Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

[DT611]

I have a rather mad suggestion for IE, maybe they should take on redundant HST sets for intercity services allowing the 22000s to move to commuter services?

The problem is that 22000s just aren't suited to the type of services that would be classed as commuter in ireland, as in the suburban services. They run all suburban services out of heuston currently granted, and they run some out of connolly. But Their layout + end doors among other issues does cause extra dwell times and issues with heavy loads and are low capacity compared to the likes of the 29000 which is a real people mover and is perfectly suited to suburban runs yet not so for anything long distance. It's stock with a suburban type layout that we in ireland are short of realistically. At least from what i can see anyway. If the 22000s were moved from any and all suburban runs there would be plenty of capacity for the inter city and long regional routes i think.

I must admit that hsts in ireland going down whichever lines they would be put on (all though they wouldn't get to 125 mph) really would be a site. Sadly a pipe dream though.

 

[dubscottie]

One of the problems for Irish Rail is what new stock to order. I think they were told it must be hybrid/bi-mode by Mr Ross TD.

Diesel/battery, diesel+battery+1500v DC, diesel+1500v DC+25kv AC??

Until they know what the government plans are for electrification, they are stuck.

Unfortunately "commuting" into Dublin now involves travelling great distances.

Portlaoise and Portarlington (about 95km & 78km from Dublin) are becoming the norm now that rents in and around Dublin are unaffordable.

its cheaper to do a roughly 180km round trip every day than rent in Dublin. But the rents there are going up also so people are moving still further out.

This is what is causing IR problems. The 22000 are ideal for that sort of journey however. Limited stops over long distances.

 

[Mikey C]

One of the problems for Irish Rail is what new stock to order. I think they were told it must be hybrid/bi-mode by Mr Ross TD.

Diesel/battery, diesel+battery+1500v DC, diesel+1500v DC+25kv AC??

Until they know what the government plans are for electrification, they are stuck.

Unfortunately "commuting" into Dublin now involves travelling great distances.

Portlaoise and Portarlington (about 95km & 78km from Dublin) are becoming the norm now that rents in and around Dublin are unaffordable.

its cheaper to do a roughly 180km round trip every day than rent in Dublin. But the rents there are going up also so people are moving still further out.

This is what is causing IR problems. The 22000 are ideal for that sort of journey however. Limited stops over long distances.

Bi-modes, uncertain electrification plans, people forced to commute long distances due to high rents...

Is the transport minister Chris O'Grayling

 

[DT611]

Bi-modes, uncertain electrification plans, people forced to commuter long distances due to high rents...

Is the transport minister Chris O'Grayling

No However he's certainly as much, if not more so, a complete joke of a minister as mr grayling. His name is shane ross if one wishes to look him up.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The 185s, much though they are space inefficient, are heavy and have poor fuel consumption, are excellent and comfortable units IMO (probably the best 2/3 coach DMU there is, from the passenger's perspective). There is no way in hell we should be giving them to Ireland, when there are far, far older units still expected to be running about (150s, 156s) in many years' time. It's total insanity from a passenger perspective.

Unfortunately, even though the passengers already pay the lion's share of the cost of running the railways, and continue pay an ever increasing share with fare increases, the meddling DfT is, as ever, unable to organise the proverbial in a brewery, and thus I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to lose the 185s whilst keeping the old Sprinter stock.

 

[najaB]

Unfortunately, even though the passengers already pay the lion's share of the cost of running the railways, and continue pay an ever increasing share with fare increases, the meddling DfT is, as ever, unable to organise the proverbial in a brewery, and thus I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to lose the 185s whilst keeping the old Sprinter stock.

The thing is, Sprinters are much more useful as go-anywhere units.

 

[DT611]

The 185s, much though they are space inefficient, are heavy and have poor fuel consumption, are excellent and comfortable units IMO (probably the best 2/3 coach DMU there is, from the passenger's perspective). There is no way in hell we should be giving them to Ireland, when there are far, far older units still expected to be running about (150s, 156s) in many years' time. It's total insanity from a passenger perspective.

Unfortunately, even though the passengers already pay the lion's share of the cost of running the railways, and continue pay an ever increasing share with fare increases, the meddling DfT is, as ever, unable to organise the proverbial in a brewery, and thus I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to lose the 185s whilst keeping the old Sprinter stock.

I would agree that it is certainly unfortunate for uk passengers that youngish units could be heading off to another country when there is a diesel stock shortage where they currently are and there are older units still around.
In saying that though, the 185s being space inefficient and having poor fuel consumption is i'd imagine, what would go against them in terms of finding operators wanting to operate them in the uk, and the dft being willing to force operators to take them on.
150s and 156s on the other hand while a lot older, have more flexibility, are mostly go anywhere units, and i'd imagine have lower leasing costs and possibly better fuel consumption? Which makes them saught after in the uk.
So i can see why the DFT may not be to worried about losing these particular units, however in saying that, they very much should be, as capacity is capacity. The ball is essentially now in the dft and uk operator's hands as to whether they want units coming off lease including these.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Just a thought, would it be more cost effective for Irish Rail (and its NI counterpart) to convert the islands railways to standard gauge? Which would increase flexiblity when IR are looking at buying UK stock in the future.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Irish Rail have now confirmed to Modern Railways magazine that they are in discussions for potential leases of the 170 and 185 fleets as they will not buy any diesel only trains going forward.

Just a thought, would it be more cost effective for Irish Rail (and its NI counterpart) to convert the islands railways to standard gauge? Which would increase flexiblity when IR are looking at buying UK stock in the future.

Not cost effective at all and this leasing of stock from the UK is almost certainly going to be a rare exception rather than the norm, if it goes ahead.

 

[Mikey C]

Irish Rail have now confirmed to Modern Railways magazine that they are in discussions for potential leases of the 170 and 185 fleets as they will not buy any diesel only trains going forward.


Not cost effective at all and this leasing of stock from the UK is almost certainly going to be a rare exception rather than the norm, if it goes ahead.

It can't be very cost effective though for Ireland to have to keep purchasing completely unique stock, for such a relatively small market.

 

[tbtc]

The 185s, much though they are space inefficient, are heavy and have poor fuel consumption, are excellent and comfortable units IMO (probably the best 2/3 coach DMU there is, from the passenger's perspective). There is no way in hell we should be giving them to Ireland, when there are far, far older units still expected to be running about (150s, 156s) in many years' time. It's total insanity from a passenger perspective.

Unfortunately, even though the passengers already pay the lion's share of the cost of running the railways, and continue pay an ever increasing share with fare increases, the meddling DfT is, as ever, unable to organise the proverbial in a brewery, and thus I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to lose the 185s whilst keeping the old Sprinter stock.

Given our fascination with ordering new trains for "flagship" services (e.g. the Northern 195s going on the high profile routes), we have a relative surplus of 100mph DMUs (170,171,175,185 etc) compared to basic simple 75mph DMUs capable of fast acceleration on the unglamorous routes that make up much of the "Provincial" network.

Electrification frees up (or has freed up) a number of 170s in central belt Scotland/ Chase Line etc (and 166s in the Thames Valley etc). We are getting 802s and Mk5s to replace TPE 185s (and HSTs to replace other Scottish 170s), whilst we scrap up to two hundred 75mph DMUs (Pacers/153s). We'll also have a number of 125mph 180s without much future (once HT get their 802s). Meanwhile the new East Midlands Railway franchise may be replacing their 125mph 222s before long.

Northern's experience on the Harrogate line shows that 100mph 170s struggle to match 75mph 150s.

So, if anything, we can afford to lose some 100mph DMUs (not that I'm saying that it'd be a great thing) - what we can't afford is to be replacing any 150/156s any time soon. I wouldn't be too surprised if 150s are still running whilst 175s/180s/Voyagers start getting scrapped.

 

[edwin_m]

Just a thought, would it be more cost effective for Irish Rail (and its NI counterpart) to convert the islands railways to standard gauge? Which would increase flexiblity when IR are looking at buying UK stock in the future.

It can't be very cost effective though for Ireland to have to keep purchasing completely unique stock, for such a relatively small market.

But more cost effective than having to scrap and replace their entire fleet, or at the very least replace all their running gear. Not to mention replacing all the track. And both parts of Ireland would have to agree it.

No country has opted for wholesale re-gauging since Hitler and Stalin inflicted it on the unfortunately countries caught between them. The closest has been Spain, but they have gone for complex gauge-changing trains rather than modifying their existing broad gauge network.

 

[hexagon789]

Now if only the 450s hadn't been scrapped, there would've been an instantly useable fleet of suburban trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, if anything, we can afford to lose some 100mph DMUs (not that I'm saying that it'd be a great thing) - what we can't afford is to be replacing any 150/156s any time soon. I wouldn't be too surprised if 150s are still running whilst 175s/180s/Voyagers start getting scrapped.

I think that's quite possible, but equally that 170s are too new to scrap and should instead be regeared to 75mph to gain the acceleration needed.

 

[craigybagel]

But more cost effective than having to scrap and replace their entire fleet, or at the very least replace all their running gear. Not to mention replacing all the track. And both parts of Ireland would have to agree it.

No country has opted for wholesale re-gauging since Hitler and Stalin inflicted it on the unfortunately countries caught between them. The closest has been Spain, but they have gone for complex gauge-changing trains rather than modifying their existing broad gauge network.

If you were building from scratch it would make sense to go for standard gauge - to make it cheaper to buy stock off the shelf as it were (and when the LUAS tram network was built in Dublin it was built to standard gauge for that very reason - and I suspect the Dublin metro, if it's ever built, will be standard gauge as well). But it would take decades, centuries even, to make back the cost of regauging the tracks.

Whilst the stock is mostly unique, as has been shown in the past it doesn't take a whole lot of modification to adapt units to work in Ireland - and you can see in some units (the CAF 3000 and 4000 units for NIR in particular) that many parts of the design have been used in other units around the world. I'd be surprised if the extra expense to add 6 ½ inches to the width of the bogies is really all that great. And bear in mind that even if you do deal with that - you've still got a very restrictive loading gauge that precludes the use of most standard gauge stock from around the world.

And that's before you get on to the issue of signalling and other equipment unique to Irish railways. NIR uses AWS and TPWS like the rest of the UK, but Irish Rail does not.....

 

[Jonny]

If you were building from scratch it would make sense to go for standard gauge - to make it cheaper to buy stock off the shelf as it were (and when the LUAS tram network was built in Dublin it was built to standard gauge for that very reason - and I suspect the Dublin metro, if it's ever built, will be standard gauge as well). But it would take decades, centuries even, to make back the cost of regauging the tracks.

Whilst the stock is mostly unique, as has been shown in the past it doesn't take a whole lot of modification to adapt units to work in Ireland - and you can see in some units (the CAF 3000 and 4000 units for NIR in particular) that many parts of the design have been used in other units around the world. I'd be surprised if the extra expense to add 6 ½ inches to the width of the bogies is really all that great. And bear in mind that even if you do deal with that - you've still got a very restrictive loading gauge that precludes the use of most standard gauge stock from around the world.

And that's before you get on to the issue of signalling and other equipment unique to Irish railways. NIR uses AWS and TPWS like the rest of the UK, but Irish Rail does not.....

Dual track gauge could work, although loading gauge envelopes and boarding/alighting may be an issue, but can be solved. It works in Australia.

 

[anamyd]

That seems incredibly unlikely given that the numbers stated suggest that it's the self same stock (ex-Greater Anglia) that already has an agreed lease with Transport for Wales.

Thank you, I was going to say the same thing about 170-270 to 170-273 and 170-201 to 170-208.

 

[randyrippley]

Dual track gauge could work, although loading gauge envelopes and boarding/alighting may be an issue, but can be solved. It works in Australia.

Could it? Surely there worldn't be a big enough gap between the rails. You've only got 6.5" between the two outside rail edges. Take out the width of one rail and the wheel won't fit

 

[Jonny]

Could it? Surely there worldn't be a big enough gap between the rails. You've only got 6.5" between the two outside rail edges. Take out the width of one rail and the wheel won't fit

Apparently the Australians used thinner rail on at least one part of it. Wikipedia has an associated photo of 4'8+1/2" and 5'3" rails together.

 

[craigybagel]

Now if only the 450s hadn't been scrapped, there would've been an instantly useable fleet of suburban trains

Tongue in cheek suggestion I know but they were replaced for a reason! The bodies may have been relatively modern (only dating from the 1980s) but they were on MK1 underframes and reused 70 class engines - well past their sell by date!

They were fun to travel on though.

Dual track gauge could work, although loading gauge envelopes and boarding/alighting may be an issue, but can be solved. It works in Australia.

Yes, but it would still cost a fortune.

Could it? Surely there worldn't be a big enough gap between the rails. You've only got 6.5" between the two outside rail edges. Take out the width of one rail and the wheel won't fit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge_in_Australia has a photo that proves that standard/Irish dual gauge has been done in Geelong at least, and is therefore possible, but my understanding is that the standard gauge network in Victoria runs on its own alignment parallel to the Irish gauge for the most part.

 

[Elwyn]

NIR (Northern Ireland Railways) bought some ex Gatwick Express coaches about 15 or 20 years ago and just stuck them on 5 foot 3 bogies. Didn't appear to involve a huge amount of work. They are still in use, albeit now in the hands of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RPSI) at Whitehead, near Larne.

 

[hexagon789]

Tongue in cheek suggestion I know but they were replaced for a reason! The bodies may have been relatively modern (only dating from the 1980s) but they were on MK1 underframes and reused 70 class engines - well past their sell by date!

They were fun to travel on though.

Well it was more realistic than suggesting the 80 Class, which IÉ did hire-in in the past!

 

[dubscottie]

Irish Rail have now confirmed to Modern Railways magazine that they are in discussions for potential leases of the 170 and 185 fleets as they will not buy any diesel only trains going forward.

So what my friends told me 2-3 months ago is true then!

And I wonder if the most recent info that a deal for the 185s is near will turn out to be true also.

 

[dubscottie]

NIR (Northern Ireland Railways) bought some ex Gatwick Express coaches about 15 or 20 years ago and just stuck them on 5 foot 3 bogies. Didn't appear to involve a huge amount of work. They are still in use, albeit now in the hands of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RPSI) at Whitehead, near Larne.

They used old B4 bogies from scrapped stock. The only mods were to the centre casting and the buffers had to be moved outwards a bit. The gen van was modified to suit the 750v ETH.

 

[randyrippley]

Apparently the Australians used thinner rail on at least one part of it. Wikipedia has an associated photo of 4'8+1/2" and 5'3" rails together.

that pointwork looks decidedly fragile

 

[edwin_m]

(and when the LUAS tram network was built in Dublin it was built to standard gauge for that very reason - and I suspect the Dublin metro, if it's ever built, will be standard gauge as well)

After flirting with a wider vehicle and 1500V OLE, Metro is now intended to follow the Luas technical specification and may even interwork though probably not in passenger service. So it will be 1435mm unless something changes radically.

 

[kilonewton]

There is a concerning undercurrent in this thread. Reading it at times there seems to be an attitude of “... the Irish don’t deserve ‘our’ quality trains, so let’s just send the outdated, clapped out ones...”
Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English.

As for some of the claptrap about changing bogies due to the different gauges, the State of Victoria has gradually been re-gauging from broad to standard, with the associated re-gauging of rolling stock, and I’ve never heard that it’s been a technically difficult process. Emotionally difficult, for some in the case of R766, but not technically.

 

[cav1975]

No country has opted for wholesale re-gauging since Hitler and Stalin inflicted it on the unfortunately countries caught between them. The closest has been Spain, but they have gone for complex gauge-changing trains rather than modifying their existing broad gauge network.

Virtually all of the once extensive Indian metre gauge system has been converted to broad gauge in the last twenty years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Unigauge

 

[berneyarms]

There is a concerning undercurrent in this thread. Reading it at times there seems to be an attitude of “... the Irish don’t deserve ‘our’ quality trains, so let’s just send the outdated, clapped out ones...”
Why should the Irish rail user have to endure rolling stock that is no longer good enough for the British? Or more specifically, English.

As for some of the claptrap about changing bogies due to the different gauges, the State of Victoria has gradually been re-gauging from broad to standard, with the associated re-gauging of rolling stock, and I’ve never heard that it’s been a technically difficult process. Emotionally difficult, for some in the case of R766, but not technically.

Re-gauging the Irish railway network trackwork isn't going to happen. Let's be realistic about this. The cost would be astronomical, the disruption massive, and to what end?

It simply isn't a realistic option.

It would be political suicide for Irish Rail to propose this.

 

[kilonewton]

Re-gauging the Irish railway network trackwork isn't going to happen. Let's be realistic about this. The cost would be astronomical, the disruption massive, and to what end?

It simply isn't a realistic option.

It would be political suicide for Irish Rail to propose this.

That’s not what was suggested. Its that re-gauging rollingstock is not a showstopper was the point.

Besides, why would they want to re-gauge from a superior gauge when there’s no realistic prospect of through running to anywhere with the inferior gauge? Through running, and rolling stock utilisation, for freight is why Victoria has gone down the re-gauging route.