class 320 refurb

[YorkshireBear]

i understand the logistics behind this but overall the speed in which scotrail are painting their units is slow since 2008 only about a few spt trains have been repainted

and also why is the 320 and 334s and the last few units to be repainted and why are the 150 units etc were the first to be repainted

also trains operation should be on a continuing basis in order to update the brand on their trains

they did well to paint any 150's. Considering they only operate 156 and 158 sprinters.
The 156 fleet may be under alot less pressure then the electric unit fleets, which i imagine is true due to the late delivery of the 380's. (please correct me if im wrong)

 

[cj_1985]

i understand the logistics behind this but overall the speed in which scotrail are painting their units is slow since 2008 only about a few spt trains have been repainted

and also why is the 320 and 334s and the last few units to be repainted and why are the 150 units etc were the first to be repainted

also trains operation should be on a continuing basis in order to update the brand on their trains

once again :roll:... because most of the units have recieved a repaint in the last few years... to repaint them again would be a waste of money...

let me break this down for you to understand...
since privitisation

Class 156 units have recieved a minimum of 2 liveries... the SPT units would have been repainted from orange "SPT" into carmine& cream "SPT", then again into ScotRail (scotlands railway version). the non SPT class 156s have also been repainted twice... once into national Express "ScotRail" and then again into "FSR" after 2004.

class 158s (original scotish units) have all been repainted into the national express ScotRail "Swoosh" livery and into the FSR livery... with the additional class 158s that came from Northern etc repainted into ScotRail (Scotlands railway) livery

Class 170s those delivered to ScotRail )for Express services) while under operation by National Express have been repainted into FSR, while later units were delivered in FSR livery. The class 170s that were delivered to ScotRail in SPT colours still carry that livery iirc. with a single class 170s being repainted into ScotRail (Scotlands railway) livery

Class 314s have been repainted from orange SPT into Carmine&Cream. with one unit so far repainted in ScotRail (Scotlands Railway) livery, with 4 more to follow in the imediate future and the rest to be repainted when needed

Class 318s have been repainted from orange SPT into Carmine&Cream SPT livery and then into the revised variant at their last overhaul/refurb

Class 320s have iirc been repainted from orange SPT into Carmine&Cream SPT livery and then into the revised variant and will in the next 2 years all be repainted into ScotRail (Scotlands railway) livery

Class 322s have been repainted from their various "North western trains", "Stansted Skytrain" liveries into FSR livery... and will leave the fleet before the end of this year

Class 334s have for the most part not been repainted.. with the exception of 2x units which recieved repainted cab ends, and window surrounds and were vinyled into ScotRail (Scotlands railway) for the A-B opening... the rest of the 334s will most likely be repainted when they go though their forthcoming overhaul/refurb

Class 380s have all been/are being delivered in ScotRail (Scotlands railway) livery

Mk.2 BSO, mk.2 Restaurant cars, and Mk.3 sleeper carraiges were reapinted from 2004 into FSR livery... and quite likely will remain that way for a few years yet.

the 2x DBS class 90s in FSR livery for the sleepers are outwith the control of ScotRail


overall... the Scotrail fleet have had regular repaints... and will most likely continue having regular repaints when needed... but once everything is in ScotRail (Scotlands railway) livery they will probably be repainted into that livery for however long that the livery lasts before an update
the Scotrail fleet is a fairly large one, and covers one of the (if not the) largest geographical area of any current TOC .


Edit: the class 150s that were operated by Scotrail BR, Scotrail (Nat Ex)... (and FSR for a few months before getting sent to wales) were reapinted from BR Scotrail livery into Nat Ex Scotrail "Swoosh" livery... and recieved FSR stickers to cover the NatEx "Swoosh" logos

 

[YorkshireBear]

deleted.

 

[cj_1985]

That's OK, like I said, purely paranoia, I blame the fact that I have an English exam tomorrow and instead of revising I am focusing all my brain power onto thoughts of railways and trains

going off topic for a second... when i had my english exam.. the day before it, all my brain power was focused on swimming and not sinking at the local pool ... that and not slipping and landing on my ar*e at the ice rink

 

[01jtiong]

i see that most units have had their fare share of their work done to them

however its just the time frame that bothers me and since already into the summer time table isn't most scotrail units are supposed to be moving onto their new lines to make way for the 380 when is this happening

you would think more units are currently being repainted as we speak

 

[Callum]

i see that most units have had their fare share of their work done to them

however its just the time frame that bothers me and since already into the summer time table isn't most scotrail units are supposed to be moving onto their new lines to make way for the 380 when is this happening

you would think more units are currently being repainted as we speak

I don't think Scotrail have units spare to come off service for repainting. With the late arrival into service of the 380's and the 334's needed on Airdrie-Bathgate, I'm sure I've somewhere that some services which should be 6 car are operating as 3 cars? Eventually EVERY Scotrail unit will be in the new livery, in the meantime Scotrail are doing their best with limited resources.

 

[cj_1985]

i see that most units have had their fare share of their work done to them

however its just the time frame that bothers me and since already into the summer time table isn't most scotrail units are supposed to be moving onto their new lines to make way for the 380 when is this happening

you would think more units are currently being repainted as we speak

why would more units be getting painted though...
as someone else said before the class 380s are additions to the fleet and are not actually leading to other units being sent away for scrap (like when the class 334s entered service "eventually"... the class 303s were withdrawn and scrapped with the exception of a single 3x car unit using carraiges from 2x different units)
the class 380s are just displacing units to work on other routes or sent to other operators... so until the full class 380 fleet eventually enter service, there is no slack... even once they are in service the class 334s will start an overhaul/refresh/refurb later this year, along with class 170s (most probably the earliest batch) based on information from the www.scot-rail.co.uk online community (i forget who posted the info, and when i read it... i am NOT claiming the information is/was mine) so any slack that exists.. will be used covering for units in overhaul/refresh/refurb... at which time they will probably be repainted

 

[01jtiong]

fair enough however one would think that with more 380 entering service then the fleet that was replaced by the 380 would be repainted and the 334 repaint would be speed up more

units should just be repainted to reflect the brand regardless of cost, time, labour etc

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am currently dealing with re-branding for a small company. The staff and the directors care about it and drool over options. The public dont give a toss. Those that do recognise the existing brand will probably puzzle why the change :roll:.

People use trains because they run on rails between stations as opposed to busses or planes. They don't make their choice based on the colour of the damn thing. they go on price, convenience, reliability and availability (not even safety). They do like them to be clean so if they are tatty they get painted and its usually in the laterst flavour of the month.

If I had enough money to spend on changing the colour of lots of trains I would spend it on extra carriages as that is what the customer really cares about. The shareholders would sack you for wasting money on unecessary paint jobs.

 

[cj_1985]

fair enough however one would think that with more 380 entering service then the fleet that was replaced by the 380 would be repainted and the 334 repaint would be speed up more

units should just be repainted to reflect the brand regardless of cost, time, labour etc

the class 334 that are being displaced are needed ASAP to operate the full A-B timetable as opposed to the partial timetable operated at the moment... so not enough slack there to send several class 334 units for repaint when they will recieve attention from later int he year. and the class 320s being displaced are being refurbished and will eventually be used to cover for the class 334s on their former routes. again units are being/will be refurbished and repainted as they pass through works... once enough class 380s are in service and have enough drivers trained the 322s will be shipped off to Northern


:roll:you really cant grasp the real life situation can you... no matter how much you or anyone else may want to... units cant just be repainted willy nilly... ScotRail has a set timetable to operate... that timetable is used by passengers.. who pay for travel.... no trains, no passengers... no passengers, no revenue

as has been explained units are in the process of being refurbished/repainted/overhauled... while others have an overhaul/refurbishment planned to begin in the near future that will lead to more units in the new livery...

 

[01jtiong]

scotrail fleet to be refurb just takes long thats all and its time that the company can't afford to waste

other rail operators do their repaint efficiently without hassle like east coast virgin, cross country and TP express

those rail companies update its units by repainting their fleet on a continuos basis

even though scotrail only does its units when its needs to, it should go ahead anyway regardless

 

[Dreadnought]

I came on this thread to see how the Class 320 refurb program was progressing and all I get is a load of froth about paint! Its even worse than when DB / GBRf paint locos in new liveries!!

 

[01jtiong]

the paint job is the upmost important for any brand to represent the company thus the paint job takes priority over everything else

its worth investing into painting trains and those who say wasting money and time painting trains is not worth doing have no idea in term of brand and marketing and image of scotrail

pure and simple

 

[cj_1985]

the paint job is the upmost important for any brand to represent the company thus the paint job takes priority over everything else

its worth investing into painting trains and those who say wasting money and time painting trains is not worth doing have no idea in term of brand and marketing and image of scotrail

pure and simple

... and how many rail businesses... have you run?
or even any type of businenss?

if you had you would understand the concept of budgets, and quality of service as oposed to solely quality of image

 

[swidnod]

Hi Gang;

Of course, if you repaint or revinyl the fleet quickly, then people will moan and mump about the railway being too samey and no variety and everyone will be out with their digi camera to record the last Carmine & cream 320/334 etc. It was just the same when Strathclyde Red went and became extinct. It is/was also the same with the last 86s and 90s running around in Triple Grey.

I think that a rolling programme of whatever timescale/cost benefit etc is probably best for everyone but the livery frother!!!

Just to add my two-pennorth, how about when the decision come about the remaining 9 Class 314s, do 3 in Blue/grey Transclyde, 3 in Strathclyde Red and 3 in a fresh coat of Carmine & Cream. Bit like the 101s used to be...a mixed canvas of liveries.

Later;
Swidnod

 

[01jtiong]

actually I do understand coming from senior management level and know that marketing and brand awareness is importance therefore If I see that our company has a new brand image therefore i expect it to be rolled out across the entire company product/service

For scotrail surly budget is no object when it comes to repainting even though money is tight they can go ahead anyway

What I am trying to grasp the fact that many businesses, when they have a new brand/logo refresh automatically rolled out across their products/services regardless of budget, that is something we do at the company i work for

the same goes for scotrail they have their brand refreshed and rolled out across their products website/leaflet/boards/ada etc
as for their trains some but not all at a slower pace

i for one would hurry up the process regardless of manpower/money etc and all these units just hurry up and do it already

Here an idea scotrail should hurry up their refurb program and after reading everyone's else comments and taken them on board here is a compiled reason for this:

the scotrail company should go to the govt or whoever run the operation and ask for a cash injection or govt funding to pay extra for the repaint of trains and if need be come out of tax payer funds then so be it

create more jobs targeted to those who want a job in painting train units thus solving labour costs

purchase cheaper raw material thus reducing costs when repainting the trains

invest or rebuild or do something about those depots in order to remove them of dust i.e hire out a dust free hangar somewhere that no body wants and use that for repainting
or find a dust free depot/hangar in the UK somewhere and use that

take all the trains out of service during the night and only use those trains that are in saltire look, preferably during the night and winter months
to increase the revenue from all that money spent on paint they push ad revenue/invest more in shares/shareholders would likely invest in scotrail knowing the fact that they are getting a return on their investment/

in order to get back the train into service persuade the passengers that in the long run the trains are being improved for their benefit rather than short run solution
educate customers on that brand identity is more important than actual train services

basically find cheaper contractors/hire out depots/hangars at a cheaper rate and find cheaper suppliers that will provide low cost paint
and reduce the pay for the drivers and increase in staff/driver training at no expense

 

[YorkshireBear]

k ill tell you what i'll give scotrail a ring see if they dont mind reducing there service for a while and reducing maintenance on units so they can all be in same livery?

and while im at it, ill ring the PM and ask him if he doesnt mind taking a little more funding out of public services so we can quickly repaint some trains.

I think the answer youll get from both rhimes with duck cough

 

[cj_1985]

2 things...

where should the money come from for the repaint since (as i've already pointed out) there is a limited amount of funds available... so if you have very deep pockets full of money maybe you could invest some of it, if you think it will make a difference

and secondly... once again.. the decision Not to repaint units/stock before it needs a repaint was made by Transport Scotland... which is part of the scottish government who has final say.

so its not a FSR decision... its a decision.. made by the government

 

[Blindtraveler]

And a point worth noting also is that this particular repaint isnt just a rebrand for a few years til the franchise changes, this is the Scotrail Scotlands railway brand which will be with us for the forseeable. Its going long term to cost opperators less, or rather allow there own budgets to be better spent on improvements.

Scotrail in its current form is the best its ever been and first have delivered many of the things they said they would including a qualitty mid life refit of the 320's which is what I believe this thread is about?

 

[01jtiong]

then why doesn't someone from the govt come down here himself and have a good look at the current units at spt colors possibly would say that they need a repaint to fit the scotrail saltire brand in order to keep up with the company

 

[sprinterguy]

I came on this thread to see how the Class 320 refurb program was progressing and all I get is a load of froth about paint! Its even worse than when DB / GBRf paint locos in new liveries!!

Indeed. It has been cluttered up a fair bit (including by me in part, apologies). Perhaps it would be worth a mod splitting the last couple of pages into a "livery froth" thread, or possibly just deleting these bits altogether, given the rather futile cyclical nature of the questions and responses.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

then why doesn't someone from the govt come down here himself and have a good look at the current units at spt colors possibly would say that they need a repaint to fit the scotrail saltire brand in order to keep up with the company

Because it really isn't necessary, or economical, to do so.

 

[01jtiong]

what do you economical to do so

job creation would be importance so hiring staff to paint the train seems feasible to do so

 

[sprinterguy]

A mass repaint of the Scotrail fleet would be uneconomical due to the lost revenue that would result from trains being out of service for an unnecessary repaint, while costs are incurred by employing additional painters to do the work. Modern two pack paint finishes applied to trains have a lifespan of ten to fifteen years (which is why vinyl livery wraps are so in vogue these days with the ever changing franchises); repainting more often than that, especially if it does not coincide with other more drastic work such as an overhaul or refurbishment, is overkill, and an unnecessary cost. A cost to First Group, as they have to fund the repainting project, and a cost to the DfT/Transport for Scotland who pay out subsidies to First Scotrail.

 

[cj_1985]

then why doesn't someone from the govt come down here himself and have a good look at the current units at spt colors possibly would say that they need a repaint to fit the scotrail saltire brand in order to keep up with the company

do you honestly think that Transport Scotland are not keeping an eye on and taking part in decisions being made regarding the ScotRail franchise/operation... they already set the livery specification, interior paint colour/s, fabric colours etc...

I came on this thread to see how the Class 320 refurb program was progressing and all I get is a load of froth about paint! Its even worse than when DB / GBRf paint locos in new liveries!!

i too am sorry for allowing my posts to go considerably off topic... i certainly didnt intend to ruin the thread for others

 

[01jtiong]

if the cost incurred to first group then could they get back the revenue through other streams like shares, govt funding/ finding a cheaper solution

if costs is their main concern then use what budget they have and use a cheaper method of painting the trains then the use the money to be spent on more units that need attention

if scotrail are worried of money then the govt would support any funding needed to paint the units regardless of external forces,

at the end of it all the boss of scotrail has final say not the govt though they are in charge but the boss has final say so old units need attention first so repaint needs to be done what ever people say

one another note is anyone at don-caster or wherever this 320 is being refurbished/re-liveried and should someone be at that place taking photos right now, we want to see it what is be being done

 

[First ScotRail]

then why doesn't someone from the govt come down here himself and have a good look at the current units at spt colors possibly would say that they need a repaint to fit the scotrail saltire brand in order to keep up with the company

Do you not think TS and SR staff use the trains all the time, MSPs etc etc.

Its stated the roll out of the brand will be over time, and in line with the maintenance schedule and this will prolong the roll out especially given some units were not long ago painted in First colours.

The new brand is settling in over time and that was one of the purposes to build knowledge slowly so people can get used to it. Many stations across the former SPT region are now in SR colours and the number of stations in SR colours is increasing fast!!

 

[01jtiong]

hence why that had to happen

I just don't like the waiting thats all and for units to be slowly painted is a long process

right now i just hope that the 320 is released this sunday and the fact the delays are making things worse for everyone I mean why the delays is it so hard to do some thing right without screwing things up

the sooner the 320 is finished another unit can go into production either a 314 or a a 320 etc the sooner it comes out the sooner more units can be done

also the topic of contracting hangars/depots for the work to begin surly there are tones of depots across the UK therefore while waiting for the unit to be done could it be easier to send another unit to an depot/hangar to be done like get another contractor and send the unit to other depot somewhere in the UK so to speed up refurb program

 

[Blindtraveler]

Could a mod please split the last 2 or 3 paint related pages off into a 'scotrail scotlands railway brand' thread and allow this one to return to its propper purpose? thanks in advance!

 

[YorkshireBear]

how has he not stopped yet, im sure between us weve proved him wrong in every post :/

 

[Blindtraveler]

all quiet so far lol. No offence intended to anybody I should point out