Pacers.

Acceleration vs service reliability... A grim experience vs comfort? I know what I'd choose.

The point is that by the time this stock becomes available for Iarnród Éireann/National Transport Authority to lease, the rolling stock shortfall in Britain should be addressed. There's plenty of new stock in the process of being delivered.

After Northern have taken their new stock, and discarded the pacers, almost two-thirds of their DMU fleet will still date back to the eighties.

I suspect there might be more of a public outcry if we're seen to be discarding stock that is 20 years newer ... Unless Northern/DfT come up with a GA-style plan for bi-modes.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,544
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I suspect there might be more of a public outcry if we're seen to be discarding stock that is 20 years newer ... Unless Northern/DfT come up with a GA-style plan for bi-modes.

If, as would be following the present trend, the new EMT franchisee bids a full fleet replacement, or at least a replacement of all pre-privatisation rolling stock other than conversions like 230s and 769s, it will be very hard to justify Northern not also being so the next time it is let.
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
My gut feel? The 170s are definitely slower at getting up to speed, but have shorter dwell times - partly because peak services don't slow as much from the mix of large crowds trying to squeeze onto short-formed Pacers.

Acceleration vs service reliability... A grim experience vs comfort? I know what I'd choose.



After Northern have taken their new stock, and discarded the pacers, almost two-thirds of their DMU fleet will still date back to the eighties.

I suspect there might be more of a public outcry if we're seen to be discarding stock that is 20 years newer ... Unless Northern/DfT come up with a GA-style plan for bi-modes.

Let’s be honest though, the 185s would not be viewed as suitable replacements for those units.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,165
Why should we, as British rail users, put the comfort of Irish rail users before our own?

If we were thinking of buying some trains from Ireland as a stop gap, I'm sure Irish rail users would be annoyed if we took some of their most comfy and newest trains, instead of the older, more tired ones...
It's a commercial transaction between a private company and a potential customer. It is nothing to do with British rail users. If the owner has no future lease for them, then they are absolutely right to pursue other opportunities.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
It's a commercial transaction between a private company and a potential customer. It is nothing to do with British rail users. If the owner has no future lease for them, then they are absolutely right to pursue other opportunities.

I wasn't debating that, but answering this comment which seemed to be addressing it from the POV of the Irish rail user

"Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English."
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
Not at all. British Rail made decisions - they were not made by rail users.

I can't believe how many people do not seem to accept that a new BR would be under similar pressure from the government to make money as Roscos receive from their shareholders. There is no chance that the DfT would be happy with a BR2 rejecting an approach from IR while having no suitable work in 1 year for expensive regional trains. 185s would be ok for Northern as a short term fix but they are much more expensive to opperate than 170s and 195s. Eversholt can only sign leases that handover the units between October and April next year. 18 could go by 5th January 2020. If TPE can get 19 Mark V sets / 802s into service and get their 2 lent 185s back in the next year they can double Sheffield-Manchester Airport and significantly boost North TPE regardless of what Eversholt do.
 

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,019
Why is nobody considering the use of 185's to cover all services that run through the Calder Valley? They were built for Pennine runs and they are the right type of unit for Northern Connect style services. I would personally think it very logical to use them on:
York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester
York- Leeds - Bradford - Blackpool
Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Chester.

I might not have these diagrams exactly right but you get the point. These routes would surely eat up a lot of the units.

If fuel consumption is still a problem then maybe the eco mode installed a few years ago can be taken a stage further, or the trains modified to drop out an engine?

I realise that negotiations with the DafT would be required and not necessarily easy but worth a go? For me, this is the sort of thing Rail North should be batting for, and maybe they are but somehow I doubt it.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,048
Location
Macclesfield
The point is that by the time this stock becomes available for Iarnród Éireann/National Transport Authority to lease, the rolling stock shortfall in Britain should be addressed.
I don't believe that to be true. EMT's Liverpool - Norwich, particularly north and west of Nottingham, services will still be overcrowded, along with other of their regional services, such as Derby - Crewe which still often operates as a single carriage, as will Crosscountry's regional Cardiff - Nottingham and Birmingham - Leicester & Stansted services. Plus Transport for Wales' new fleets aren't due to be fully delivered until 2023, and that's assuming that they enter service on time, not something with great precedent. In addition, once Northern's Pacers are gone by my reckoning the franchise will still be operating with the bare minimum of rolling stock necessary to provide the agreed level of service (Though even that would be a luxury at present).

Granted that there will be a fairly large number of ex-WMT class 170s becoming available after the end of 2020, but with the number of potential takers these could end up spread thin and in large part there will still be plenty of stock shortages and overcrowding on unnecessarily short provincial services across Britain for another four to five years at the very least.
Why is nobody considering the use of 185's to cover all services that run through the Calder Valley? They were built for Pennine runs and they are the right type of unit for Northern Connect style services. I would personally think it very logical to use them on:
York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester
York- Leeds - Bradford - Blackpool
Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Chester.

I might not have these diagrams exactly right but you get the point. These routes would surely eat up a lot of the units.

If fuel consumption is still a problem then maybe the eco mode installed a few years ago can be taken a stage further, or the trains modified to drop out an engine?

I realise that negotiations with the DafT would be required and not necessarily easy but worth a go? For me, this is the sort of thing Rail North should be batting for, and maybe they are but somehow I doubt it.
This has seemed eminently sensible to me for some time. Northern's franchise agreement calls for an additional 18 x 2-car class 170 equivalents to enter the franchise during 2022, it's a pity a case can't be made for a similar number of 3-car units to enter the franchise two years earlier instead. It frustrates me that revenue, subsidy and premium profiles are so tightly constrained by the DfT that there is no leeway at all for franchisees to make improvements above the minimum required that would be of benefit to passengers. Though then again, where is the incentive for franchisees to do so even if they could?
 
Last edited:

modernrail

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2015
Messages
1,019
Can anybody remind me of the plan for the skip-stop services on the main TP north route once the new TP stock is all in place? Is it for them to continue using 185's? If so, I would have thought the Calder Valley argument is even stronger as it would keep all the 185's in the same purpose built depots they are in now, which surely provides a cost saving overall against needing to extend capacity in other non-specialist depots when any 170 or equivalents are in place.

Also, is there anything in the public domain from Eire about their desire to look at the 185's. I couldn't see anything on the thread. If anybody has a link I would really appreciate you sending it to me/posting it.
 
Last edited:

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
I'm a bit surprised the ROSCOs haven't tried to sell the MK3s.
It's not like they don't have loads of diesel locos around that could push/pull them (that aren't Class 43s). And once over there, it's likely it'll be the last use out of them, so doesn't matter if they're rebuilt to non-standard.

Not PRM worthy, no, but as a stop gap...
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,543
Location
Redcar
Reminder that this thread isn't for general discussion of various timetable changes it is for discusson of the prospective operation of 170s/185s by Irish Rail. Please ensure future posts stay on topic otherwise they are liable for deletion.
 

Jonny

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,562
I'm a bit surprised the ROSCOs haven't tried to sell the MK3s.
It's not like they don't have loads of diesel locos around that could push/pull them (that aren't Class 43s). And once over there, it's likely it'll be the last use out of them, so doesn't matter if they're rebuilt to non-standard.

Not PRM worthy, no, but as a stop gap...

Also the Pacers and Adelantes could be got rid of at above scrap value to Ireland (at least the Hull Trains ones, maybe the others if reliability is an issue). Let the Irish eat cake ride Pacers and Adelantes. Anyone for a spare. re-gauged HST?

Also, the PEP-derived units with pans are going spare; as they have a 750 VDC bus could the transformer be replaced with a reasonably priced DC-DC voltage converter to use 1500VDC instead of 25 kVAC?
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
The pacers are of zero use in Ireland as what’s needed are medium distance high capacity and high speed units - hence the 185s are ideal.

Unreliable 180s are equally not an option.

So let’s stop this rather patronising nonsense right now and be practical about what is needed.

If they’re not available so be it but suggesting sending trains that don’t meet what’s required is stupid.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,355
The pacers are of zero use in Ireland as what’s needed are medium distance high capacity and high speed units - hence the 185s are ideal.

Unreliable 180s are equally not an option.

So let’s stop this rather patronising nonsense right now and be practical about what is needed.

If they’re not available so be it but suggesting sending trains that don’t meet what’s required is stupid.
Completely agreed. Ireland has also had enough of bad quality Alstom units of the same vintage as the 180s so won't touch Alstom with a barge pole
 

alangla

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2018
Messages
1,178
Location
Glasgow
Anyone for a spare. re-gauged HST?
This post got me thinking about whether the Aussie XPTs were standard or broad gauge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_XPT Says they’re standard, but I then saw the comment about building metre gauge Bo-Bo-Bo power cars. That’s an extreme regaguing if ever there was one. Didn’t happen in the end, obviously. You do, of course, get metre gauge 158s
 

Emblematic

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2013
Messages
659
This post got me thinking about whether the Aussie XPTs were standard or broad gauge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_XPT Says they’re standard, but I then saw the comment about building metre gauge Bo-Bo-Bo power cars. That’s an extreme regaguing if ever there was one. Didn’t happen in the end, obviously. You do, of course, get metre gauge 158s
Definitely standard gauge. NSW is the mainstay of standard gauge in Australia (purely by accident, if you read the history, it's a true comedy of errors!) Most other states are predominantly broad (Irish) or narrow gauges, with interstate mainly now standard gauge and a mish mash of mixed gauge and gauge conversion projects in various places. If you want to do a gauge conversion, Australia will have as much experience as anyone.
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
Latest information on this, is that it looks unlikely to happen now.

The ROSCOs have said due to delays in a number of replacement fleets being delivered to the UK, the 170s and 185s earmarked for transfer to Irish Rail may now not finish their work in the UK until mid 2020 rather than Dec 2019 and they cannot rule out further slippage, which means that Irish Rail are said to now find the proposals less attractive.
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,050
There is a concerning undercurrent in this thread. Reading it at times there seems to be an attitude of “... the Irish don’t deserve ‘our’ quality trains, so let’s just send the outdated, clapped out ones...”
Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English.

As for some of the claptrap about changing bogies due to the different gauges, the State of Victoria has gradually been re-gauging from broad to standard, with the associated re-gauging of rolling stock, and I’ve never heard that it’s been a technically difficult process. Emotionally difficult, for some in the case of R766, but not technically.
With the best will in the world why in God's name would UK individuals prioritise the comfort of travellers in Ireland over our own. Any politicians who allow that will be crucified. Ireland has an extant shortage and linited sources of short-term supply available and bluntly beggers cannot be choosers. Use of older trains for a few years should be no more of an issue the other side of the Irish Sea than it is here!
 
Last edited:

Brissle Girl

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2018
Messages
2,486
With the best will in the world why in God's name would UK individuals prioritise the comfort of travellers in Ireland over our own. You have limited sources of short-term supply available. Use of older trains for a few years should be no more of an issue the other side of the Irish Sea than it is here!
Because the leasing companies will go wherever they can get the best price for their assets. If they did go (which thankfully is apparently less likely) then the question to be asked would be why our government, which effectively controls the demand of rolling stock in the UK, didn't see fit to find an appropriate use for them.
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,811
Location
Dublin
With the best will in the world why in God's name would UK individuals prioritise the comfort of travellers in Ireland over our own. Any politicians who allow that will be crucified. Ireland has an extant shortage and linited sources of short-term supply available and bluntly beggers cannot be choosers. Use of older trains for a few years should be no more of an issue the other side of the Irish Sea than it is here!
The issue in Ireland is not older trains, but a lack of sufficient rolling stock.
 

cj_1985

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
710
Because the leasing companies will go wherever they can get the best price for their assets. If they did go (which thankfully is apparently less likely) then the question to be asked would be why our government, which effectively controls the demand of rolling stock in the UK, didn't see fit to find an appropriate use for them.

Because as we all know DfT NEVER interferes with an operators decisions :rolleyes:
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,580
Location
East Anglia
The wording of that tender would seem to rule out the 170s, because there likely wouldn't be enough of them available to make up the numbers and it also seems to suggest that only 3 or 4 car units will be considered.

Interesting that they're offering a lease of at least seven years and even indicate that they are considering purchasing the units in some way, which is no doubt dependent on their price. The pound signs will be lighting up at the ROSCOS, there's no doubt about that at all.

There is clearly an incentive for the ROSCOS now to say to UK TOCs that they're not going to renew the lease beyond the existing expiry dates, since they won't want to miss out on the tender that would give them 7 years of lease payments, rather than getting 6 months extra in the UK and then the assets staying idle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top