class 450 v class 377

[317666]

To all the people complaining about Desiro bogey noise. Try sitting above the bogeys on a 170 or 379, you get this constant swishing/hissing noise especially over points!

 

[TEW]

Someone briefly remind me the reason behind all class 444s being used on the portsmouth direct line on a sunday? presumably because enough are spare

And why on a saturday are they all 450s and the via basingstoke gets 444s? something to do with 444s then working down to Bournemouth... interchangeability or what? Both are great trains.. are greater anglia's 360s as good? Not maintained nearly as well but interested to know?

It's not all 444s on a Sunday, it's a mix of 450s and 444s, similar to Weekdays. On Saturday's its pretty much all 8-car 450 formations, which just stick to the Portsmouth route all day. On Weekdays there is a lot more inter-working with other routes. All the Portsmouth via Basingstoke and Poole services are 444s on Saturdays, so there aren't enough for the Portsmouth direct services as well. It's just the way SWT have chosen to allocate stock. It is probably a correct choice capacity wise, the Portsmouth direct services are fairly busy on Saturdays and single 444s probably wouldn't have enough capacity, 8-car 450s do.

 

[bigdelboy]

I travel on SR 377s and SWT 444's and 450 quite a lot.
I think I am repeating what I think a lot of people have already said.

The Doors and door close times:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The 450 and 444 are a disaster with door and and close times. They must lose 25s to 30s per station stops compared to a 377. That is a total disaster on a portsmouth-Waterloo stopper. ( But not a problem on a waterloo-weymouth fast).

The 450/444's can only open doors for all or nothing of a unit; the 377's can open the precise number of doors needed.

The exit times for passengers on an overcrowded 444 is a nightmare ... I think they tend to get used more on portsmouth stoppers rather than fasts in the rush hour when not so many want to get off at once.

The disabled loo swing door has different open/close controlls. I only under than the 450's that have a lock handle .... all others can result in an embarrassing door openning.


The Seating
~~~~~~~~

The mix of 4 and 5 seating in a lot of the 377's is quite effective.

The 450 5 wide seating is IMHO a disaster. Its really difficult to get 5 wide .. and if one does it is uncomfortable. The seats are too hard and too upright. And the gangways do not help fast loading or unloading or comfortable standing.

The 377s are generally more comfortable. I sleep in them better. But the ride can be a worst than a 444/450 and it does feel like a lesser quality build.

I fancy the 450's and 444 are a little bit more reliable than 377's. I recall more occasions of a 377 being rebooted or hard rebooted than a 450 to clar faults.

.....

Summary:
~~~~~~

I like the 377; the door opening time is good, and any number of carriages can open. the seats are relatively comfortable. The mix of 5 wide and 4 wide seatng is generally good. The reliability and ride is more of a question mark; and I wonder if they are worse in snow.

The 450 would be brilliant if:
(1) some 4 wide comfortable seating was introduced, at least partially , (and first class done away with completely ... its only for SWT bosses mostly)
(2): the door opening/closing time issues was solved.
(3): The result was painted white like a 450.
(4): A selectable number of doors could open
That then would be a cracking unit.

The 444's are white elephant's ... the comfort and 4x4 seaing is okay but they are not optimal for most of the services they are used for; and get into issues if they become ovecrowded. They should have a pantograph fitted and go north where life wold suit them better.

 

[Monty]

(4): A selectable number of doors could open

You'll be pleased to know in the near future the 450/444s will be able to do SDOs where the all the doors that are accomodated on the platform will be released.

 

[ainsworth74]

You'll be pleased to know in the near future the 450/444s will be able to do SDOs where the all the doors that are accomodated on the platform will be released.

Never quite understood why Desiros didn't have that from new. 185s only have Unit Deselect and seeing they don't have gangways this is less than optimal to say the least.

 

[Monty]

450/444s can and do SDO on a daily basis, The problem is you can only either release all the doors or restrict the released doors to a specific unit. An example would be Datchet railway station on the down side, when trains stop there you can fit about 7 coaches of an 8 coach 450 formation. But you are only able open the front 4 coaches, in the future we will be able to open all of the 7.

 

[ainsworth74]

450/444s can and do SDO on a daily basis, The problem is you can only either release all the doors or restrict the released doors to a specific unit. An example would be Datchet railway station on the down side, when trains stop there you can fit about 7 coaches of an 8 coach 450 formation. But you are only able open the front 4 coaches, in the future we will be able to open all of the 7.

Sorry that's what I meant by Unit Deselect (I thought that was the term for it!). On 'proper' SDO you can select which doors you want to be opened (so seven out of eight in your example) whilst on Unit Deselect you can either open all the doors or just the doors on specific units (four out of eight in your example).

 

[paul1609]

450/444s can and do SDO on a daily basis, The problem is you can only either release all the doors or restrict the released doors to a specific unit. An example would be Datchet railway station on the down side, when trains stop there you can fit about 7 coaches of an 8 coach 450 formation. But you are only able open the front 4 coaches, in the future we will be able to open all of the 7.

Its not before time. I actually think the operation of 444/450 combos on the Portsmouth direct line was quite dangerous.
Ive seen disabled people in the wrong unit bursting in to tears and passengers operating the emergency door release at Havant when the switched out unit couldnt be switched back in again after a stop at Fratton.

 

[Monty]

Its not before time. I actually think the operation of 444/450 combos on the Portsmouth direct line was quite dangerous.
Ive seen disabled people in the wrong unit bursting in to tears and passengers operating the emergency door release at Havant when the switched out unit couldnt be switched back in again after a stop at Fratton.

I agree entirely, it will benefit the 444s mostly as there are quite a few stops on the Direct line where you can only do a LDO (local door operation) and means only one door is actually opened! When this system goes live it will allow the 444s open more doors at stations with exceptionally short platforms. It is however just as dependant on Network Rail install the trackside equipment for the system to work.

 

[junglejames]

2. Seat rake, the seats on 450s are much more upright than 444s, which are by far the most comfortable EMU in service.

We wont be agreeing here! I rank 444s along with virtually all other Desiros. Awful seats. Awful. 375s beat all Desiros comfort wise. Also internal ambience wise. As BestWestern noted, Desiros havent got much of an ambience to them.

These are the areas where Electrostars win hands down. Every other area, is pretty much Desiro territory. Except perhaps for layout, which as BW says, isnt that good on 444s.

A 450 is a poor mans 458
A 444 is a poor mans 442
An Electrostar is a cheap version of what should be a good commuter unit. Lets say a poor mans 458 again. Built on the cheap compared to a 450, but more comfortable, and a nicer ambience inside.

 

[Goatboy]

A 444 is a poor mans 442

I'm still not sure I fully understand why SWT got rid of these. I cannot think of a more appropriate unit for a Waterloo to Weymouth service. They were absolutely excellent.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm still not sure I fully understand why SWT got rid of these. I cannot think of a more appropriate unit for a Waterloo to Weymouth service. They were absolutely excellent.

Agreed.

A 444 is a poor mans 442.

Also agreed.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Haters gonna hate, personally I love 444s

I do have to say, the refit of the 442s for the Gatwick Express has been awful, they are so uncomfortable and totally unsuited to airport shuttle services. I gather that they were somewhat nicer under SWT, but personally I would take a 444 over any other electric multiple unit in the country, they are also probably the only class of any train in the country I would go out of my way to get on. I also think that an AC version would be perfect for London-Norwich and other such services. As for asking if Desiros are better than Electrostars, I think they are by a country mile. The 377 is probably my least-favourite EMU.

 

[wintonian]

442's are my favourite unit and it was a ad day when we lost them and the seats are now the most uncomfortable on the network IMO, a far cry from when I used to go to college or out for a night on the town on a slammer and back on a 442.

 

[Fincra5]

My only gripe with being in a 10mile radius of a 450/444 is being deafened my the sharp tones of the door release!

 

[MK Tom]

As others have already said, Electrostars have much more comfortable seating, a better seating layout and faster door opening times than Desiros. If I'm going to Leighton or Hemel I'll always aim for the Southern service so I get a table and a puffy seat. Also the sound of the air con on Desiros is excessive, but their big issue is the seats. They're simply not comfortable. When I go to Stafford on one I spend half the time with my feet on the radiator and my knees up my nose, constantly shuffling around to try to sit on parts of the seat I haven't already flattened.

That said 444s are significantly more comfortable than any other Desiro class.

 

[transmanche]

My only gripe with being in a 10mile radius of a 450/444 is being deafened my the sharp tones of the door release!

You should try travelling on one of the refurbished T&W Metro units... my ears are still ringing!

 

[WCML]

The 350/1s are excellent units IMO. The air con noise is a bit annoying, but the units are very quiet, so you probably notice it more than on other units.
I can quite easily fall asleep on a 350/1 if im in an aisle seat. The London Midland units with the blue interiors are lovely, much better than the green that they've got on the 350/2s. They'll be very good come December when they get to do 110mph on the WCML. My only real gripe about Desiros is the lack of power points in Standard Class but other than that they are nice trains, other than the seating arrangements on the /2s.

Not a fan of the Electrostar/Turbostar interiors. Seats on the turbostars aren't great and the plastic inside looks very dirty on some of the LM and CrossCountry units I've been on recently, so much so that I'd rather go on a Voyager! The air con vents on the -star trains look dated too aswell as the dodgy electronic scrolling displays. Siemens trains with the holes in the ceiling and the dotted display boards look a lot better.

 

[fgwrich]

My only gripe with being in a 10mile radius of a 450/444 is being deafened my the sharp tones of the door release!

You should try travelling on one of the refurbished T&W Metro units... my ears are still ringing!

You should try those awful 379s then. Door Opening / Closing noises soo loud that you can head them from the other end of the coach - as if you were standing in next to the speaker!

 

[starrymarkb]

The Scotrail 318s are also very loud on door release!

 

[bronzeonion]

I must say the 379's are not great, nowhere near as good as the earlier builds of 375 and 377's. My theory on it is because NX being NX probably wanted the new trains to be as cheap as possible so Bombardier gave them a deal of trialling Aventra features on the 379's to lower the cost of the trains to NX.

 

[transmanche]

You should try those awful 379s then. Door Opening / Closing noises soo loud that you can head them from the other end of the coach - as if you were standing in next to the speaker!

No, honestly... the door opening tones on the refurbished Metros will make your ears bleed Have a listen...

(Along with constant 'bongs' from the PIS, it makes for a very unpleasant ride )

 

[Rick1984]

I've travelled a few times on 450's on portsmouth harbour services and they are nice. However I find it a long way to go on a commuter train and I've never had the pleasure of a 444.

 

[Monty]

I've always thought the 458's door alarms were worse than our 450/444s.

 

[Robinson]

I've always thought the 458's door alarms were worst than our 450/444s.

From my limited experience of the 458s, and my extremely frequent use of the 444s, I'd have to agree.

That said, I do rather like the Turbostars and Electrostars (except for the 378s, but that's primarily due to the longitudinal seating). Although the Chiltern 168s are probably the stand-out in terms of comfort of seats.

 

[The Ham]

I'm still not sure I fully understand why SWT got rid of these. I cannot think of a more appropriate unit for a Waterloo to Weymouth service. They were absolutely excellent.

As it turns out having 444's will allow the conversion of the 3rd rail to overhead cable between Basingstoke and Southampton (and beyond in due time?).

I personally prefer the 444's over the 442's as they appear to be lower to the platform and lighter inside. It also means that the guard is more likely to come and check tickets on a stopping service as they can open the doors from anywhere rather than having to get back to the middle of the train for each station stop.

 

[BestWestern]

Not a fan of the Electrostar/Turbostar interiors. Seats on the turbostars aren't great...

Seats on a Desiro are bloody awful!

 

[notadriver]

Just ridden a 450 on Waterloo to Windsor line. The initial surge of acceleration up to about 20 mph is excellent. Are they all like that ?

 

[pompeyfan]

all new EMUs are excellent at accelerating if the driver throws it straight in to full power...

personally i prefer the 450s over the 377s, they are brighter and a more pleasant atmosphere, without feeling 'clinical' or intrusive...

however i'm going to play devils advocate and throw the topic another direction, the only over class of train that does similar work on the south coast is the humble 158... now... would joe and jo public prefer a 377 or a 158 on the same route...?

 

[Robinson]

If it's a choice between a 158 and a 377, the 377 wins every time.