Class 387

[Emblematic]

I think it's a given that the new Gatwick Express trains will have interiors suitable for airport use given the current criticism of the 442s for their unsuitable interiors.

The main issue I see with either train's interior is that it will already be full of BML commuters by the time it gets to Gatwick. What air passengers want is a relaxed, hassle-free ground transfer at each end of the flight, not to be rushed onto a passing commuter train. Gatwick had a dedicated rail service to London for twenty five years, that's what is needed rather than yet another change in rolling stock.

 

[Yabbadabba]

The main issue I see with either train's interior is that it will already be full of BML commuters by the time it gets to Gatwick. What air passengers want is a relaxed, hassle-free ground transfer at each end of the flight, not to be rushed onto a passing commuter train. Gatwick had a dedicated rail service to London for twenty five years, that's what is needed rather than yet another change in rolling stock.

Not unless they bring in portion working as we do already in the peak hour with some Brighton line trains attaching to mid Sussex trains at Three Bridges. They could send 8 car 387s up from Brighton to Attach to 4 car 387s waiting at Gatwick for them. The new signalling at Gatwick platforms 5 & 6 allows for this.

 

[physics34]

The main issue I see with either train's interior is that it will already be full of BML commuters by the time it gets to Gatwick. What air passengers want is a relaxed, hassle-free ground transfer at each end of the flight, not to be rushed onto a passing commuter train. Gatwick had a dedicated rail service to London for twenty five years, that's what is needed rather than yet another change in rolling stock.

But during the peak, they are virtually half empty and take up 4 useful pathways an hour, so i can see the positives of them running as a commuter train.

 

[starrymarkb]

What air passengers want is a relaxed, hassle-free ground transfer at each end of the flight, not to be rushed onto a passing commuter train.

Isn't that what happens at Schiphol? Berlin's Airport Express is similar - a standard regional route that calls at the airport with airport and commuter pax mixing - mind you it only costs €3 to the city with the Airport premium (The airport station was been moved into zone C while the surroundings are B)

Is there a need for a premium Gat-Ex service? Gatwick is mostly low cost or holiday flights (even BA and Virgin operate different Aircraft configs with less premium seating then Heathrow based aircraft). I'm sure this sort of passenger would have no qualms about getting a normal train at normal prices (ie no Airport Premium) its not like Heathrow where there is masses of premium traffic.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Here's a novel idea. Perhaps the GoVia press release is correct, i.e. when they say they are new trains designed for airline travellers they really will be?

In hindsight I think maybe a big assumption is being made in the forum generally, that the potential follow on order for additional units has to definitely be more 387s set to run at 110 mph. Perhaps they'll just turn out to be 100 mph 377/8s or something - I don't think the details have been ever been published at all, so has it ever been correct to assume they'll definitely be more of the same?

Here's an even more novel idea, why not have a dedicated fleet of airport expresses for GatEx and not a fleet of express commuter units. A 4 car 387 may be an improvement on a 5 car 442 but it will not be as good as an 8 car 460 with a luggage van.

387's are best for express commuter routes on Intercity main lines like GW, ECML and MML not on airport duties on the BML where the express speed is wasted.

 

[TEW]

I don't know how you can claim the new trains won't be suitable before any details have even been announced, let alone any trains built.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

I don't know how you can claim the new trains won't be suitable before any details have even been announced, let alone any trains built.

I am not saying that 387's with airport interiors won't be suitable, but their capabilities would be better used elsewhere on the network.

 

[TEW]

We don't even know about their technical capabilities yet. There are literally no details on them. Remember that the follow on order for the 377/6s, the 377/7s had dual-voltage capability added. The follow on order for the 387s could well be for DC Only and 100mph stock.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

We don't even know about their technical capabilities yet. There are literally no details on them.

If it is a follow on order for 387's (as suggested earlier in the thread) then they should be 4 car 110mph EMU's which IMO are best suited to outer commuter services like the Thames Valley and Cambridge Cruisers where they can work in up to 12 car formations and use their 110mph capabilities to be better pathed in amongst 125mph express services. Using such trains on GatEx airport services on the BML where the top speed is less than 100mph would IMO be a waste of their abilities.

 

[Emblematic]

Not unless they bring in portion working as we do already in the peak hour with some Brighton line trains attaching to mid Sussex trains at Three Bridges. They could send 8 car 387s up from Brighton to Attach to 4 car 387s waiting at Gatwick for them. The new signalling at Gatwick platforms 5 & 6 allows for this.

That's an intriguing idea - and might just work, if the incoming services are reliable enough.

But during the peak, they are virtually half empty and take up 4 useful pathways an hour, so i can see the positives of them running as a commuter train.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not oblivious to the capacity issues and constraints, but very few places in the world would consider giving up a dedicated airport link to alleviate a local commuter bottleneck. Given that demand for both air travel and commuting is on the rise, it needs some serious investment to fix - luggage racks on the trains is just not going to make much difference, really.

Isn't that what happens at Schiphol? Berlin's Airport Express is similar - a standard regional route that calls at the airport with airport and commuter pax mixing - mind you it only costs €3 to the city with the Airport premium (The airport station was been moved into zone C while the surroundings are B)

Is there a need for a premium Gat-Ex service? Gatwick is mostly low cost or holiday flights (even BA and Virgin operate different Aircraft configs with less premium seating then Heathrow based aircraft). I'm sure this sort of passenger would have no qualms about getting a normal train at normal prices (ie no Airport Premium) its not like Heathrow where there is masses of premium traffic.

Schiphol - horrendous airport, only been there once in the rush hour, just awful. Fortunately near enough to the city that taxi is affordable.
Berlin - gets a brand new airport next year, complete with new railway station that will be a major rail hub. So whatever they've got now, they plan on getting something a whole lot better.

1/3 of Gatwick's travel is full-service (Wikipedia so must be right.) The cost-sensitive part of the market can get the bus to London for £2, however road travel to London is painfully slow in the day, hence rail will remain a popular option for any category of passenger. If any airport expansion goes ahead, the second runway at Gatwick is likely to be high on the list, and importantly could be built quickly (by 2025) leaving the ground links bursting at the seams.

 

[ModernRailways]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not oblivious to the capacity issues and constraints, but very few places in the world would consider giving up a dedicated airport link to alleviate a local commuter bottleneck. Given that demand for both air travel and commuting is on the rise, it needs some serious investment to fix - luggage racks on the trains is just not going to make much difference, really.

Maybe what needs to happen is for the Gatwick Express (non-stop, air pax only) to be every 30 minutes, with commuter trains to the Airport every 30 minutes (or more) thus keeping the every 15 minutes Airport service, but also keeping a non-stop, quieter service for those who want to pay a bit more.

Schiphol - horrendous airport, only been there once in the rush hour, just awful. Fortunately near enough to the city that taxi is affordable.
Berlin - gets a brand new airport next year, complete with new railway station that will be a major rail hub. So whatever they've got now, they plan on getting something a whole lot better.

1/3 of Gatwick's travel is full-service (Wikipedia so must be right.) The cost-sensitive part of the market can get the bus to London for £2, however road travel to London is painfully slow in the day, hence rail will remain a popular option for any category of passenger. If any airport expansion goes ahead, the second runway at Gatwick is likely to be high on the list, and importantly could be built quickly (by 2025) leaving the ground links bursting at the seams.

Is that Brandenburg? Hasn't it now been pushed back further to 2016 because of the amount of problems? Germans are truly efficient Tegel is really well linked though, and the bus is really quite quick in my experience!

My suggestion above, having Gat Ex every 30 minutes with a commuter service in between thus providing the 15 minutes interval, would likely be the competitor to the bus. Those who don't want to spend a fortune and don't mind a train being busy (possibly no seats) would pay less and get the normal train. Those who want a bit more comfort, a more first class experience would pay more and get the quieter non-stop Gat Ex.

 

[Emblematic]

If it is a follow on order for 387's (as suggested earlier in the thread) then they should be 4 car 110mph EMU's which IMO are best suited to outer commuter services like the Thames Valley and Cambridge Cruisers where they can work in up to 12 car formations and use their 110mph capabilities to be better pathed in amongst 125mph express services. Using such trains on GatEx airport services on the BML where the top speed is less than 100mph would IMO be a waste of their abilities.

Rather like your near-namesake Midland mainline getting IC125 units in 1982, only some 30 years or so before getting the line upgrades to match?
(See this thread)
Surely though, maximum speed is just a matter of gearing. Were not the class 460s actually geared for 125 MPH? (I forget the reason, clearly no intention to run them at that speed.) Their new life sees them re-geared to 75, apparently to improve motor ventilation now they will be on stopping services. Electrostars already come in 75 and 100MPH versions, doubtless the units for GatEx will be set up to suit their intended use.

 

[Class377/5]

We don't even know about their technical capabilities yet. There are literally no details on them. Remember that the follow on order for the 377/6s, the 377/7s had dual-voltage capability added. The follow on order for the 387s could well be for DC Only and 100mph stock.

The 377/7 were originally on the order as 377627-634.

Here's a novel idea. Perhaps the GoVia press release is correct, i.e. when they say they are new trains designed for airline travellers they really will be?

In hindsight I think maybe a big assumption is being made in the forum generally, that the potential follow on order for additional units has to definitely be more 387s set to run at 110 mph. Perhaps they'll just turn out to be 100 mph 377/8s or something - I don't think the details have been ever been published at all, so has it ever been correct to assume they'll definitely be more of the same?

Spot on here. The units are part of the 387/1 order but doesn't mean thy can't be renumbered and have completely separate interiors.

All that has been announced is these units will be inter working Brighton services along with Gatwicks.

 

[Emblematic]

Is that Brandenburg? Hasn't it now been pushed back further to 2016 because of the amount of problems? Germans are truly efficient Tegel is really well linked though, and the bus is really quite quick in my experience!

Yes, Brandenburg is late - five years late now. However, as we've been prevaricating about a new airport in London for over forty years, far longer than Berlin has been reunified as a city, I don't feel we can gloat that much. Crossrail is a forty-year saga too. Thameslink 2000. Need I go on?

My suggestion above, having Gat Ex every 30 minutes with a commuter service in between thus providing the 15 minutes interval, would likely be the competitor to the bus. Those who don't want to spend a fortune and don't mind a train being busy (possibly no seats) would pay less and get the normal train. Those who want a bit more comfort, a more first class experience would pay more and get the quieter non-stop Gat Ex.

Well that does have the merit of at least having a genuine airport express service - although the possible thirty minute wait for a thirty minute journey isn't ideal. Probably something along these lines is all we can expect, until overcrowding (with or without airport expansion) forces some action again.

 

[Fincra5]

The idea of attaching a 4 car 387 to another already at GTW isn't a bad shout actually.

Even with the Gatwick Express a lot of people just get on the 1st train that says "Victoria" ....

 

[b0b]

The idea of attaching a 4 car 387 to another already at GTW isn't a bad shout actually.

Even with the Gatwick Express a lot of people just get on the 1st train that says "Victoria" ....

Or they could run as 8 car, but lock one of the trains out of use until Gatwick

 

[jon0844]

Yes, Brandenburg is late - five years late now. However, as we've been prevaricating about a new airport in London for over forty years, far longer than Berlin has been reunified as a city, I don't feel we can gloat that much. Crossrail is a forty-year saga too. Thameslink 2000. Need I go on?

You forgot HS1 - after the tunnel had opened in 1994!

 

[button_boxer]

Or they could run as 8 car, but lock one of the trains out of use until Gatwick

With an airport express service you really want a train waiting in the platform so people can board and stow luggage gradually over the 15 minute window whenever they happen to get to the platform, with the next incoming service arriving as this one goes out. Your suggestion would ensure there's space on the train but would still require passengers to wait on the platform and then board in one lump during the couple of minutes dwell time.

 

[Emblematic]

You forgot HS1 - after the tunnel had opened in 1994!

At least that got built at the first attempt, unlike the tunnel itself!

 

[Fincra5]

With an airport express service you really want a train waiting in the platform so people can board and stow luggage gradually over the 15 minute window whenever they happen to get to the platform, with the next incoming service arriving as this one goes out. Your suggestion would ensure there's space on the train but would still require passengers to wait on the platform and then board in one lump during the couple of minutes dwell time.

Exactly.. could even be an 8 car that attaches to a 4 at GTW, or Vice Versa. Seems like a good idea... so it will never happen haha.

 

[Minstral25]

They have ordered 27 4-car units for the Gatwick Express trains and Brighton Extensions. Can anyone work out if these will run as 4, 8 or 12 car trains?

 

[physics34]

They have ordered 27 4-car units for the Gatwick Express trains and Brighton Extensions. Can anyone work out if these will run as 4, 8 or 12 car trains?

They've said they will run as 12s in the peak

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Perhaps 12 car for all Gatwick Express services and 12 car on the peek services to Brighton, with maybe 8 car on Brighton runs at all other times? (That is if they'll have the units to do so)

 

[Minstral25]

Perhaps 12 car for all Gatwick Express services and 12 car on the peek services to Brighton, with maybe 8 car on Brighton runs at all other times? (That is if they'll have the units to do so)

In my view the other way round - 12 cars to Brighton (as they can be very full even off peak) and 4 to Gatwick only (as generally they are less than 20% full on 5 coach 442's off peak)

Reason for my question was to find out how long the trains they have put in could be for the stock they have bought - presumably off-peak they may wander to other services anyway

 

[Class377/5]

In my view the other way round - 12 cars to Brighton (as they can be very full even off peak) and 4 to Gatwick only (as generally they are less than 20% full on 5 coach 442's off peak)

Reason for my question was to find out how long the trains they have put in could be for the stock they have bought - presumably off-peak they may wander to other services anyway

Should be 8 cars off peak as from next December you get an extra train each hour to/from Brighton.

 

[Minstral25]

Should be 8 cars off peak as from next December you get an extra train each hour to/from Brighton.

Cheers
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When does the first 387 arrive in London - all the 377/7's are hear now so presumably soon?

 

[Class377/5]

Cheers
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When does the first 387 arrive in London - all the 377/7's are hear now so presumably soon?

October was the date for testing what I've heard (and not just from Modern Railways). Commissioning should follow the 377/7 paths.

 

[physics34]

October was the date for testing what I've heard (and not just from Modern Railways). Commissioning should follow the 377/7 paths.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/12924463945/in/set-72157641848570973

 

[swt_passenger]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/12924463945/in/set-72157641848570973

I'm 99% sure you're linking Class377/5 to his own flickr site, he probably knows about that...

 

[Mikey C]

Not everyone wants to go to Victoria anyway, An awful lot of tourists will be taking the Thameslink line into London, especially once it's upgraded, with it's frequency and easy connections to the likes of Crossrail, and nobody has suggested separate airport trains for this route?