class 450 v class 377

[387star]

sorry this has been done before but can't find it...

All I want to say is the step change in comfort between a 377 and 450 is incredible IMO

The 450s are so quiet! They have far smarter radiator grills and inter carriage doors, the seats and carpet are attractive and have aged well and the guard has his own cubicle! They feel really plush

The 377s do not ride nearly so well. I did not find the 450 uncomfortable between Havant and Guildford either and would much rather have them than a southern 377 provided they arn't too busy.

They feel ultra modern even now and look classy in the dark blue

377s look and feel shabbier

Okay the 377 was in a terrible condition but still. Perhaps the 450s are better maintained as they operate through a very rich area?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well that's what you get when you build a quality product. Desiros might be heavy but they're put together like battleships and I think it shows. As for the maintenance I don't think it has much to do with the wealth of the area and more to do with Siemens being in direct charge of the maintenance of the fleet at dedicated train care facilities.

 

[wintonian]

377's are IMO a shabby and an uncomfortable pile of junk.

I was going to do a thread at some point with a few moans about southern, one of which was going to be the state of the 377's (Southampton - Brighton on one makes me almost dream of Pacers) and their really annoying squeaky drop down trays- for Gods sake will some one buy Southern a can of WD40 for Christmas before I start going down the carriages oiling the things my self, arghh


Southern can keep their 377's, I'm very happy with the 444's we get here thanks!

 

[junglejames]

Desiros are definitely a better train, but Electrostars are much more comfortable. Just a shame about all the other downfalls. The squeaky seat back tables is a perfect example of the little annoyances.

 

[D365]

Is it me or does any one else find Desiro traction quiter than the Electrostar equivalent.

 

[wintonian]

Desiros are definitely a better train, but Electrostars are much more comfortable. Just a shame about all the other downfalls. The squeaky seat back tables is a perfect example of the little annoyances.

Believe me its not a little annoyance at 07:30 when trying to sleep on the way to Eastbourne. :-x

 

[EM2]

I love a 377 on a fast run to Brighton!

 

[Class377/5]

On Friday me and a mate decided on a London day out where we did;

1x 350
2x 360
1x 378
2x 377
2x 450
1x 456
1x S7

I can say for sure that the Desiro was a much better ride than the Electrostar. Internally they feel much lighter and airy than the Electrostar which always seemed to feel confined. Even the 378 and S7 feel darker than a 450 to me.

However I was shocked by the state of the 377's. One was a /2 and other a /4 and both seats were in terrible condition. The Milton Keynes unit was in better state but not by much. Southern needs to get a move on with re-doing the seats before there's nothing left.

Can't even say its an owning group thing as the 350/1 looked worn but not down to bald patches like on the 377's.

 

[wintonian]

Oh and another thing the SN 377's are the only stock I have come across in recent years that have more graffiti on the inside than they do on the outside, I would like to say this is due the excellent exterior cleaning regime but alas I fear it is no different to most other TOC's

and talking about shabby trains heres my opinion on Northerns from earlier in the year.

 

[fgwrich]

Oh and another thing the SN 377's are the only stock I have come across in recent years that have more graffiti on the inside than they do on the outside, I would like to say this is due the excellent exterior cleaning regime but alas I fear it is no different to most other TOC's

and talking about shabby trains heres my opinion on Northerns from earlier in the year.

Oh i'll agree with whats been said already. I also really hate that interior carpet Bombardier uses across the Electrostar range under the windows - Which seems to get very dirty very quickly and become a very easy target for vandilism.

 

[bronzeonion]

Its a shame the very wide ranging and mixed fleet of 377's are used to represent Electrostars. Southeasterns Class 375's are a far more uniform fleet apart from the horrible 375/9's!

I definitely prefer the Electrostar over a Desiro. They look better, sound better, are more comfortable, doors are quicker to open and close, can't talk from experience but the cabs look far more ergonomical in an Electrostar than a Desiro, air conditioning doesn't sound like Henry the Hoover, yeah the ride quality in general is not as good as the Desiro but the drawback of the Desiro ride quality is that over rough points they sway from side to side quite violently at times!

 

[MCR247]

But when it comes to passing trains, 377s are no better than 319s! With desiros there isn't a BANG at all

 

[87015]

Desiros are badly let down by the doors. Having to have a longer station dwell time than any other comparable EMU (that I'm aware of anyway) is just not good enough for stopping work... The 3+2 ones are awful in every shape and form from a passenger point of view, a 357 is far preferable in that setup. The SN 377s have been run into the ground, lots of "refreshed" ones about now but you can see its not going to last as they've done such a nothing job.

 

[317666]

I'd definitely prefer a Desiro. The 379s have awful seats, complete with squeaky seat-back tables, the interior lighting is too harsh, the ride quality is lurchy at the best of times, gangway doors keep failing and they're starting to rattle inside already, despite only being a year or two old! On the other hand, I find Desiros to have an extremely smooth ride, the 3+2 ones have an acceptable interior for what they work, and the 2+2 ones have quite a comfortable interior, the lighting isn't too bright and they don't rattle!

 

[387star]

I'd definitely prefer a Desiro. The 379s have awful seats, complete with squeaky seat-back tables, the interior lighting is too harsh, the ride quality is lurchy at the best of times, gangway doors keep failing and they're starting to rattle inside already, despite only being a year or two old! On the other hand, I find Desiros to have an extremely smooth ride, the 3+2 ones have an acceptable interior for what they work, and the 2+2 ones have quite a comfortable interior, the lighting isn't too bright and they don't rattle!

Great so its not just me! The 377 was in a shocking state but then it was saturday night!! I was really impressed by south west trains. I would say southern are doing well with the refurb and seat back tables are no longer squeaky despite an insider telling me they were impossible to fix... The vestibule carpets make a huge difference too. Then again 450s, yes not even a 444, have excellent overhead luggage racks and never got in the state some 377s have with their caked in dirt carpets. Also why have no standard with layout and fc? And why the need for velcro on every seat?!

 

[Monty]

Compared to a 377, the 450s do look rather sparse as they are optimised for capacity rather than comfort. I can see why passengers are not too keen on them on services to and from Portsmouth and Poole etc, the 444s are far better suited to these longer distance journeys. On solution would be to create a dedicated sub class (much like the 450/5 HCs) with a 2+2 seating layout similar to the 444s for mainline work, however I do not think SWT have units spare to dedicate to such use.

From a guard's perspective on the outersuburban duties like Reading, Windsor, Basingstoke & Alton services they are remarkably well suited for this kind of work. However it's their use on Hounslow rounders and Weybridge Via Hounslow services that raise a few eyebrows. The timings are tight and it's near impossible to keep to stay right time around the loop (though you do get a bit of space at Hounslow to make up for it). As 87015 has also mentioned the doors take longer to open and close which can be a pain when you have less than a minute at each station stop. The units are not particularly suited to the 'stop-go' nature of the Hounslow Loop either.

In short, the 444/450s are good trains, 458s are better trains and 455s are great trains from this guard's point of view.

 

[387star]

Oh and yes gangway doors do often fail. Raduator grilles on some units look cheap and nasty with the plastic rubber bits hanging down at intervals (what are these for?) and the random bits of plastic everywhere... The plastic on 450 ages better and looks more seamless

 

[BestWestern]

Okay, I'll fly the flag for the Electrostar then!

I don't like Desiro's a great deal, they are incredibly dull and lacking of any character whatsoever. The class 444 is one of the most poorly laid out trains in service today, with absolutely no decent luggage or stowage space whatsoever except for a tiny little bike rack opposite the toilet. Yes they were built for commuters, but they also serve the seaside markets of the Dorset coast, for which they are completely unsuitable. Try travelling on one with luggage, or indeed with a small child in a pushchair. The air conditioning is very aggressive both in terms of the intrusive noise level within the saloons and the ice cold temperature, which can make bringing a coat a wise move even if it is blazing hot outside. It's not just the air con which makes a racket either; if you sit over the bogies your journey is punctuated by a frequent and slightly unnerving clunking from the depths of the undercarriage - though I would have to concede that the ride quality is indeed very good. The non-disabled toilet is stupidly cramped and brings to mind a grotty public convenience with it's deeply unwelcoming stainless steel pan. I also find the bright white interior finish a little harsh, particularly first thing in the morning if one's eyes are still waking up!

I much prefer the Electrostar (going by Southern's 375/377 fleet), which in my humble view looks better, sounds better, is better laid out and has a softer and more comfortable interior ambiance.

 

[TEW]

It's not just the air con which makes a racket either; if you sit over the bogies your journey is punctuated by a frequent and slightly unnerving clunking from the depths of the undercarriage - though I would have to concede that the ride quality is indeed very good.

I'm glad someone mentioned the bogie noise, it's something I notice a lot on the 450s. I find that generally they are quite loud inside for modern electric trains. The ride over pointwork is quite rough as well. The main advantage of the 375/377s over 450s in my opinion though is the interior, I much prefer the seats on the 375/377s, they actually have some padding for a start, and the 2+2 layout is much better than a 2+3 layout with very narrow seats. They aren't actually that uncomfortable when the trains is quiet, but once about 50% of seats are occupied people start to stand rather than sit because sitting with any more than that used is rather uncomfortable on the 450s.

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of curiosity which scores best in terms of MPC or MP5MD or MITN or whatever the hell the measure is these days!

 

[Class377/5]

Out of curiosity which scores best in terms of MPC or MP5MD or MITN or whatever the hell the measure is these days!

From January's Modern Railways based on MTIN MAA,

1 350/2 Desiro 55,482
3 350/2 Desiro 48,181
4 444/0 Desiro 45,060
6 350/1 Desiro 40,657
7 360/0 Desiro 35,072
8 375/8 /9 Electrostar 32,700
9 450 Desiro 30,697
10 357 Electrostar 27,765
11 377 Electrostar 25,993
12 360/2 Desiro 24,173
13 375/3 /6 /7 Electrostar 23,858
15 376 Electrostar 14,676
16 377/5 Electrostar 14,319
20 378/2 Electrostar 9,453
21 379 Electrostar 9,309
26 380 Desiro 6,652
28 378/1 Electrostar 7,843

Apart from the 380's, its a clear win for the Desiro family. And it seems the new build Desiro's are far better than the older ones. Is Siemens upgrading each design with improvements?

 

[87015]

357s are reportable storming up again, MAA is now just shy of 50k, last period was 90k+...

 

[Surreyman]

Desiros are definitely a better train, but Electrostars are much more comfortable. Just a shame about all the other downfalls. The squeaky seat back tables is a perfect example of the little annoyances.

Completely agree, the reason that 450s are not as comfortable are; -
1. 3 +2 seating.
2. Seat rake, the seats on 450s are much more upright than 444s, which are by far the most comfortable EMU in service.
I don't travel on electrostars that often but I find the seats on these (and Turbostars - 170s) very comfortable.

 

[notadriver]

The 450's cab looks quite cramped to me, compared with other Electrostars with a gangway connection.

 

[Class377/5]

Completely agree, the reason that 450s are not as comfortable are; -
1. 3 +2 seating.
2. Seat rake, the seats on 450s are much more upright than 444s, which are by far the most comfortable EMU in service.
I don't travel on electrostars that often but I find the seats on these (and Turbostars - 170s) very comfortable.

If 3+2 seating is a mark down for the 450 then you've got to mark down the Electrostar as they both have it depending on the configuration/sub class.

 

[ryan125hst]

I'm glad someone mentioned the bogie noise, it's something I notice a lot on the 450s. I find that generally they are quite loud inside for modern electric trains. The ride over pointwork is quite rough as well.

Funnily enough, I've just been watching a video of a 444 and they also seem to have a strange noise (presumably because they are also Desiro's).

Is this the noise you were talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZTuIRmhTZQ&feature=related

It can be heard at around 4:20. It continues throughout the video and can be heard later on in the video where it can be heard in addition to the usual track noise that you hear on any train at high speed.

 

[BestWestern]

Funnily enough, I've just been watching a video of a 444 and they also seem to have a strange noise (presumably because they are also Desiro's).

Is this the noise you were talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZTuIRmhTZQ&feature=related

It can be heard at around 4:20. It continues throughout the video and can be heard later on in the video where it can be heard in addition to the usual track noise that you hear on any train at high speed.

Hmm, it's difficult to pick anything much out there to be honest, but I didn't hear the sounds I'm thinking of. It's probably best described as a clunking or banging sound, and at a guess I would think it's made by the bogies shifting as they navigate the contours of the track.

 

[43074]

Desiros are definitely a better train, but Electrostars are much more comfortable. Just a shame about all the other downfalls. The squeaky seat back tables is a perfect example of the little annoyances.

Agreed. Earlier in the year I travelled to Portsmouth (from London), down on a 444, and up on a 377. Internally, the (2+2 seated) vehicle of the 377/4 I was in was very comfortable, when compared to the 444, but the 377/4 didn't ride so well. An Electrostar with 3+2 is too cramped compared to the Desiro equivalent too.

Also, why are Southern's 377s fitted with 2+2 seats in driving cars, and 3+2 seating in trailer cars (which is too cramped). One or the other would be sensible wouldn't it?

 

[bronzeonion]

Agreed. Earlier in the year I travelled to Portsmouth (from London), down on a 444, and up on a 377. Internally, the (2+2 seated) vehicle of the 377/4 I was in was very comfortable, when compared to the 444, but the 377/4 didn't ride so well. An Electrostar with 3+2 is too cramped compared to the Desiro equivalent too.

Also, why are Southern's 377s fitted with 2+2 seats in driving cars, and 3+2 seating in trailer cars (which is too cramped). One or the other would be sensible wouldn't it?

I think the initial idea was that passengers travelling a long distance were going to sit in the 2+2 with tables area and short distance passengers travel in the middle 2 with 3+2 seating. Of course that was never going to work!

 

[387star]

Someone briefly remind me the reason behind all class 444s being used on the portsmouth direct line on a sunday? presumably because enough are spare

And why on a saturday are they all 450s and the via basingstoke gets 444s? something to do with 444s then working down to Bournemouth... interchangeability or what? Both are great trains.. are greater anglia's 360s as good? Not maintained nearly as well but interested to know?

I was on a southern 377 yesterday which was refurbished with the 2+2 and 3+2 spread throughout and I was impressed.. but ambience wise I still prefer the 450s they look so much classier inside. One of the few modern trains we can be proud of (okay they are German trains) and SWT upholstery and livery is the best!