Class 397 125mph?

[dave59]

Do these units ever achieve 125mph in service?

 

[HSP 2]

Three stretches of track that they may Wigan - Preston, Preston - Lancaster and Lancaster - Carnforth. Not sure about north of Carlisle.

 

[matt]

Three stretches of track that they may Wigan - Preston, Preston - Lancaster and Lancaster - Carnforth. Not sure about north of Carlisle.

Do any of those sections have a speed limit of 125 for non-tilting trains?

 

[The Planner]

Do any of those sections have a speed limit of 125 for non-tilting trains?

May have been rhetorical, but no they don't.

 

[HSP 2]

So the only units that can run on the W.C.M.L. at 125 mph are Pendos?

 

[djpontrack]

I thought the 397’s were restricted to 110mph.

 

[driver9000]

No they don't. 110mph is the current maximum speed on their routes. They have been tested to 125mph on the WCML but work to raise speeds seems to have gone quiet.

 

[Huntergreed]

No they don't. 110mph is the current maximum speed on their routes. They have been tested to 125mph on the WCML but work to raise speeds seems to have gone quiet.

Probably might wait until HS2 is closer to completion (as the stock is non-tilt, and there's certainly some opportunity to get in some 125mph running without tilt from Crewe - Glasgow)

 

[43096]

So the only units that can run on the W.C.M.L. at 125 mph are Pendos?

And Avanti’s Class 221s.

 

[HSP 2]

And Avanti’s Class 221s.

I was forgetting that it was only the xc 221s that had the tilt disabled.

 

[dave59]

No they don't. 110mph is the current maximum speed on their routes. They have been tested to 125mph on the WCML but work to raise speeds seems to have gone quiet.

Thought so. The Railcam camera at Thankerton (which is a 125mph stretch) shows the 397's going at a very leisurely pace compared to the 390's.

 

[edwin_m]

Thought so. The Railcam camera at Thankerton (which is a 125mph stretch) shows the 397's going at a very leisurely pace compared to the 390's.

It's a 125mph stretch for tilting trains (known as the Enhanced Permissible Speed). As mentioned the general maximum on the WCML for other trains is 110. I think there used to be a short section of 125 in the Motherwell area, used by the ECML trains via Carstairs, but not really long enough to make much difference to journey times.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I think there used to be a short section of 125 in the Motherwell area, used by the ECML trains via Carstairs, but not really long enough to make much difference to journey times.

Was that an HST differential rather than a general line speed? If it had been still in place 397 could have used it albeit as you say without much difference to journey times.

 

[Ianno87]

It's a 125mph stretch for tilting trains (known as the Enhanced Permissible Speed). As mentioned the general maximum on the WCML for other trains is 110. I think there used to be a short section of 125 in the Motherwell area, used by the ECML trains via Carstairs, but not really long enough to make much difference to journey times.

Was that an HST differential rather than a general line speed? If it had been still in place 397 could have used it albeit as you say without much difference to journey times.

Yes, there's a short burst of HST differential on the down between Shieldmuir and Motherwell.

 

[hexagon789]

I think there used to be a short section of 125 in the Motherwell area, used by the ECML trains via Carstairs, but not really long enough to make much difference to journey times.

Still there but 105 not 125, limit is 90 otherwise

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's a 125mph stretch for tilting trains (known as the Enhanced Permissible Speed). As mentioned the general maximum on the WCML for other trains is 110. I think there used to be a short section of 125 in the Motherwell area, used by the ECML trains via Carstairs, but not really long enough to make much difference to journey times.

There's nothing faster than 95mph on the Edinburgh-Carstairs line (and no EPS/TASS tilt equipment).
Carstairs-Glasgow is TASS-equipped for about 2 miles on the Down through Shieldmuir, offering EPS/tilt at 105mph, but otherwise slower and no tilt.
Effectively, WCML tilt ends at Carstairs South Jn from the south.
Things might possibly change when the promised Carstairs remodelling/upgrade is done.

 

[hexagon789]

There's nothing faster than 95mph on the Edinburgh-Carstairs line (and no EPS/TASS tilt equipment).
Carstairs-Glasgow is TASS-equipped for about 2 miles on the Down through Shieldmuir, offering EPS/tilt at 105mph, but otherwise slower and no tilt.
Effectively, WCML tilt ends at Carstairs South Jn from the south.
Things might possibly change when the promised Carstairs remodelling/upgrade is done.

This is the section I was thinking of both EPS and HST 105:

 

[driver9000]

Thought so. The Railcam camera at Thankerton (which is a 125mph stretch) shows the 397's going at a very leisurely pace compared to the 390's.

100mph for non tilting trains passing the camera.

 

[AGH]

I don't think the top speed of these is that important. Their acceleration is excellent so suspect that they get to and stay at maximum speed quicker and the additional blast of extra 15mph won't have much effect on overall times

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is the section I was thinking of both EPS and HST 105:

View attachment 93152

Yes, that's one of the odd sections of the WCML (the others are on the Birmingham loop) which allow common HST/EPS speeds.
On that route, presumably that just applies to Azuma/IC225 sets and 397?
It's downhill anyway, and 2 miles is not going to make any difference at all to journey times (before the signal check at Motherwell!).

 

[driver9000]

Yes, that's one of the odd sections of the WCML (the others are on the Birmingham loop) which allow common HST/EPS speeds.
On that route, presumably that just applies to Azuma/IC225 sets and 397?
It's downhill anyway, and 2 miles is not going to make any difference at all to journey times (before the signal check at Motherwell!).

397s aren't permitted to run at HST speeds but they can run at MU speeds.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

397s aren't permitted to run at HST speeds but they can run at MU speeds.

HST speeds apply to trains permitted to use MU or SP differentials.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, that's one of the odd sections of the WCML (the others are on the Birmingham loop) which allow common HST/EPS speeds.
On that route, presumably that just applies to Azuma/IC225 sets and 397?
It's downhill anyway, and 2 miles is not going to make any difference at all to journey times (before the signal check at Motherwell!).

It means two extra miles of 105 for EPS/HST trains, the limit immediately before is a pure 105, so it means the reduction to 90 can happen later.

HST speeds apply to trains permitted to use MU or SP differentials.

No mention of 397s or HST speeds applying to MU or SP differentials.

The only note is that - "ScotRail HSTs may run at HST differentials, note 2.2 does not apply".

 

[Cheshire Scot]

No mention of 397s or HST speeds applying to MU or SP differentials.

The only note is that - "ScotRail HSTs may run at HST differentials, note 2.2 does not apply".

I did wonder if that table had not been updated to include 397 but then I noticed 350 are not listed either.

I had understood it was a general principle that units cleared for the 'lighter weight' differentials such as MU or SP also take the 'heavier' differentials which apply to HST.

Class 80x are also not included but I would have expected them to be able to run at HST speeds on the former LNER HST routes such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but clearly not.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 80x are also not included but I would have expected them to be able to run at HST speeds on the former LNER HST routes such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but clearly not.

I hadn't noticed that omission, seems strange as they can use HST speeds on the Western area.

I would suggest the data hasn't been updated to reflect it but there is a note for the shortened ScotRail HSTs.

Does seem peculiar but I'm almost certain they are allowed to use HST differentials otherwise they'd be even less able to keep timings north of Edinburgh.

 

[driver9000]

HST speeds apply to trains permitted to use MU or SP differentials.

No they don't. Only trains listed under the HST heading in the Sectional Appendix table can travel at those speeds.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 80x are also not included but I would have expected them to be able to run at HST speeds on the former LNER HST routes such as Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but clearly not.

I think it is an omission, because here is the list of permissible speeds in the London North Eastern SA, and 80x appears under HST:

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Class 397 SOC dated December 2019 states they can take HST differentials. Extract attached.

'AT300' SOC of the same date likewise states class 800/801/802 can take HST differentials.

Unless these have been subsequently rescinded - I do not have access to any subsequent SOCs - there is a conflict between the SOC and Sectional Appendix, Does the Sectional Appendix overrule the SOC? I'd guess from the above it probably does, maybe one for the relevant TOCs to progress with Network Rail.

 

[Shwam3]

Class 397 SOC dated December 2019 states they can take HST differentials. Extract attached.

'AT300' SOC of the same date likewise states class 800/801/802 can take HST differentials.

Unless these have been subsequently rescinded - I do not have access to any subsequent SOCs - there is a conflict between the SOC and Sectional Appendix, Does the Sectional Appendix overrule the SOC? I'd guess from the above it probably does, maybe one for the relevant TOCs to progress with Network Rail.

No, SoCs overrule the sectional appendix.

 

[hexagon789]

Class 397 SOC dated December 2019 states they can take HST differentials. Extract attached.

'AT300' SOC of the same date likewise states class 800/801/802 can take HST differentials.

Unless these have been subsequently rescinded - I do not have access to any subsequent SOCs - there is a conflict between the SOC and Sectional Appendix, Does the Sectional Appendix overrule the SOC? I'd guess from the above it probably does, maybe one for the relevant TOCs to progress with Network Rail.

Other way round afaik, which I think proves the Scotland SA needs updating