Class 175's future?

[PHILIPE]

We should really be keeping these in the North West and trying to replace Sprinters with them, try and get TfN to agree it somehow. Fully agree with @mmh they are the comfiest of units.

They should stay in the North as they have their own dedicated Alstom Maintenance Depot at Chester. Any transfer too far away would entail a great upheavel.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are the 175s able to use SP speeds? Or even just MU speeds, which would make them more suitable for Northern than the spare 185s would be (as well as not being needlessly overpowered for anywhere other than the route they were designed for).

 

[mic505]

Personally I would cascade them to Northern and replace some of their Class 150 and 155 stock.

 

[507 001]

They should stay in the North as they have their own dedicated Alstom Maintenance Depot at Chester. Any transfer too far away would entail a great upheavel.

They’re going to have to move away from Chester anyway as that won’t be an Alstom depot for much longer IIRC.

 

[Parallel]

Also probably not the best replacement for 150s due to the door arrangements. Likely to take much longer to load/unload passengers and longer dwell times at stations. I personally think they could be used on routes that currently use 156s or 158s, and then these units can be cascaded elsewhere.

 

[LowLevel]

They're a small fleet with a whole host of structural and electrical problems with the build quality of a 1970s car. This is a shame because they have a superb passenger environment. I suspect it's about even odds as to whether they will find a new home or be scrapped.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They’re going to have to move away from Chester anyway as that won’t be an Alstom depot for much longer IIRC.

Under BR stock moved around regularly, such as the 307s and later 308s moving to Yorkshire. Yes, it was all the same organisation (though sectorisation was in full swing) so easier then than now, but still required fitters and crews to be trained on the new (to them) stock.
An upheaval yes, but not a great or insurmountable one. There's an assumption sometimes that everything is set in stone on the railway (interworked diagrams for example, or staff traction knowledge) but these things very rarely are. Eggs to Omelettes.

(Note to 507001: meant to quote the message you were responding to too. Post was supporting yours not refuting it).

 

[Philip]

Would performance and reliability suffer if they didn't have a dedicated Alstom depot for their maintenance? And would it be worthwhile building a brand new one somewhere else?

Perhaps Longsight would be a suitable home depot? If so then it'd be ideal for their deployment on either Hope Valley expresses or as a replacement for Northern Sprinters/158s.

 

[390112A]

I think perhaps Livepool Lime Street diesel services (Via Cheshire Lines) allowing the current sprinters to be cascaded elsewhere being allocated to the Edge Hill Alstom depot

Edit Would suit Oxford Road stopping services, What is there acceleration like ???

Side point: The Manchester Airport service is supposedly becoming a connect route with 195s but I would use the 175s instead as you could cascade the 195s to strengthen other services

 

[darylyates17]

I hope the 175s do find a new home post 2021/22 as they are one of my favourite DMUs yes they have had their problems but they are very comfy,have a great layout and they have a nice sound from the cooler group and the exhaust rumbling when the engines idle give them a big refurbishment and I think they could last a while yet they haven't had a full refurb since new(they only had the carpets and seat covers changed into Arriva colours First Pink is still in a lot of places.)

 

[js1000]

We should really be keeping these in the North West and trying to replace Sprinters with them, try and get TfN to agree it somehow. Fully agree with @mmh they are the comfiest of units.

Even when Northern get rid of their 102 Pacer units, they'll still have 73 of the dated, noisy and thoroughly grotty 150s in operation - units which KeolisAmey Wales are getting rid of and no doubt the first units to bite the dust on the new GWR franchise when it starts in 2020. And then not forgetting another 72 units of the 153s, 155s and 156s still in operation which are sub-par. It's mission impossible to modernise that franchise.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Even when Northern get rid of their 102 Pacer units, they'll still have 73 of the dated, noisy and thoroughly grotty 150s in operation - units which KeolisAmey Wales are getting rid of and no doubt the first units to bite the dust on the new GWR franchise when it starts in 2020. And then not forgetting another 72 units of the 153s, 155s and 156s still in operation which are sub-par. It's mission impossible to modernise that franchise.

It’s interesting that some North West routes have had three different types of new stock over the last 15 years, whereas some have had none. I can see the DfT pushing for the 175s and spare 185s to go in that direction.

 

[craigybagel]

Are the 175s able to use SP speeds? Or even just MU speeds, which would make them more suitable for Northern than the spare 185s would be (as well as not being needlessly overpowered for anywhere other than the route they were designed for).

SP no, MU yes.

They're a small fleet with a whole host of structural and electrical problems with the build quality of a 1970s car. This is a shame because they have a superb passenger environment. I suspect it's about even odds as to whether they will find a new home or be scrapped.

I'm curious as to what state they're in structurally given their troubled history. On a day to day basis they're much more reliable then 158s , so they could be a big improvement over ex BR stock, so long as there aren't any scary large problems lurking underneath....

Edit Would suit Oxford Road stopping services, What is there acceleration like ???

Side point: The Manchester Airport service is supposedly becoming a connect route with 195s but I would use the 175s instead as you could cascade the 195s to strengthen other services

Acceleration is good - I would suggest slightly better then 170s and on the rate occasions they turn up on sprinter diagrams you end up waiting time at stations. It's not just the extra speed, but the fact they can reach the line speed better - for example, between Shrewsbury and Church Stretton a 150 won't get above 60 because of the gradients. A 175 will hit linespeed (North of 75) with no issues.

With a refurb they could meet the Northern Connect specifications without any problems at all - although one issue I could see with using them on that particular route is that Network Rail aren't keen on units with end doors working through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

SP no, MU yes.



I'm curious as to what state they're in structurally given their troubled history. On a day to day basis they're much more reliable then 158s , so they could be a big improvement over ex BR stock, so long as there aren't any scary large problems lurking underneath....



Acceleration is good - I would suggest slightly better then 170s and on the rate occasions they turn up on sprinter diagrams you end up waiting time at stations. It's not just the extra speed, but the fact they can reach the line speed better - for example, between Shrewsbury and Church Stretton a 150 won't get above 60 because of the gradients. A 175 will hit linespeed (North of 75) with no issues.

With a refurb they could meet the Northern Connect specifications without any problems at all - although one issue I could see with using them on that particular route is that Network Rail aren't keen on units with end doors working through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly....

If Grayling could do the job we pay him for and get P15+16 on the way, end-doors will be less of an issue. The Mk5a sets, 802s and 397s will all have end doors and will serve those platforms, so NR might struggle to justify preventing Northern from using end-door stock.

Another possibility would be for the 175s to replace 158s on North-east Connect services. They could even be maintained alongside GCs 180s.

 

[Philip]

If Grayling could do the job we pay him for and get P15+16 on the way, end-doors will be less of an issue. The Mk5a sets, 802s and 397s will all have end doors and will serve those platforms, so NR might struggle to justify preventing Northern from using end-door stock.

Another possibility would be for the 175s to replace 158s on North-east Connect services. They could even be maintained alongside GCs 180s.

The problem may still be maintenance. Is the plan to change the Chester Alstom depot into a CAF one? If not, is there space to have two depots at Chester; one for 175s and the other for 195s?

 

[390112A]

I think you could base them at Edge Hill Alstom depot if they operated the Cheshire Lines services

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The problem may still be maintenance. Is the plan to change the Chester Alstom depot into a CAF one? If not, is there space to have two depots at Chester; one for 175s and the other for 195s?

Or just maintain them somewhere else. Train the fitters on them and the job's a good 'un. How about Heaton, seeing as the similar 180s already have some work done there.

 

[390112A]

I agree with 61653
You can maintain them somewhere else Heaton already has knowledge of similar 180s for North East connect services
Or
Liverpool is another Alstom depot for Cheshire Lines and connect services

 

[Philip]

Or just maintain them somewhere else. Train the fitters on them and the job's a good 'un. How about Heaton, seeing as the similar 180s already have some work done there.

If they were to stay based in the North West, what about Longsight? I read on here last week that one used to overnight there in their Blackpool/Cumbria days.

 

[craigybagel]

If Grayling could do the job we pay him for

Yes, but there's more chance of 142s being retractioned and fitted with electric motors for suburban services in London then that happening.

and get P15+16 on the way, end-doors will be less of an issue. The Mk5a sets, 802s and 397s will all have end doors and will serve those platforms, so NR might struggle to justify preventing Northern from using end-door stock.

True, but one of the reasons the 175s are available in the first place is an expectation that the new W&B franchise would provide stock with doors at ⅓ and ⅔ for their services through Manchester.

 

[js1000]

The easiest home would be in the North West given there is already an overlap on all but one of the Wales 175 routes and have already operated across the north without any problems under the First North Western franchise. Lladudno to Manchester Airport, Milford Haven to Piccadilly, Carmarthen to Piccadilly etc.

27 would able to get rid of the 7 155s and they could replace 158s on some routes which would then allow them to dislodge some of the 47 156s.

 

[BantamMenace]

Think they're ideal for all the Northern routes that run north of York/Preston excluding the Leeds to Morecambe/Carlisle.

Knock on consequences should result in a lot fewer 150s around the Northern network.

 

[43096]

They’re going to have to move away from Chester anyway as that won’t be an Alstom depot for much longer IIRC.

There is nothing that says Alstom have to maintain them, though. They'll move away from Chester because Wales & Borders are off-leasing them, not because Chester ceases to be an Alstom depot.

 

[mmh]

Is it true that door positions are a genuine consideration, besides what's safe, for NR? Or has it just entered into forum myth because it's been mentioned so often? All I can find is NR saying stop boards at Piccadilly are deliberately staggered.

 

[Kite159]

Is it true that door positions are a genuine consideration, besides what's safe, for NR? Or has it just entered into forum myth because it's been mentioned so often? All I can find is NR saying stop boards at Piccadilly are deliberately staggered.

I would imagine it's down to dwell times being longer with stock with end doors compared to stock with doors at thirds

 

[Elecman]

There is nothing that says Alstom have to maintain them, though. They'll move away from Chester because Wales & Borders are off-leasing them, not because Chester ceases to be an Alstom depot.

i

Chester depot is only Leased to Alstom and that lease expires in the non to distant future.

A second depot could be built at Chester in the largely unused Sidings by the Powerbox

 

[sw1ller]

What’s going to happen to Arriva train care at Crewe once the franchise ends? I know it’s a separate entity and can just carry on doing what it’s doing, but I can’t see the new W&B franchise wanting to send trains there for any reason. Is there room to make that into a new Alstom depot and maintain a number of 175s there?

 

[craigybagel]

What’s going to happen to Arriva train care at Crewe once the franchise ends? I know it’s a separate entity and can just carry on doing what it’s doing, but I can’t see the new W&B franchise wanting to send trains there for any reason. Is there room to make that into a new Alstom depot and maintain a number of 175s there?

Now that is a very interesting question. At the moment, on a normal night Crewe should see the equivalent of 15 carriages stabled every night. Of those 15, 10 (3 X 158 + 4 MKIII) are due to be replaced by the new CAF units, which are supposed to be kept at Chester. 4 (2 X 150) are due to be replaced by 230s (1 is for Bidston and is being replaced permanently, the other is for Crewe - Chester shuttle which is a temporary change until the CAF units arrive) - which there has been talk of keeping in Wrexham, and the final 1 (153) is for the Heart of Wales and due to be replaced by a 170 (which will be allocated to Canton but will need stabling somewhere overnight). It will be interesting to see whether KA decide they need to keep using Crewe for stabling (to relieve pressure and space at Chester, and cut down on ECS moves) or if it's better to concentrate everything elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would need to remove more than the first class. Three 750hp QSK19s chugging away would be a complete waste. Each set has nearly 1400 more hp than a three car 150.

De-engining the middle coach might be a good idea, but beyond that the extra HP would mean a DMU could match EMU timings, which would be beneficial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope, it's a much better idea to put metro stock on that route because, and that's why.

Why? It's not a metro route, it's a regional express.