Class 387

[coxy]

1P94, 07:45 from Maidenhead to Paddington was formed of 387132+133.

Caught it from Taplow, front 4 coaches had plenty of space, but rear 4 were just about standing room only - presumably folks at Maidenhead didn't fancy walking to the front of the train

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm presuming (/hoping) there's some substation that hasn't been installed yet and that once that's put in this problem will go away.

Are they trying to power the whole of Stockley-Maidenhead from the Stockley end?

Yes the intended grid connections ARE only at the ends of the electrified route, Kensal Green and Didcot. This has been explained a few times previously, it's because it is an auto-transformer feeder system and grid connections can therefore be much further apart than conventional supply systems (roughly double the distance). Basically Maidenhead (just a bit west of the station) is the mid point of the overall Kensal Green to Didcot length.

There has been a massive physical expansion of capability with the Kensal Green installation, as can be seen from a passing train, but it is presumably just not ready in time.

 

[pacenotes]

Now that others have taken the cat out the bag I suppose I can confirm a little more....

At the request of Network Rail test runs were conducted on Wednesday last week to look at the resilience of the power supply when a "full" electric service was running. The data drawn from those tests have caused concern that the older power infrastructure the Stockley - Maidenhead section is presently piggy-backing on is not capable of supporting the timetabled service. Initial projections indicated power delivered from Hayes Feeder would be sufficient for the initial timetabled service; unfortunately in practice that hasn't been the case.

Apparently the difference between a 4 car and 8 car is negligible; and thus NR have placed the following restrictions on electric operation West of Stockley until further notice:

Only Class 387 traction to operate on AC power in the section between Stockley and Maidenhead.
Only 2 sets (of any length) to be in the section between Stockley and Maidenhead at any time.
Class 387 traction not to exceed power notch 3 while in the section between Stockley and Maidenhead.

(Unrelated to Power- Class 387 traction PROHIBITED from calling at Iver Platforms 1 or 2 except for emergency evacuation purposes.)

From tomorrow until the improved power supply is completed (estimated mid-June) - one of the three 8 car 387 circuits that operate west of Stockley will be formed of Turbo traction. Length will be whatever Reading TCD can spare up to a Maximum of 5 cars. The trains that will be Turbo traction are those identified up thread. The thunderbird 57 will be on hot standby to rescue unit(s) if there are power issues.

Data from full in-service running will be continually reviewed; and if there is a possibility of re-introducing the third circuit as electric traction then that opportunity will be taken. Don't expect it in the first few days though.

While waiting for my train this morning at West Drayton a 387 went past the other way very slowly. I'm guessing this was why.

Have they delayed the 387s until June then?

Also, Ive read the timetable and most trains are changing to electric. But is that true? At Maidenhead, if you are on a 387 do you have to get off and onto a turbo to get you to Reading?

 

[swt_passenger]

While waiting for my train this morning at West Drayton a 387 went past the other way very slowly. I'm guessing this was why.

Have they delayed the 387s until June then?

Also, Ive read the timetable and most trains are changing to electric. But is that true? At Maidenhead, if you are on a 387 do you have to get off and onto a turbo to get you to Reading?

They have delayed some peak 387 operations for the foreseeable future, but not all. The only EMUs to Maidenhead this week were either replacements for peak extra DMUs, or new services.

However the timetable explains that there was to be another change to introduce more EMUs (and in the off-peak) in the first week of July and at that stage some Paddington to Reading stoppers would have been split at Maidenhead, with a change required. I'd suggest having a more detailed read of the timetable, particularly the dated trains shown in green.

 

[superkev]

I'm beginning to wonder if Network rail electrification and its contractors can get anything right or finish anything on time.
K

 

[theageofthetra]

What should be operating in time for Henley Regatta week?

 

[jyte]

What should be operating in time for Henley Regatta week?

Wikipedia says Henley Regatta is first week of July, JN114 says the power supply will hopefully have been upgraded by mid June (so very tight). More EMU services are due in the first week of July (swt_passenger) but if the power supply is struggling, I doubt a reinforced EMU timetable will be introduced if the power supply upgrade is unfinished (which is tight for July as I said earlier).

So, possibly quite a few 387s.

Most likely only 387s replacing peak time extra turbo services in the morning and evening.

 

[D365]

I'm beginning to wonder if Network rail electrification and its contractors can get anything right or finish anything on time.

It's darn near impossible to do anything when all the line schematics were burnt during the transition to Railtrack and when the supply chain has to be built up from scratch.

 

[aleggatta]

I know you're tongue-in-cheek; but no. There'd be no power for on-train lighting; doors and so on. The 57 is capable of directly coupling to; and operating the brakes on the 387(s). Ot isn't really capable of manipulating anything else!

The funny thing is, according to this piece from Rail Engineer, you could probably run the 387 on AC connected to a 57, and the traction on the 387 wouldn't be used only the auxilaries.

Using various adapter cables, the Class 57/3 can now feed 110V power to the EMU and also control both brakes and door opening systems

Once connected, there are two possibilities. If the train is completely dead, it can be hauled out to a place of safety at low speed. However, if all systems are running and controlled from the 57/3, then the consist can operate at line speed. Although it will probably only run to the closest station, it is actually quite capable of operating the originally intended service.

To test this capability, a four-car Class 377 was hauled from London to Brighton and back last summer, at service speed, with no problems. It ran round at Brighton in 15 minutes, ready for the return leg, with a crew of four (Class 57 driver, Class 377 driver and two fitters).

 

[jyte]

The funny thing is, according to this piece from Rail Engineer, you could probably run the 387 on AC connected to a 57, and the traction on the 387 wouldn't be used only the auxilaries.

I wonder what 8 or 12 car performance would be like.

 

[leomartin125]

Wikipedia says Henley Regatta is first week of July, JN114 says the power supply will hopefully have been upgraded by mid June (so very tight). More EMU services are due in the first week of July (swt_passenger) but if the power supply is struggling, I doubt a reinforced EMU timetable will be introduced if the power supply upgrade is unfinished (which is tight for July as I said earlier).

So, possibly quite a few 387s.

Most likely only 387s replacing peak time extra turbo services in the morning and evening.

This maybe a question for the GWEP thread, but isn't there a Transformer Substation in Slough, near Dolphin Jct? Hasn't this been comissioned yet?

 

[spark001uk]

This maybe a question for the GWEP thread, but isn't there a Transformer Substation in Slough, near Dolphin Jct? Hasn't this been comissioned yet?

I thought the 4 new supplies were going to be at Kensal Green, Didcot, Melksham and Cardiff?

 

[Emblematic]

I thought the 4 new supplies were going to be at Kensal Green, Didcot, Melksham and Cardiff?

There are auto-transformers roughly every 10 Km, which couple the auxiliary feed cables to the catenary (I've hugely oversimplified.) It's this distribution system that allows the grid feeds to be so far apart. However the grid feeds ultimately provide all of the power, so if they are not yet connected or installation not completed, as the posts above indicate, there would be limits on power available.

I understand that an independent feed at Reading depot is under development, but will be several years before it could be completed. The purpose is to provide additional resilience, and also to allow the depot to continue to operate when the catenary on the main line is isolated.

 

[Siemens Staines]

The vice 387 diagram is only a three car turbo today, possibly because its two car partner is being used vice HST?

07:33 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 08:06
Facilities on the 07:33 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 08:06.
Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8.
This is due to damage to the overhead electric wires.
Last Updated:23/05/2017 06:20

08:42 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 09:22
Facilities on the 08:42 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 09:22.
Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8.
This is due to damage to the overhead electric wires.
Last Updated:23/05/2017 06:21

07:34 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington due 08:16
Facilities on the 07:34 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington due 08:16.
Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 8.
This is due to a broken down train earlier today.
Last Updated:23/05/2017 07:07

 

[spark001uk]

There are auto-transformers roughly every 10 Km, which couple the auxiliary feed cables to the catenary (I've hugely oversimplified.) It's this distribution system that allows the grid feeds to be so far apart. However the grid feeds ultimately provide all of the power, so if they are not yet connected or installation not completed, as the posts above indicate, there would be limits on power available.

I understand that an independent feed at Reading depot is under development, but will be several years before it could be completed. The purpose is to provide additional resilience, and also to allow the depot to continue to operate when the catenary on the main line is isolated.

Yes I know, that's why I said supplies, if I meant autotransformers I'd have said autotransformers. As I understand it there were initially 4 supplies planned, at the sites I mentioned above. Another at Reading would be helpful though, would certainly lighten the load.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes I know, that's why I said supplies, if I meant autotransformers I'd have said autotransformers. As I understand it there were initially 4 supplies planned, at the sites I mentioned above. Another at Reading would be helpful though, would certainly lighten the load.

The "Reading feeder" is planned to be at Bramley, feeding NR at Southcote Jn.
It's in the GWEP plans but don't know if it is being progressed.

 

[swt_passenger]

This maybe a question for the GWEP thread, but isn't there a Transformer Substation in Slough, near Dolphin Jct? Hasn't this been comissioned yet?

Autotransformer stations are fitted every so often along the track, but are not 'supplies' as such. They are a functional part of the way the OHLE is fed, but the input power coming from the grid only enters the OHLE system at the four places mentioned above, and in the case of the GWML so far these will be just Kensal Green and Didcot.

 

[jyte]

Question: How many 387s ran this morning? There was a fluff piece on the beeb yesterday that also included the attached image of a 387 sitting in what I'm 90% confident is the turnback siding built for Crossrail but the article made no issues about the 387s getting into service specifically (power issues), just issues with the GWEP in general such as cost overruns.

 

[pacenotes]

Any way to find out what trains are electric? I was thinking a website that tells me how many carriages a train has?

At West Drayton, they had it on the board.

'New Electric train with Air con and power sockets'

 

[Siemens Staines]

Any way to find out what trains are electric? I was thinking a website that tells me how many carriages a train has?

At West Drayton, they had it on the board.

'New Electric train with Air con and power sockets'

GWR pdf timetable identifies those trains that should be Electrostar
https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/train-times

Timetable E1

I believe the following are the trains that are now pairs of 387;
1P94 0742 Maidenhead - Paddington
2P32 0907 Maidenhead - Paddington
2P73 1818 Maidenhead - Paddington
2S80 0909 Paddington - Slough
1N40 1609 Paddington - Maidenhead
2D55 1714 Paddington - Maidenhead
1N44 1742 Paddington - Maidenhead
2D73 1912 Paddington - Maidenhead
1N62 1936 Paddington - Maidenhead
2P25 0829 Slough - Paddington
1P98 0943 Slough - Paddington

plus the aforementioned four that should be, but are turbo for the moment
1P93 0733 Maidenhead - Paddington
1P97 0842 Maidenhead - Paddington
1N42 1642 Paddington - Maidenhead
1N52 1842 Paddington - Maidenhead

 

[spark001uk]

What sort of speed can one expect from a 387 in notch 3 then? And is it affecting their Hayes to Maidenhead timings by a lot?

 

[D1009]

What sort of speed can one expect from a 387 in notch 3 then? And is it affecting their Hayes to Maidenhead timings by a lot?

The answer to your second question is no, you can check them on RTT.

 

[wls1]

They're still timed as turbos so even when their on notch 3, they can still make up time.

 

[leomartin125]

They're still timed as turbos so even when their on notch 3, they can still make up time.

My train departed Paddington 9L due to the driver being delayed as he was on a Turbo inbound (ironic), but by the time it was at Slough it was 1L and at Maidenhead it was on time, and that last leg it never exceeded notch 3. So they are speedy machines. Notch 4 is really only used during 110mph running.

 

[Fincra5]

What sort of speed can one expect from a 387 in notch 3 then? And is it affecting their Hayes to Maidenhead timings by a lot?

Electrostars are quite nippy under the wires. Even notch 3 on DC land will make up time compared to a Diesel.

 

[spark001uk]

Electrostars are quite nippy under the wires. Even notch 3 on DC land will make up time compared to a Diesel.

Ah right ok. You say 'even on dc land', does that mean in each notch there's generally less power available on third rail then, when compared with ac.? I didn't know that.

 

[hwl]

Ah right ok. You say 'even on dc land', does that mean in each notch there's generally less power available on third rail then, when compared with ac.? I didn't know that.

A lot less power is available from the 3rd rail as opposed to OHLE so power draw from 3rd rail has to be limited (even more so in poor supply areas and with 12 coach trains). The 2 main on train mechanism are:

a) The "DC link" voltage in the inverters is usually 900V (DC) when fed from OHLE but just a nominal 750V (DC) from the 3rd rail so a nominal 20% less volts but given the physics of the motors a greater than 20% reduction in power output at the shaft. (This effects all Notches and is really simple & effective). This also helps limit power draw within the permitted voltage range to being proportional to the 3rd rail voltage e.g where there are shared power supplies and lower 660V nominal voltage with LU (parts of the District and all of Waterloo and City are fed from NR Wessex supplies).

b) Software limiting the current draw at the inverters while on DC to circa 75% of the AC level (This effects higher Notches) e.g. limiting the current draw at the inverters on a 4car unit to 1200A total instead of 1600A total etc on a 377.

This typically results in less than 60% of the power at the motor shaft available on DC compared to AC.

Off train measures include banning or limiting the number of 12 car services on certain routes, careful timetabling or sometimes limiting the services to just 1 unit.

 

[physics34]

A lot less power is available from the 3rd rail as opposed to OHLE so power draw from 3rd rail has to be limited (even more so in poor supply areas and with 12 coach trains). The 2 main on train mechanism are:

a) The "DC link" voltage in the inverters is usually 900V (DC) when fed from OHLE but just a nominal 750V (DC) from the 3rd rail so 20% less volts but given the physics of the motors a greater than 20% reduction in power output at the shaft. (This effects all Notches and is really simple & effective)

b) Software limiting the current draw at the inverters while on DC to circa 75% of the AC level (This effects higher Notches) e.g. limiting the current draw at the inverters on a 4car unit to 1200A instead of 1600A etc on a 377.

This typically results in less than 60% of the power at the motor shaft available on DC compared to AC.

Off train measures include banning or limiting the number of 12 car services on certain routes, careful timetabling or sometimes limiting the services to just 1 unit.

12 cars on East Grinsteads are always slow

 

[Fincra5]

12 cars on East Grinsteads are always slow

You should try a 12 car between Lewes and Wivelsfield. Its the slowest acceleration known to man

 

[spark001uk]

This maybe a question for the GWEP thread, but isn't there a Transformer Substation in Slough, near Dolphin Jct? Hasn't this been comissioned yet?

You know what it's got me puzzled now I've been past, there's several masts with supply wires attached, just west of slough, and also some just east too, at dolphin. Can these two sites both be atf stations?