Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

edwin_m

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Delivery in February 2020 looks challenging particularly as they would have to be gauge converted by then. Do 20 units of Cl185 come off lease in time?

The wording doesn't actually rule out a fleet with all vehicles having a cab, as long as they can be formed up in 3- or 4-car sets with a cab each end.
 
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craigybagel

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The wording of that tender would seem to rule out the 170s, because there likely wouldn't be enough of them available to make up the numbers and it also seems to suggest that only 3 or 4 car units will be considered.

Interesting that they're offering a lease of at least seven years and even indicate that they are considering purchasing the units in some way, which is no doubt dependent on their price. The pound signs will be lighting up at the ROSCOS, there's no doubt about that at all.

There is clearly an incentive for the ROSCOS now to say to UK TOCs that they're not going to renew the lease beyond the existing expiry dates, since they won't want to miss out on the tender that would give them 7 years of lease payments, rather than getting 6 months extra in the UK and then the assets staying idle.
The way things are going with the value of Sterling there may well be some bargains available for countries with hard currency in March....
 

twpsaesneg

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The wording doesn't seem to rule out...... Pacers!

Someone needs to get their camel hair coat on and give them a good deal.
 

craigybagel

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How about a load of converted EMUs? Again, the timescale would be a challenge.
Very challenging given that Ireland only has about 30 miles of electrified track, which is at the wrong voltage - and as has been pointed out numerous times, it's the non electrified outer suburban routes that are crying out for extra stock.

Unless you mean EMUs converted into DMUs - in which case you only need visit the 719 thread to see how the timescale for that is working out so far!
 

Bletchleyite

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Was managed with the LEV prototype
Anything's possible with will and money - it's just a lot easier to pre-manufacture a load of compatible replacement bogies, lift the unit up, push them in and plonk it back on top, then connect things like cardan shafts up. After all, there are a number of places, e.g. the border from Romania to Moldova, where this is done to coaches (simpler than DMUs, I accept) with passengers on board on a daily basis.
 

whhistle

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However the introduction of the 195s and 331s will change the equation and the 150s & 156s will look even more dated.
While massively expensive, this is where Northern should (and perhaps the ITT should have reflected this!) have ordered a whole stock replacement - all 195s to replace all their diesels - even the 170s.

The 195s could then have been transferred to other routes if/when bi-modes were an option.
Or even better to make the diesel trains compatible of having a pantograph coach inserted.

Lots of crayon drawings here but it would be neater. This fleet then could have been the last pure-diesel stock the UK buys, and it would last for 20/30 years, so plenty of time to string more wires up here there and everywhere (apart from the MML of course!).
 

Clarence Yard

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It's well known in the industry that this is all about the 22 x 185's. There are a few cl.170's being vaguely offered around but nothing like the required number of vehicles for Ireland.

The DfT have, for months, sat on a proposal to use the 22 x 185 in this country and Eversholt, very fed up with the DfT on a number of fronts, is wanting to place them next year. So it looks as if, from the passengers point of view, the DfT have messed up yet again.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Delivery in February 2020 looks challenging particularly as they would have to be gauge converted by then. Do 20 units of Cl185 come off lease in time?

The wording doesn't actually rule out a fleet with all vehicles having a cab, as long as they can be formed up in 3- or 4-car sets with a cab each end.
Dog O'Boxes? ;)
 

Chester1

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It's well known in the industry that this is all about the 22 x 185's. There are a few cl.170's being vaguely offered around but nothing like the required number of vehicles for Ireland.

The DfT have, for months, sat on a proposal to use the 22 x 185 in this country and Eversholt, very fed up with the DfT on a number of fronts, is wanting to place them next year. So it looks as if, from the passengers point of view, the DfT have messed up yet again.
GWR wanted them as part of a direct award?

DfT should get away with it. Northern and TPE should have enough new stock in service in a years time.
 

squizzler

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The DfT have, for months, sat on a proposal to use the 22 x 185 in this country and Eversholt, very fed up with the DfT on a number of fronts, is wanting to place them next year. So it looks as if, from the passengers point of view, the DfT have messed up yet again.
Good riddance. Heavyweight track munchers which are in practice too short for today's traffic on almost any route which otherwise might justify a unit with their power.

(Grabs asbestos jacket!)
 
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Chester1

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Good riddance. Heavyweight track munchers which are in practice too short for today's traffic on almost any route which otherwise might justify a unit with their power.

(Grabs asbestos jacket!)
I agree, Northern would be better ordering extra 195s and TPE 802s for long term requirements. The only problem is that the timing will be a bit tight between December timetable change, PRM deadline and 185s going.
 

Bletchleyite

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Good riddance. Heavyweight track munchers which are in practice too short for today's traffic on almost any route which otherwise might justify a unit with their power.

(Grabs asbestos jacket!)
For all the passenger accommodation is nice (give or take the bizarre layout in which the First Class and wheelchair area are basically the wrong way round) they are overpowered and too heavy, and to be useful for things like branch lines where they'd fit well they would need engine swaps to smaller ones or one car depowering entirely. As modifications of units all seem to be hitting big issues, ordering new 195s (or ideally bi-modes for the added flexibility) is probably an easier solution to that issue.
 

Clarence Yard

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GWR wanted them as part of a direct award?

DfT should get away with it. Northern and TPE should have enough new stock in service in a years time.
Not GWR.

Whatever the merits or de-merits of the 185 stock, "letting new stock go" whilst keeping 15x vehicles that are around 20 years older is the kind of story that gets prominent press attention and makes politicians look stupid, or even more stupid than they are already.
 

NorthernSpirit

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The wording doesn't seem to rule out...... Pacers!

Someone needs to get their camel hair coat on and give them a good deal.
The Pacers should be sent to a handful of heritage railways with the rest (i.e the 142's) to Cuba who can then retire their steam stock and to Vietnam which would make a change to their wooden seated stock. Ireland should also aim for the class 153's in the short term as the engines could be taken out and the unit could then be cheaply be converted to a coach.
 
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185s are beautiful trains and im very lucky to drive these amazing units. they are very smooth trains to drive and very intelligent units.
 

HLE

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Latest information on this, is that it looks unlikely to happen now.

The ROSCOs have said due to delays in a number of replacement fleets being delivered to the UK, the 170s and 185s earmarked for transfer to Irish Rail may now not finish their work in the UK until mid 2020 rather than Dec 2019 and they cannot rule out further slippage, which means that Irish Rail are said to now find the proposals less attractive.
Good. Send them the off lease dogboxes and Pacers instead.

Stick the off lease 170's on the Liverpool - Norwich route and use the 158's on routes operated by 156/153's.
 

F Great Eastern

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Ireland should also aim for the class 153's in the short term as the engines could be taken out and the unit could then be cheaply be converted to a coach.
Good. Send them the off lease dogboxes and Pacers instead.
The Pacers have already been ruled out and 153s would not be suitable for the type of work that they would need to undertake, however much some people try and suggest these kind of units, it isn't going to happen.
 

BucksBones

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Good. Send them the off lease dogboxes and Pacers instead.

Stick the off lease 170's on the Liverpool - Norwich route and use the 158's on routes operated by 156/153's.
What a patronising post. Send them our old rubbish and they’d better be grateful?? I would hope our attitude towards Ireland had progressed somewhat beyond that.

If the 185 proposal doesn’t work out, I’m sure Irish Rail could come up with a better solution than yours all on their own.
 

craigybagel

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If the 185 proposal doesn’t work out, I’m sure Irish Rail could come up with a better solution than yours all on their own.
Indeed, as shown by the fact that most trains bought by Irish Rail over the years have been superior in many ways to their British equivalents. The only issue Irish Rail have at the moment is they don't have enough of them.

If British government policy means that no home can be found in the UK for 185s (despite an obvious need on many routes) then that's Britain's problem, not Ireland's.
 

F Great Eastern

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Indeed, as shown by the fact that most trains bought by Irish Rail over the years have been superior in many ways to their British equivalents. The only issue Irish Rail have at the moment is they don't have enough of them.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - the 8200 DART fleet saw 4-5 of years of on and off service before being mothballed and the class 2700 only managed about 12 years service before being withdrawn due to sheer unreliability,

The MK4s have poorly padded bottom seat bases and awful ride quality,

The first batch of Asian DARTs also make the 700s look like luxury for legroom.
 

craigybagel

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I wouldn't necessarily agree with that - the 8200 DART fleet saw 4-5 of years of on and off service before being mothballed and the class 2700 only managed about 12 years service before being withdrawn due to sheer unreliability,

The MK4s have poorly padded bottom seat bases and awful ride quality,

The first batch of Asian DARTs also make the 700s look like luxury for legroom.
When I posted that the Alsthom fleet were the reason I used "most" there! And the British units ordered from that company at that time were also pretty terrible - and in the case of the 180s, still are! Yes, the 8500 and 8510 units do suffer from terrible legroom, but at least that recognised that fault and specified thinner seats for the 8520s.

I don't find the MKIVs too uncomfortable and whilst the ride was bad at first they've got better over time - and it should be pointed out that the Cork line has its own issues anyway, even the MKIIIs (renowned for their ride quality) used to bounce something terrible at high speed on that route.

Irish Rail has its faults, and in many ways it is inferior to the British network, but in terms of quality of rolling stock I think they can more then hold their own.
 

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