Class 345 progress

Snow1964

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@samuelmorris + @JonathanH

1. Extra 7cars is short term measure till they get ETCS + some software / Heathrow Tunnels sorted at which point more 9car are needed, but this should be easily managed given the 9cars floating around OOC. It would be sensible to go 9car on the current 7car western routes get them bedded in then go for Heathrow branch to de-risk things a bit.
2. As far as it understand it the newly shortened 7car going east was to do with the Ilford being practised in bedding 7car units in reliably and getting milage in at quicker rate than out west. It also sent bedded in units out west which might highlight what are train vs infrastructure issues better and help with snagging.
3. With the big opening phases 2.5 years behind lots of 9cars needed for mid 2021 and Abbey Wood -Paddington opening as well as all the testing before hand (realistically 8-10 test units) after this there isn't much float as they are already running the Reading/Maidenhead routes with 345s which wasn't part of the original plan
As I understand it (and it depends on software reliability and certification), plan is to operate the West side services as 9car, the last TfL Board papers I read suggested a target of Mar-Apr 2020

The 315s are needed for the transition whilst Liverpool Street platforms 16-18 cannot take longer trains. I am not aware of any physical reason why they could not be parked in the sidings instead of 345s until this transition period starts, but maybe something in leasing arrangements is stopping a temporary substitution to 345s. Probably need to keep at least one pair of 315s in use to avoid staff lapsing on type training.

It appears the (revised) plan is to instigate the Stratford-Whitechapel section with summer timetable change and the Paddington connection 6 months later with December timetable change. Obviously the tunnel section is self contained so can start any date. I'm not clear why it needs to match National timetable change dates unless the Eastern and Western services are not currently operating to the through timings at the local stations (which I find hard to believe in West as virtually every train changed times in December 2019, although I could understand East timings not being final)
 
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hwl

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Obviously the tunnel section is self contained so can start any date. I'm not clear why it needs to match National timetable change dates unless the Eastern and Western services are not currently operating to the through timings at the local stations (which I find hard to believe in West as virtually every train changed times in December 2019, although I could understand East timings not being final)
After Abbey Wood - Paddington start 4 (bare min.) - 6months needed to:
- bed core section including stations, staff and any snagging/changes in the light of experience
- after things have started to settle in more GEML driver training in core (Shenfield services effectively never go west of Paddington apart from a few per day...)

Hence it roughly but doesn't necessarily need to align with the May 2021 TT change due to min. 4m gap.


Everything is effectively right shifted by 2.5 years

Phase 3 Abbey Wood - Paddington ~"May" 2021
Phase 4 Shenfield - Paddington December 2021
Phase 5B "through Paddington" May 2022
 

Trailfinder

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For the last two Sundays, a unit has been shuttling to and fro between the Crossrail Depot Line at Ladbroke Grove and the Royal Oak portal. I guess they are testing the transition between CBTC and TPWS.
On Open Train Times, berths on the adjacent lines 5 and 6 are showing SPZ (Signalling Protected Zone ?).
 

swt_passenger

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Something I don’t recall being mentioned. Are the Heathrow T2/3 and T4 platforms still slightly shorter than a 9 car 345? 195m as opposed to 217m at T5, according to the online sectional appendix.

Is this going to be dealt with by ASDO, or can the trains stop with both cabs off the platform ends?
 

StewLane

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Saw a class 345 vehicle on the back of a lorry heading north on M1 after junction 25 around lunchtime. As I was driving I could not take the number.
Any idea why it should be heading north and not south?
 

hwl

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Saw a class 345 vehicle on the back of a lorry heading north on M1 after junction 25 around lunchtime. As I was driving I could not take the number.
Any idea why it should be heading north and not south?
Probably spare 8th + 9th cars heading for storage at Worksop (with lots of others)
 

Peter Bonner

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Saw a class 345 vehicle on the back of a lorry heading north on M1 after junction 25 around lunchtime. As I was driving I could not take the number.
Any idea why it should be heading north and not south?
Probably its on its way to Worksop. Wd love to have full list of the 2 car sections stored there. Saw a few there in mid Nov so guess there are more there now.
 

goldenarrow

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Something I don’t recall being mentioned. Are the Heathrow T2/3 and T4 platforms still slightly shorter than a 9 car 345? 195m as opposed to 217m at T5, according to the online sectional appendix.

Is this going to be dealt with by ASDO, or can the trains stop with both cabs off the platform ends?
Leading cabs will stop in the tunnel from the passenger perspective as all HEX and XR services do at the moment. The ramp is actually quite a bit further away, it's just hidden by a false headwall with OPO monitors behind that too.

Tolerances for the 332's operating in nine car formation are close to 200m with no SDO so I think the 345's will be fine, the tests I've witnessed personally were all non-stoppers at 2&3 so can't comment definitively.
 

swt_passenger

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Both cabs will stop in the tunnel from the passenger perspective as all HEX and XR services do at the moment. The ramp is actually quite a bit further away, it's just hidden by a false headwall with OPO monitors behind that too.

Tolerances for the 332's operating in nine car formation are close to 200m with no SDO so I think the 345's are fine, the tests I've witnessed personally were all non-stoppers at 2&3 so couldn't comment definitive.
Thanks for the detailed reply.
 

kevin_roche

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Can 7-cars handle the new signalling at Heathrow, or is that something that requires the fully-integrated software?
Heathrow trips require ETCS as the 345s don't have the GW-ATP. I think the current configuration of 7 car units don't have ETCS available. I saw a mention by Mark Wild that the transitions between ETCS and TPWS were working. I think there is a need to prove the latest software version before they run 345 full length units to Heathrow. Its likely they will run them on the Hayes service for a while off peak to ensure they work before they risk them on the Heathrow service.
 

rebmcr

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Heathrow trips require ETCS as the 345s don't have the GW-ATP. I think the current configuration of 7 car units don't have ETCS available. I saw a mention by Mark Wild that the transitions between ETCS and TPWS were working. I think there is a need to prove the latest software version before they run 345 full length units to Heathrow. Its likely they will run them on the Hayes service for a while off peak to ensure they work before they risk them on the Heathrow service.
It seems all of the other 'blockers' are slowly trickling away, leaving the features of that software release as the only major holdup.

I reckon we'll see a lot of progress all across the project once it's validated and deployed.
 

hwl

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It seems all of the other 'blockers' are slowly trickling away, leaving the features of that software release as the only major holdup.

I reckon we'll see a lot of progress all across the project once it's validated and deployed.
I suspect the software will get addressed in several phases, so several smaller big wins rather than single huge one.
 

rebmcr

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I suspect the software will get addressed in several phases, so several smaller big wins rather than single huge one.
That's plausible, but I think there's also merit in not having to re-validate the modules against each other when new pieces are added. The latter approach would of course probably require a greater number of bugfix releases after it goes live.
 

kevin_roche

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I suspect the software will get addressed in several phases, so several smaller big wins rather than single huge one.
There are at least two versions of the the software being worked on that I know about, PD+11 and PD+12, and there will be more if further faults are found while trial running. These appear to be the Configuration numbers and include software from Bombardier and Siemens. They are mentioned in the Jacobs reports for period 6 and 7 which you can find on the TfL website. The reports also mention what I think are Bombardier software versions, Y0.50 and Z1.00.

In the Period 6 Report: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/project-representative-periodic-reports-period-6-2019.pdf (see page 6 and 12)

The principal risk to Stage 2B Opening is now the production and compilation of safety authorisation evidence. The forecast date for the software that enables driver training to start has slipped by 2 weeks in the period1. The risk to the train’s software development programme has receded with the successful completion of the ‘39’ formal integration tests with the wayside ETCS.
and
The FLU fleet has been slowly increasing its services on the Hayes & Harlington service, but the MTIN remains poor, reaching 760 in Period 6. However, the passengers are generally not affected due to the relatively minor nature of many of the faults and the speed of manual intervention. There is unlikely to bea significant improvement in performance until the Z1.00 software configuration is installed on the trains, currently forecast for the end of November 2019
In the Period 7 Report: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/project-representative-periodic-report-period-7-2019.pdf (see page 9 and 10)

The date for approval of the software that enables driver training to start has been held since our Period 6 report. Assuming this situation continues, we could expect FLUs to be incrementally introduced into service, possibly from December 2019. However, the time required for driver training completion means that the earliest that full service is likely to be achieved is the end of March 2020, although this could be extended to May 2020
The MTIN for Period 7 was 427miles. As we stated in our last report, the figure is not expected to significantly improve until the Z0.100 software configuration is installed on the trains and approved for passenger service. The date for this has improved by circa one week since our Period 6 report.

Testing of this configuration is currently taking place at Melton. This will assist in providing evidence for the decision point of 15 November 2019 when MTR-C and RfL assess whether FLUs or RLUs should start the 5A service.
In Crossrail Limited's response to the Jacobs Report for period 7:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/project-representative-crossrail-response-to-sponsors-period-7-2019.pdf
on page 6 it says:
4.23. P_D11+ was focussed on delivering functionality to support Trial Running rather than reliability. The assessment of its potential reliability is based on a sample of Dynamic Testing that approximates to Service Operation and faults that are likely to impact service. The actual performance of P_D11+ will not be clear until it is delivered and tested in the New Year.

4.24. The scope of Y600 (including P-D12+) is being finalised and the Reliability Team is working with Plateau to determine what faults can be addressed within it. A number of faults that may provide improvement have been identified and are being analysed as part of this process. Reliability is now an increasing focus of Plateau and the composition of Y600 and beyond.
I hope that helps. I know this is old news now but if the project is going as was expected they should be about to install P_D11+ and P-D12+ will be under test at Melton soon.
 

hwl

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There are at least two I know about. PD+11 and PD+12 and there will be more if further faults are found while trial running. These appear to be the Configuration numbers and include software from Bombardier and Siemens. They are mentioned in the Jacobs reports for period 6 and 7 which you can find on the TfL website. The reports also mention Bombardier software versions, Y0.50 and Z1.00.
I was just referring to the train software. Plenty of issues that aren't related hence ideal to separate (providing for proper regression testing) especially given the bonus of 9car + Heathrow running in the short term that doesn't have a Siemens CBTC software link which will also help run more 345s in service, get the 9cars in service and gets more units accumulate mileage and resolve issues helping in the long term. It also means no more 360 running for TfLrail making things slightly more simple in the medium term.
 

kevin_roche

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I was just referring to the train software. Plenty of issues that aren't related hence ideal to separate (providing for proper regression testing) especially given the bonus of 9car + Heathrow running in the short term that doesn't have a Siemens CBTC software link which will also help run more 345s in service, get the 9cars in service and gets more units accumulate mileage and resolve issues helping in the long term. It also means no more 360 running for TfLrail making things slightly more simple in the medium term.
Unfortunately the train software and signalling software versions are not separated in the Jacobs reports. Originally in some of the earlier reports the various versions were, now its difficult to separate them out. I assume that these numbers are not referring to the trackside signalling software, but I'm not sure.

In a report from over a year ago I saw version numbers for the TCMS (Train Control and Management System) [7.2.2.6 and 7.3], the TPWS software [2.5.2], the ETCS software [PVI 6.2] and CBTC [A03-003] but now they refer to the whole lot together with numbers like PD+11 but they are not very consistent. I'm guessing that the CBTC software is there but inactive on a trip from Paddington High Level to Heathrow.
 

kevin_roche

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Some good news from the TfL board meeting today.

https://www.london.gov.uk/tfl-full-board-2020-01-22

At Approx 1:49:30 - Yesterday the version of software we call PD+11 was approved by our independant safety authority as good to go for safety testing.

At Approx 1:56:30 - We are in the final stages of getting safety certification of getting the train to run out to Heathrow with passengers.

At Approx 2:02:45 - Last week Bombardier submitted the software configuration for approval by ORR so that FLUs (full length units) can run to Reading and Heathrow. This typically takes 4 to 6 weeks.
 

pacenotes

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So having used the 345 for just over a month on the western side, They are bedding in ok. I think people have found when the trains are a bit quieter and got there favorite seats.

The only thing I have to say is how little bar holding space there is.

In front of the doors is a single pole. They could of put a 3 bar pole to alow more holding space like the new Merseyside rail



On that, once you get inside and down the carriage there is also nothing to hold on to except the top straps which if you are short is imposable. Even the forward-facing seats don't have a bar like the train above. Since they said most journeys are 10 mins or less and most will be standing its not a great train for standing in.
 

hwl

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Will that mean that we can reasonably expect to see full length 345s to Reading and Heathrow by spring?
The target in November was for April so it look like this is on target. Expect to see phasing with Hayes shuttles + Reading first to avoid teething troubles in the Heathrow tunnels section. Heathrow may even be in 2 phases with the 360 replacement first then Hayes extensions (the later to align with May TT change to make life simpler overall?)
 

kevin_roche

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Will that mean that we can reasonably expect to see full length 345s to Reading and Heathrow by spring?
There was a statement at the meeting that the constraint for Heathrow was driver training. They thought that would be complete by March. So April looks good.
 

kevin_roche

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PD+11 is the related to central tunnelled section CBTC signalling not the trains to Heathrow or 9 car...
That is not what they said at the TfL board meeting. They specifically said they would use PD+11 on the trains to Heathrow. Mark Wild made a point that they would be using the same version of software on all the 9 car trains. Unfortunately the stream won't play right now so I can't point you at the specific words.

I believe they are using the PD+11 version number for the integrated software which supports ETCS, CBTC and TPWS.
 
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class717

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Just saw an empty 345 going over the Heathrow flyover just outside Hayes and Harlington. Can't find on RTT but comes up at 516I on Open Train Times. Didn't know they did testing on weekends?
 

JonathanH

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Just saw an empty 345 going over the Heathrow flyover just outside Hayes and Harlington. Can't find on RTT but comes up at 516I on Open Train Times. Didn't know they did testing on weekends?
They were at Heathrow testing last weekend as well as I posted here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-345-progress.120221/page-104#post-4394385

The testing seems quite intensive today
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=ZZ

The unit in appears to have run under the XR code
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K00105/2020-01-25/detailed
 

Bigbru

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itfcfan

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Looking at Real Time Trains after the May timetable change and it appears 4tph Paddington to Heathrow (non-Heathrow Express) is planned to begin then (on Monday 18th May). Given there's not sufficient availability of class 360 trains to run 4tph to Heathrow, it seems likely that class 345 to Heathrow is planned for that date.

Monday 18th May 2020 - 4tph Heathrow Central -> Ealing Broadway (xx:11, xx:26, xx:41, xx:56)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Friday 15th May - 2tph Heathrow Central -> Ealing Broadway (xx:26, xx:56)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR
 

kevin_roche

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Looking at Real Time Trains after the May timetable change and it appears 4tph Paddington to Heathrow (non-Heathrow Express) is planned to begin then (on Monday 18th May). Given there's not sufficient availability of class 360 trains to run 4tph to Heathrow, it seems likely that class 345 to Heathrow is planned for that date.

Monday 18th May 2020 - 4tph Heathrow Central -> Ealing Broadway (xx:11, xx:26, xx:41, xx:56)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Friday 15th May - 2tph Heathrow Central -> Ealing Broadway (xx:26, xx:56)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR
Yes the plan is that the current trains which stop at Hayes and Harlington will continue to Heathrow.

You can see that by looking at the reverse direction:

Friday 15th May 2020 From Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...5/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Monday 18th May 2020 From Paddington
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...8/1000-1100?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR
 

kevin_roche

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The minutes from the November Crossrail board meeting are now on the TfL web site: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/crl-board-minutes-7-november-2019.pdf
One interesting point was the answer to my earlier question about the length of trial running:
Trial running and trial operations–the duration assumption for trial running was 4 months [Redacted]. The Board considered whether there was an opportunity to reduce the timing of trial running and increase that for dynamic testing, using RfL signallers and maintainers. The Board also considered that it would be useful to model backwards from Stage 4 to determine what needed to be achieved in terms of reliability as that would inform what was necessary for trial running and highlight opportunities for further mitigation;
Am I correct to assume that, given that Trial Running will start in the Autumn 2020, it will be followed by operational testing which is likely to take us through to the summer of 2021 (May?), a period of about 5 months?
 

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