Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by F Great Eastern, 28 Dec 2018.

  1. js1000

    js1000 Member

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    I would agree IF Northern had no new rolling stock incoming. However the introduction of the 195s and 331s will change the equation and the 150s & 156s will look even more dated. I believe even Northern have stated that once the new trains are in service (logically passenger numbers increase as many in the North have long been put off using trains by the dilapidated state of Northern's diesel fleet) attention will quickly turn to what to do with the 150s & 156s and how to modernise/replace that fleet to encourage additional passenger growth. I can certainly see 50%-75% of the 150s/156s being replaced as part of new order when the new Northern franchise is awarded in 2025/27, however the problem is whether they would need to be bi-mode given a potential ban on diesel trains during their 30-35 year lifetime in service. I generally agree that losing the 170s/185s to Ireland (temporarily anyway) wouldn't be a disaster.
     
  2. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Why should we, as British rail users, put the comfort of Irish rail users before our own?

    If we were thinking of buying some trains from Ireland as a stop gap, I'm sure Irish rail users would be annoyed if we took some of their most comfy and newest trains, instead of the older, more tired ones...
     
  3. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    Sorry I picked you up wrong.
    Yes, re-gauging rolling stock is certainly very much possible, cost effective, and is exactly what is proposed.
     
  4. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    The point is that by the time this stock becomes available for Iarnród Éireann/National Transport Authority to lease, the rolling stock shortfall in Britain should be addressed. There's plenty of new stock in the process of being delivered.
     
  5. PomWombat

    PomWombat Member

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    My gut feel? The 170s are definitely slower at getting up to speed, but have shorter dwell times - partly because peak services don't slow as much from the mix of large crowds trying to squeeze onto short-formed Pacers.

    Acceleration vs service reliability... A grim experience vs comfort? I know what I'd choose.

    After Northern have taken their new stock, and discarded the pacers, almost two-thirds of their DMU fleet will still date back to the eighties.

    I suspect there might be more of a public outcry if we're seen to be discarding stock that is 20 years newer ... Unless Northern/DfT come up with a GA-style plan for bi-modes.
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    If, as would be following the present trend, the new EMT franchisee bids a full fleet replacement, or at least a replacement of all pre-privatisation rolling stock other than conversions like 230s and 769s, it will be very hard to justify Northern not also being so the next time it is let.
     
  7. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    Let’s be honest though, the 185s would not be viewed as suitable replacements for those units.
     
  8. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    It's a commercial transaction between a private company and a potential customer. It is nothing to do with British rail users. If the owner has no future lease for them, then they are absolutely right to pursue other opportunities.
     
  9. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    That says it all. Privatisation in a nutshell.
     
  10. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Not at all. British Rail made decisions - they were not made by rail users.
     
  11. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    I wasn't debating that, but answering this comment which seemed to be addressing it from the POV of the Irish rail user

    "Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English."
     
  12. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    I can't believe how many people do not seem to accept that a new BR would be under similar pressure from the government to make money as Roscos receive from their shareholders. There is no chance that the DfT would be happy with a BR2 rejecting an approach from IR while having no suitable work in 1 year for expensive regional trains. 185s would be ok for Northern as a short term fix but they are much more expensive to opperate than 170s and 195s. Eversholt can only sign leases that handover the units between October and April next year. 18 could go by 5th January 2020. If TPE can get 19 Mark V sets / 802s into service and get their 2 lent 185s back in the next year they can double Sheffield-Manchester Airport and significantly boost North TPE regardless of what Eversholt do.
     
  13. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Why is nobody considering the use of 185's to cover all services that run through the Calder Valley? They were built for Pennine runs and they are the right type of unit for Northern Connect style services. I would personally think it very logical to use them on:
    York - Leeds - Bradford - Manchester
    York- Leeds - Bradford - Blackpool
    Leeds - Bradford - Manchester - Chester.

    I might not have these diagrams exactly right but you get the point. These routes would surely eat up a lot of the units.

    If fuel consumption is still a problem then maybe the eco mode installed a few years ago can be taken a stage further, or the trains modified to drop out an engine?

    I realise that negotiations with the DafT would be required and not necessarily easy but worth a go? For me, this is the sort of thing Rail North should be batting for, and maybe they are but somehow I doubt it.
     
  14. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    I don't believe that to be true. EMT's Liverpool - Norwich, particularly north and west of Nottingham, services will still be overcrowded, along with other of their regional services, such as Derby - Crewe which still often operates as a single carriage, as will Crosscountry's regional Cardiff - Nottingham and Birmingham - Leicester & Stansted services. Plus Transport for Wales' new fleets aren't due to be fully delivered until 2023, and that's assuming that they enter service on time, not something with great precedent. In addition, once Northern's Pacers are gone by my reckoning the franchise will still be operating with the bare minimum of rolling stock necessary to provide the agreed level of service (Though even that would be a luxury at present).

    Granted that there will be a fairly large number of ex-WMT class 170s becoming available after the end of 2020, but with the number of potential takers these could end up spread thin and in large part there will still be plenty of stock shortages and overcrowding on unnecessarily short provincial services across Britain for another four to five years at the very least.
    This has seemed eminently sensible to me for some time. Northern's franchise agreement calls for an additional 18 x 2-car class 170 equivalents to enter the franchise during 2022, it's a pity a case can't be made for a similar number of 3-car units to enter the franchise two years earlier instead. It frustrates me that revenue, subsidy and premium profiles are so tightly constrained by the DfT that there is no leeway at all for franchisees to make improvements above the minimum required that would be of benefit to passengers. Though then again, where is the incentive for franchisees to do so even if they could?
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  15. modernrail

    modernrail Member

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    Can anybody remind me of the plan for the skip-stop services on the main TP north route once the new TP stock is all in place? Is it for them to continue using 185's? If so, I would have thought the Calder Valley argument is even stronger as it would keep all the 185's in the same purpose built depots they are in now, which surely provides a cost saving overall against needing to extend capacity in other non-specialist depots when any 170 or equivalents are in place.

    Also, is there anything in the public domain from Eire about their desire to look at the 185's. I couldn't see anything on the thread. If anybody has a link I would really appreciate you sending it to me/posting it.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jan 2019
  16. mushroomchow

    mushroomchow Member

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    Bring back the Turf Burner.
     
  17. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    I'm a bit surprised the ROSCOs haven't tried to sell the MK3s.
    It's not like they don't have loads of diesel locos around that could push/pull them (that aren't Class 43s). And once over there, it's likely it'll be the last use out of them, so doesn't matter if they're rebuilt to non-standard.

    Not PRM worthy, no, but as a stop gap...
     
  18. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Reminder that this thread isn't for general discussion of various timetable changes it is for discusson of the prospective operation of 170s/185s by Irish Rail. Please ensure future posts stay on topic otherwise they are liable for deletion.
     
  19. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Also the Pacers and Adelantes could be got rid of at above scrap value to Ireland (at least the Hull Trains ones, maybe the others if reliability is an issue). Let the Irish eat cake ride Pacers and Adelantes. Anyone for a spare. re-gauged HST?

    Also, the PEP-derived units with pans are going spare; as they have a 750 VDC bus could the transformer be replaced with a reasonably priced DC-DC voltage converter to use 1500VDC instead of 25 kVAC?
     
  20. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    The pacers are of zero use in Ireland as what’s needed are medium distance high capacity and high speed units - hence the 185s are ideal.

    Unreliable 180s are equally not an option.

    So let’s stop this rather patronising nonsense right now and be practical about what is needed.

    If they’re not available so be it but suggesting sending trains that don’t meet what’s required is stupid.
     
  21. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Completely agreed. Ireland has also had enough of bad quality Alstom units of the same vintage as the 180s so won't touch Alstom with a barge pole
     
  22. alangla

    alangla Member

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    This post got me thinking about whether the Aussie XPTs were standard or broad gauge. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_XPT Says they’re standard, but I then saw the comment about building metre gauge Bo-Bo-Bo power cars. That’s an extreme regaguing if ever there was one. Didn’t happen in the end, obviously. You do, of course, get metre gauge 158s
     
  23. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Definitely standard gauge. NSW is the mainstay of standard gauge in Australia (purely by accident, if you read the history, it's a true comedy of errors!) Most other states are predominantly broad (Irish) or narrow gauges, with interstate mainly now standard gauge and a mish mash of mixed gauge and gauge conversion projects in various places. If you want to do a gauge conversion, Australia will have as much experience as anyone.
     
  24. F Great Eastern

    F Great Eastern Established Member

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    Latest information on this, is that it looks unlikely to happen now.

    The ROSCOs have said due to delays in a number of replacement fleets being delivered to the UK, the 170s and 185s earmarked for transfer to Irish Rail may now not finish their work in the UK until mid 2020 rather than Dec 2019 and they cannot rule out further slippage, which means that Irish Rail are said to now find the proposals less attractive.
     
  25. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    With the best will in the world why in God's name would UK individuals prioritise the comfort of travellers in Ireland over our own. Any politicians who allow that will be crucified. Ireland has an extant shortage and linited sources of short-term supply available and bluntly beggers cannot be choosers. Use of older trains for a few years should be no more of an issue the other side of the Irish Sea than it is here!
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2019
  26. Brissle Girl

    Brissle Girl Member

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    Because the leasing companies will go wherever they can get the best price for their assets. If they did go (which thankfully is apparently less likely) then the question to be asked would be why our government, which effectively controls the demand of rolling stock in the UK, didn't see fit to find an appropriate use for them.
     
  27. berneyarms

    berneyarms Established Member

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    The issue in Ireland is not older trains, but a lack of sufficient rolling stock.
     
  28. cj_1985

    cj_1985 Member

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    Because as we all know DfT NEVER interferes with an operators decisions :rolleyes:
     
  29. talltim

    talltim Established Member

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  30. F Great Eastern

    F Great Eastern Established Member

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    The wording of that tender would seem to rule out the 170s, because there likely wouldn't be enough of them available to make up the numbers and it also seems to suggest that only 3 or 4 car units will be considered.

    Interesting that they're offering a lease of at least seven years and even indicate that they are considering purchasing the units in some way, which is no doubt dependent on their price. The pound signs will be lighting up at the ROSCOS, there's no doubt about that at all.

    There is clearly an incentive for the ROSCOS now to say to UK TOCs that they're not going to renew the lease beyond the existing expiry dates, since they won't want to miss out on the tender that would give them 7 years of lease payments, rather than getting 6 months extra in the UK and then the assets staying idle.
     

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