Class 387

[Fincra5]

That would mean more guards would have to be employed... I very much doubt that would happen.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Don't forget that many of the routes the 377/6s are meant for cannot take longer than 10-car trains. London metro route stations are being extended from 8-car platforms to 10-car platforms in many places. The use of 12-car trains is not possible. Wait another 20 years and perhaps some more platform lengthening will occur but it will be hard to squeeze longer platforms in places where a 25% increase has just been achieved.

 

[Class377/5]

Don't forget that many of the routes the 377/6s are meant for cannot take longer than 10-car trains. London metro route stations are being extended from 8-car platforms to 10-car platforms in many places. The use of 12-car trains is not possible. Wait another 20 years and perhaps some more platform lengthening will occur but it will be hard to squeeze longer platforms in places where a 25% increase has just been achieved.

The 10 car metro routes on the Sydenham Line was a cop out from 12 cars. The original idea was 10 cars introduced under Southern using 377's then upping to 12 car with Thameslink from 2018 with a Brent Cross to West Croydon service.

 

[samuelmorris]

Don't forget that many of the routes the 377/6s are meant for cannot take longer than 10-car trains. London metro route stations are being extended from 8-car platforms to 10-car platforms in many places. The use of 12-car trains is not possible. Wait another 20 years and perhaps some more platform lengthening will occur but it will be hard to squeeze longer platforms in places where a 25% increase has just been achieved.

That's well understood, metro routes are a given, but I'm simply saying using 10-cars where 12s would fit and make economical sense seems wasteful.

 

[Fincra5]

Correct but the company would rather run 10cars than employ more conductors for Southern services..

 

[samuelmorris]

Point taken. Is 10 cars the generally accepted limit for DOO without additional staff then?

 

[Bald Rick]

Point taken. Is 10 cars the generally accepted limit for DOO without additional staff then?

Nope. Plenty of 12 car DOO services running around.

 

[Class377/5]

Nope. Plenty of 12 car DOO services running around.

And in the TSGN ITT it states more 12 car DOO is coming to current Southern routes with Horsham and East Grinstead mentioned.

 

[TEW]

Southern aren't the only TOC with a 10-car limit on DOO though. C2C can only run DOO services up to 8-carriages, their 12-car trains in the peak run with guards.

 

[samuelmorris]

Southern aren't the only TOC with a 10-car limit on DOO though. C2C can only run DOO services up to 8-carriages, their 12-car trains in the peak run with guards.

This is what I was hinting at - are there TOCs out there that don't do this?

 

[Manchester77]

Think 12 car Thameslink trains (operated by FCC) are DOO

 

[jopsuk]

12 car services out of Cambridge (Both GA, with 379s, and FCC, with 365s) are, to the best of my knowledge, DOO, as are GA GEML 12-car 321s and 360s.

 

[Fincra5]

It all comes down to agreements with unions and drivers. Most coastway drivers hate DOO trains of any length. Those CCTV screens are awful.

 

[Class377/5]

Some news on the 387 fleet

There are 387101-378129

Carriage numbers are to be the first with six digits so 387101 is

• DMOS 424101
• PTOSLW 423101
• MOSL 422101
• DMOS 421101

First unit will arrive with Southern in May, complete testing in August with clearance for passenger service expected in September according to sources.

 

[SF-02]

12 car trains for southeastern metro will almost certainly be DOO when they begin which should have been last month.

It has constantly been put back. SE announced it starting in January but that has been and gone. Stations and power upgrades are done from what I've heard. Maybe it's lack of stock - they don't have enough for 6-10 car running on most routes.

 

[Class377/5]

First details on the 387/1 fleet

http://sparkyscrum.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/class-3871-for-techincal-details/

Includes some drawing of the fleet including internal layout


3781xx DMOS A by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

 

[southern442]

12 car trains for southeastern metro will almost certainly be DOO when they begin which should have been last month.

It has constantly been put back. SE announced it starting in January but that has been and gone. Stations and power upgrades are done from what I've heard. Maybe it's lack of stock - they don't have enough for 6-10 car running on most routes.

Well they will be getting the 377/1's so that will probably free up any 465/9's so that they can run the 12-car services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well they will be getting the 377/1's so that will probably free up any 465/9's so that they can run the 12-car services.

The 377 transfer to SE has never fitted with the dates announced for their 12 car services, surely? Yes it may solve the problem in the long run, but I don't think it can have been the original intention.

 

[Bayum]

When will they start to test the units/get them out and about?

I noted a post on a site suggesting acceptance to at least begin later on this year. Surely they should be testing soonish?

 

[SF-02]

The 377 transfer to SE has never fitted with the dates announced for their 12 car services, surely? Yes it may solve the problem in the long run, but I don't think it can have been the original intention.

Yeah true. 12 car is needed for the London Bridge rebuild as less trains can run with platform closures. That's Jan 2015 though the intention has been to run them before but deadlines have been and gone.

The 377/1's won't be free for a good couple of years.

 

[Mintona]

12 car trains for southeastern metro will almost certainly be DOO when they begin which should have been last month.

It has constantly been put back. SE announced it starting in January but that has been and gone. Stations and power upgrades are done from what I've heard. Maybe it's lack of stock - they don't have enough for 6-10 car running on most routes.

No agreement with aslef for the running of 12 car metro services - I think that is the reason for the delay.

 

[nomis1066]

Whatever - look at it how you like - 4 cars are becoming more and more inadequate on the longer distance Southern services - I see this all the time. 6 cars with layouts similar to the old slam door would be ideal.

Take the best features of what you have and combine it with new gear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not informed speculation now as FGW have publicly stated they want the units and are in talks with the DfT over getting them. No-one else has said they want the units publicly.

Of course the units are to replace four car units makes it sensible to do that with four cars especially when you plan to cascade them else where in the future.



Don't confuse onboard staff as having to be guards only. Passengers would be fine with someone, but it doesn't have to be a guard. In fact if you asked do you want someone that does purely customer services action or a guard they'd say the former.

Although this is off the point of the thread.

Does it really matter whether it's a guard, a conductor, revenue protection, a BT Police officer? My point is that passengers will prefer staffed trains and I cannot understand why they shouldn't have a small office where they can securely keep their gear and take a seat at quiet times. The days of a guard with feet up and reading the paper are long gone - and give BR credit - that had been largely knocked on the head in the years leading up to privatisation.

4 cars for longer Southern services are more and more inadequate - I travel off peak for my shifts and they frequently have to cram them in. 6 cars would be better with a layout similar to the slam doors which had plenty of room for bikes and a small office for on train staff.

They should have taken the best features of the slam doors and combined that with the new stock.

 

[southern442]

Whatever - look at it how you like - 4 cars are becoming more and more inadequate on the longer distance Southern services - I see this all the time. 6 cars with layouts similar to the old slam door would be ideal.

Take the best features of what you have and combine it with new gear.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Does it really matter whether it's a guard, a conductor, revenue protection, a BT Police officer? My point is that passengers will prefer staffed trains and I cannot understand why they shouldn't have a small office where they can securely keep their gear and take a seat at quiet times. The days of a guard with feet up and reading the paper are long gone - and give BR credit - that had been largely knocked on the head in the years leading up to privatisation.

4 cars for longer Southern services are more and more inadequate - I travel off peak for my shifts and they frequently have to cram them in. 6 cars would be better with a layout similar to the slam doors which had plenty of room for bikes and a small office for on train staff.

They should have taken the best features of the slam doors and combined that with the new stock.

In fact the best option for slam door replacement would've been a revised version of the slam door that contained all it's best bits whilst keeping up-to-date with the modern requirements of the railway.

 

[LoverOfTrains]

Hi guys! Quick Question. When Bombardier built Class 387s get cascaded from the Thameslink Route by the Class 700s which TOC / route will they be cascaded to?

I understand that the 387s won't be on the Thameslink Route for that long so I'm interested to know where they will go.

Also, will these new 387s be of the 379, 377/6, 377/7 Electrostar design or the traditional 375 / 377 design?

Thank you guys!

 

[swt_passenger]

Quick answer - it hasn't been decided yet. It has been debated in a number of previous threads about 387s in this sub-forum, GWML and MML seem to be the most widely suggested.

The 387s will be four car dual voltage, but 110 mph, so the nearest and most recent similar variant would possibly be the 377/5.

Here's a recently updated thread, there are quite a few of them: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92831

Page 4 of that thread included interior layout details...

 

[yorkie]

Quick Question. ....

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim their question is a "quick question" and the answer turn out to be quick..

...Here's a recently updated thread..

I will now merge the threads, as that would seem to make sense...

 

[LoverOfTrains]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim their question is a "quick question" and the answer turn out to be quick..


I will now merge the threads, as that would seem to make sense...

Ok. I claim quick questions, but they are never quick


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quick answer - it hasn't been decided yet. It has been debated in a number of previous threads about 387s in this sub-forum, GWML and MML seem to be the most widely suggested.

The 387s will be four car dual voltage, but 110 mph, so the nearest and most recent similar variant would possibly be the 377/5.

Here's a recently updated thread, there are quite a few of them: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92831

Page 4 of that thread included interior layout details...

Thank you for your help Much appreciated

 

[TEW]

The 387s will be four car dual voltage, but 110 mph, so the nearest and most recent similar variant would possibly be the 377/5.

I would think it's almost certain they will look like the 377/6s and /7s and the 379s though, and not like the 377/5s.

 

[LoverOfTrains]

The 5 car trains are designed for the inner suburban routes that are currently still being lengthened to 10 car - as mentioned in the above post. (This possibly accounts for them being 'run-in' in areas where they are not expected to work in the medium term.) AFAICS the number of 5 car units and thus 10 car sets, seems just about right for the relevant inner suburban routes, allowing for the fact that the 456s are notionally being replaced by some of the 377/6 extra capacity.

The 12 car services are mostly longer distance services, and they can initially be augmented from 8 to 12 using displaced 4 car units. But they obviously see a future surplus of 4 car units, as they are intending to transfer a load out of the franchise later, e.g. to Southeastern in 2017...

They would get transferred to Southeastern?

 

[Manchester77]

They would get transferred to Southeastern?

Yes in the TSGN ITT it stated that a number of carriages are to transfer to Southeastern to relief overcrowding.