Class 377 Anomalies

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RichardKing

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Recently, I've noticed a few 377 anomalies. They are as followed:

- 377 472 or 474 - I can't remember which one - has it's front-end identifying number (not the official name for it, I'm sure!) covered with yellow paint on the driver's side. You can only see '377' and part of the '4'.
- Some 377s have different shades of yellow painted on the front of the cabs (i.e. the driver's side has a light shade of yellow and the second-man's side has a darker shade of yellow). I believe this is the case with units numbered 377 101-139 only.
- There has been temporary software introduced on the PIS system informing passengers that no trains will be running into Victoria over Easter because of engineering work. When the message scrolls across the PIS screen, there are two alerting 'ding-dongs' but no audio message. Why, if no audio message is intended, do these 'ding-dongs' happen?

If anyone is aware of the reasoning behind the above points, I'd be very interested to know!

Thanks,
Richard
 
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What about the interiors?

There are at least four variations....

2 + 2 throughout
3+2 throughout except ends of each car

2 +2 in end cars 3 +2 in middle cars


Then first class...

Partition or no parition power points or none inward facing seats on some units... Glass Partition half way down in end cars on some units

Also difference in lighting grab handles and stanc
hions not to mention side panels and flooring around disabled toilets
 

tsr

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Oh yes, loads and loads of variations exist. Even individual units certainly have strange quirks of their own, and remembering which one's which when you work them is a challenge, to put it mildly, as there are so many.

There certainly are cosmetic differences - you've still got units going around with old orange cab door handles; there is IIRC a 377/3 with two First Class sections wandering around (usually only one section on those); there's the old moquette in some driving cabs on the panel by your knees under the power/brake controller. Then you have random differences in driving cab seats (some are the massive green seats which mean you can't get in a middle cab properly on the driver's side; others are the old black and grey variety which is much easier to deal with). A couple of units now have the heating working in the middle cabs again, but most still don't after a dodgy software upgrade a while ago. 377321 always has electronics problems of various descriptions, chiefly with the line interference monitor system, lighting and the toilet. Several 377/6 units have problems with the conductor panels not working. Need I go on? If I listed all the things I've spotted, I'd be here all day.

EDIT: Just a couple of explainers for what I know regarding the previous posts:
- Some visual information on PIS screens can be triggered at various locations, or remotely by service controllers, for information about engineering works and disruption. There was also a trial a year or so ago, which sadly appears to have been aborted, for live information about connecting Tube and NR services. On 377s, text-only information will usually be displayed in conjunction with a chime but no audio. This actually also includes the "Not in service" destination boards. The audio chime varies depending on the way the information has been loaded onto the train PIS system. There are a fixed number of auto-announcements and display board scrolling messages which can be triggered by the driver or a conductor, but the periodic information about specific engineering work can't be.
- Different shades of yellow on the cab exteriors are most likely due to different batches of parts, but yellow patches on one panel, including where it's noticeable over numbers, are usually due to paint damage going through to another layer.
- Glass partitions half-way down coaches are only found on 377/6, 377/7 and 387 units. The partitions closer to the end cabs are on 377/4 and 377/5 units.
 
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Class377/5

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- There has been temporary software introduced on the PIS system informing passengers that no trains will be running into Victoria over Easter because of engineering work. When the message scrolls across the PIS screen, there are two alerting 'ding-dongs' but no audio message. Why, if no audio message is intended, do these 'ding-dongs' happen?

If anyone is aware of the reasoning behind the above points, I'd be very interested to know!

Thanks,
Richard

Basically to record any announcement you have to do a sound recording then then get the database amended. Its very expensive and takes quite some time so its done with just a database change with silent scrolling messages.
 

tsr

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Basically to record any announcement you have to do a sound recording then then get the database amended. Its very expensive and takes quite some time so its done with just a database change with silent scrolling messages.

Even the silent scrolling messages can take a while - the alert about correctly using the level crossing at Warnham only features on about half the train PIS systems on the route!
 

RichardKing

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What about the interiors?

There are at least four variations....

2 + 2 throughout
3+2 throughout except ends of each car

2 +2 in end cars 3 +2 in middle cars

The 2+2 seating can be found in units numbered 377 101-119 & 377 301-328;
The 3+2 seating in the middle of each coach and 2+2 seating at the end of each coach can be found in units numbered to 377 120-139
The 2+2 seating in the end coaches and 3+2 seating in the middle coaches can be found in units 377 140-475 (excluding the 377/3s). This seating also applies to the 377/5s.
 

ComUtoR

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Basically to record any announcement you have to do a sound recording then then get the database amended.

Why isn't it done using a text to speech program ? They have come along way since the days of sounding like a robot with a speech impediment.

What about using a word database then assembling it ?
 

RichardKing

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Oh yes, loads and loads of variations exist. Even individual units certainly have strange quirks of their own, and remembering which one's which when you work them is a challenge, to put it mildly, as there are so many.

There certainly are cosmetic differences - you've still got units going around with old orange cab door handles; there is IIRC a 377/3 with two First Class sections wandering around (usually only one section on those); there's the old moquette in some driving cabs on the panel by your knees under the power/brake controller. Then you have random differences in driving cab seats (some are the massive green seats which mean you can't get in a middle cab properly on the driver's side; others are the old black and grey variety which is much easier to deal with). A couple of units now have the heating working in the middle cabs again, but most still don't after a dodgy software upgrade a while ago. 377321 always has electronics problems of various descriptions, chiefly with the line interference monitor system, lighting and the toilet. Several 377/6 units have problems with the conductor panels not working. Need I go on? If I listed all the things I've spotted, I'd be here all day.

EDIT: Just a couple of explainers for what I know regarding the previous posts:
- Some visual information on PIS screens can be triggered at various locations, or remotely by service controllers, for information about engineering works and disruption. There was also a trial a year or so ago, which sadly appears to have been aborted, for live information about connecting Tube and NR services. On 377s, text-only information will usually be displayed in conjunction with a chime but no audio. This actually also includes the "Not in service" destination boards. The audio chime varies depending on the way the information has been loaded onto the train PIS system. There are a fixed number of auto-announcements and display board scrolling messages which can be triggered by the driver or a conductor, but the periodic information about specific engineering work can't be.
- Different shades of yellow on the cab exteriors are most likely due to different batches of parts, but yellow patches on one panel, including where it's noticeable over numbers, are usually due to paint damage going through to another layer.
- Glass partitions half-way down coaches are only found on 377/6, 377/7 and 387 units. The partitions closer to the end cabs are on 377/4 and 377/5 units.

Wow, that is a hell of a lot to remember!
It seems like quite a while ago now when the 377/3s and original spec 377/1s had their initial interior style! I can't believe there are still reminders of those times going around. In all honesty, I quite miss the old interior in the above units.

You always give such helpful answers, Tsr! You have such an excellent knowledge of the railway, it's beyond me! As always, thank you so much for your reply!
 

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Also at least one 377 has the southern logo oddly positioned and not in the centre of the front and leading coach as is the norm

Then again the 377/6s and /7s have southern logos on each coach...

They also have green stanchions but all the refurbished 377s have yellow....


I wonder if 377/5s will get a great northern interior like 365s

Ironically southern installed carpets to the vestibules of their 377s on refurbishment (carpet throughout the train except the disabled toilet area) including the three 377/2s in fcc livery.... 377/5s are the only gtr 377s to have lino in the vestibules.... But 365s on refurbishment whilst having carpet in the vestibules are mostly now lino


Which 377s not including /6 and /7 have first class partitioning doors and inward facing seats by the cab ? 377/2 377/4 And 377/5 I am confident with but I was on a 377/1 in the higher series that had the standard southern seating configuration (2+2 only in leading and trailing coaches) yet had no first class partition or power points...
 
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causton

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Why isn't it done using a text to speech program ? They have come along way since the days of sounding like a robot with a speech impediment.

What about using a word database then assembling it ?

The best I have seen is at King's Cross St Pancras on the Underground, and even that is frankly terrible. No thank you.

I too never realised how many different variations there are, then again I normally only travel on 8 of them (the 377/7s)! ;)
 

FOH

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Some have glass overhead luggage racks while others are plastic with round holes

377/3s have different illuminated displays on the toilet wall.
 

47802

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Given the different batches were built over a period of more than 10 years its hardly surprising there are some differences particularly the substancially revised final batches, and Bombardier didn't even own Derby when the first 357 Electrostars were built.
 

tsr

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Wow, that is a hell of a lot to remember!
It seems like quite a while ago now when the 377/3s and original spec 377/1s had their initial interior style! I can't believe there are still reminders of those times going around. In all honesty, I quite miss the old interior in the above units.

You always give such helpful answers, Tsr! You have such an excellent knowledge of the railway, it's beyond me! As always, thank you so much for your reply!

My pleasure. I sign all the Bombardier stock Southern can use, which means my brain is full of this sort of stuff at work. If you ask any member of train crew, anyone at all from Fleet, etc., they'll all have different stories about different units which do odd things or have subtle differences. I've never been a traditional trainspotter so I'm not that good at remembering numbers, but that said, I do remember the really important differences if I can.

Also at least one 377 has the southern logo oddly positioned and not in the centre of the front and leading coach as is the norm

Some of the 377/3s, IIRC. I believe there's a couple with logos in odd places. I was on a 10-car train formed of 1x 377/1 and 2x 377/3 the other day, and both the 377/3 units were as you describe, I believe.

Then again the 377/6s and /7s have southern logos on each coach...

They also have green stanchions but all the refurbished 377s have yellow....


I wonder if 377/5s will get a great northern interior like 365s

I don't often say things like this, because it can lead to being stupidly nit-picky, but seeing as this is the thread for that, I do rather like the colour scheme of the refurbed GN 365s, so I wouldn't be against any cosmetic refreshes in that theme. I've only ever actually been on 365s in the old style, as I tend to go further East in East Anglia meaning I use AGA, so I can't comment as to current interior fitments and their quality.

Ironically southern installed carpets to the vestibules of their 377s on refurbishment (carpet throughout the train except the disabled toilet area) including the three 377/2s in fcc livery.... 377/5s are the only gtr 377s to have lino in the vestibules.... But 365s on refurbishment whilst having carpet in the vestibules are mostly now lino

I find the carpet is better for absorbing moisture (duh ;) ) and thus reducing slip hazards. However, of course, it can't be done everywhere. It would be stupid in the accessible toilet areas because of the fact that those toilets have a nasty habit of overflowing down the aisle outside when blocked, and therefore a hard shiny floor is much better to clean!

Which 377s not including /6 and /7 have first class partitioning doors and inward facing seats by the cab ? 377/2 377/4 And 377/5 I am confident with but I was on a 377/1 in the higher series that had the standard southern seating configuration (2+2 only in leading and trailing coaches) yet had no first class partition or power points...

377/4 and 377/5 have the facing seats and dividing doors for First Class. The others don't. 377/1 units are much like 377/3 ones in that they really don't have anything in the way of better facilities, except that the seats are marginally comfier in 377/1 First Class.

Some have glass overhead luggage racks while others are plastic with round holes

377/3s have different illuminated displays on the toilet wall.

Various different toilet modules exist. The ones on 377/3s are by far the most primitive from a point of view of door locking (for staff) and also the most in need of a refurb. Probably because there's only 1 per unit rather than 2, really.
 

Class377/5

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Why isn't it done using a text to speech program ? They have come along way since the days of sounding like a robot with a speech impediment.

What about using a word database then assembling it ?

I believe its a real person just like as is the case on the station (or atleast some of them).
 

greaterwest

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I believe its a real person just like as is the case on the station (or atleast some of them).

The 375, 377 and 387 (and for what it's worth, the 17x, 313, 442, 465 / 466) all use the voice of Julie Berry for the information system.
 

sarahj

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The old style seats which everyone loved. (on a ghost train to Newhaven Marine)
 

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RichardKing

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I still maintain the original Electrostar interior was the only good decision Connex ever made.

I completely agree!
Although the refurbished seating is still rather comfortable on the refurbished Connex units, getting rid of the original Electrostar interior was one of the worst decisions ever made.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
southern did a great job ruining them and giving them the astroturf sandpaper seat covers.

Some of those units do still have comfortable seating, but you will never beat the connex-style seating.
 

physics34

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I completely agree!
Although the refurbished seating is still rather comfortable on the refurbished Connex units, getting rid of the original Electrostar interior was one of the worst decisions ever made.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Some of those units do still have comfortable seating, but you will never beat the connex-style seating.

yeh they have a spring inside the seat frame unlike the later 377 2x2 seating(from 140 onwards???)
 

RichardKing

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yeh they have a spring inside the seat frame unlike the later 377 2x2 seating(from 140 onwards???)

I believe the seating layout in the 377s are as followed (someone correct me if I've got this wrong!):

377 101-119 and 377 301-328 has the comfortable, springy 2+2 seating throughout;
377 120-139 has the 3+2 ironing board type seating in the centre of each coach and the 2+2 comfortable and springy seating at either end of each coach;
377 140-475 (excluding the 377/3s) has the average type 2+2 seating in the leading/end coaches and the 3+2 ironing board type seating in the middle coaches. This is the same for the Thameslink 377/5s.

The 377/6s, 377/7s, 387/1s and 387/2s have the ironing board type seating throughout.
 
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swt_passenger

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What about using a word database then assembling it ?

Even that seems to be too difficult. SN were calling at Southampton Airport for about a year without it being part of the recording, even though it was on the displays.

Considering that's with Southampton Central and Gatwick Airport being there in the database to edit...
 

RichardKing

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My pleasure. I sign all the Bombardier stock Southern can use, which means my brain is full of this sort of stuff at work. If you ask any member of train crew, anyone at all from Fleet, etc., they'll all have different stories about different units which do odd things or have subtle differences. I've never been a traditional trainspotter so I'm not that good at remembering numbers, but that said, I do remember the really important differences if I can.

Excluding the fact that I am a commuter as opposed to a railway worker, the latter part of that message applies to me. I'm not a traditional/conventional trainspotter, but I notice the variations of different units (which is what this thread is based on!).

I immediately noticed, during the first week of my commuting, some units have comfortable seats and others don't. I then noticed that there are identifying numbers on the front/back of each train. 10 years on from that, I can tell you that when 377 101 pulls up with the small headlights, you are in for quite a comfortable ride (if the train isn't packed).

I have also noticed more subtle things during my many years of commuting. For instance, some guards give the '10-bell ring' when they are ready to close the doors, others just click the blue interlock button (I'm still not completely sure of the reason behind these variations.).

To be honest, I wouldn't sneeze at a career in the railway. There are various reasons for why I'm looking at a career change and the railway is quite high up on my list!
 
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sarahj

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Excluding the fact that I am a commuter as opposed to a railway worker, the latter part of that message applies to me. I'm not a traditional/conventional trainspotter, but I notice the variations of different units (which is what this thread is based on!).

I immediately noticed, during the first week of my commuting, some units have comfortable seats and others don't. I then noticed that there are identifying numbers on the front/back of each train. 10 years on from that, I can tell you that when 377 101 pulls up with the small headlights, you are in for quite a comfortable ride (if the train isn't packed).

I have also noticed more subtle things during my many years of commuting. For instance, some guards give the '10-bell ring' when they are ready to close the doors, others just click the blue interlock button (I'm still not completely sure of the reason behind these variations.).

To be honest, I wouldn't sneeze at a career in the railway. There are various reasons for why I'm looking at a career change and the railway is quite high up on my list!


10 bell if your dispatching from either the rear or an intermediate cab. (driver is closing the doors), other wise its from a panel. The more busy the train (or for other reasons), the more than usual you will be on 10 bell. There are door close buttons in the cab but these were disabled when the guards key was on. (you need the key on to ring the bell). They work on the 375's from SE (we borrowed some once) and the new 387's. 10 bells has it uses, but can be a pain. I've had a driver who tried to take power once when I gave them the 3 to close the doors. :oops: Train never moved, but it tried. Some drivers you get the bells back, some don't. It's also good practice to inform the driver you are doing 10 bells,(and when your stopping) but there are times I have been squeezed out of a train and had to move dispatch points.

On the early units the toilets are a pain, poor to use, hard to re-set, or even lock, and sometimes when doing do the door can crash shut. And how many times do you end up saying D for door, L for lock. Then you have the conductor panels, the dont open fully and sometimes take the odd punter out. You have to hold them almost shut, while folks are boarding.
But the most disheartening feeling is boarding a train you know you are going to working non stop for the next 5 hours or so, and finding it's all coaches HD seating, so you know for the that time your going to be squeezing through, miffing off the punters, when checking tickets, or just passing through.:(
 

sarahj

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southern did a great job ruining them and giving them the astroturf sandpaper seat covers.

The new covers are great for keeping dust. If your ever on a 313 esp, start flicking the edge of the seat base, the dust jumps up from it's hiding place. You may never want to sit down again.:-x
 

physics34

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The new covers are great for keeping dust. If your ever on a 313 esp, start flicking the edge of the seat base, the dust jumps up from it's hiding place. You may never want to sit down again.:-x

thye dont make sense. Other govia companies dont have those (except Gat Ex now with the 387/2s) neither does any other TOC in the country.

They are basically just unbrushed fabric. Strange, annoying and odd.
 
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