Class 60's to Colas

[ExRes]

60022, was that the one that carried the name Mallard Tor ?

 

[Jamesb1974]

Super 60s are capable of 75mph

NO, the 'Super 60' is not capable of 75mph.

I can't believe people are still harping on with this '75mph' crap. :roll:

Here is a little tale that may make some people make up their minds.

I was recently diagrammed to work a light engine (66) from Peak Forest to Earles sidings and collect an empty set of HTA hoppers, final destination of the train being South Wales (Cwmbargoed I think).

On loco prep, the allocated 66 was found to have a brake block that was cracked all the way across it's width. The fitters rightly failed the loco, leaving us in a quandry as to what to do. The only available loco at the time was a 'Super 60' (60 057 I think it was).

The HTA set was fitted with buffers and draw gear (making it compatible with a non auto-coupler fitted 60), but using the available 60 was not an option as........

The train to Cmwbargoed is a class 4 (75mph) and GUESS WHAT! A 60 cannot do 75mph!

So, long wait, have a brew and eventually nick an incoming 66 a few hours later and use that instead.

Now, if as some people on this thread INSIST, a class 60 can do 75mph, control would have told us to take 057 that was sitting, throbbing away behind Peak Forest box and we would have been away without issue.

But, the fact is they CAN'T do 75 mph. Never have been able to do 75mph and never will do 75mph.

And ask yourself another question.

Why is it, when both a class 60 and a class 66 have virtually identical base stats (class 60: Weight 129 tons, 3100hp/ Class 66: Weight 127 tons, 3200hp), can a class 60 produce 106,500lb ft of tractive effort and a 66 can only manage 91,900 lb ft?

GEARING. That's why. A 66 is geared to travel at higher speed (75mph), hence it trades it's low down torque for high end speed. A 60 trades its high end speed for low down torque.

And that, gentlemen is the bottom line. A class 60, DOES 60!

 

[#1 driver]

its been said before , but some people won't believe you !

:roll:

 

[ac6000cw]

Re. the testing of 60's at 75 mph (which was covered in Modern Railways at the time - around 1991 ? - but I don't still have the magazine to prove it), there are a few more opinions here - http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...f=14&t=115&start=80+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

But, no, their maximum service speed has never been higher than 60 mph, AFAIK.

 

[Jamesb1974]

It was service speed I was specifically referring too, given the previous comments about 'Super 60s' being able to achieve 75mph.

But if you do dig out the magazine I think we'd all be interested to see it.

 

[ac6000cw]

But if you do dig out the magazine I think we'd all be interested to see it.

So would I, but I checked earlier today and I haven't got anything much before 1998 now - if I'd kept all the ones I've ever bought I'd have 40 years worth upstairs....

 

[philbl2000]

NO, the 'Super 60' is not capable of 75mph.

I can't believe people are still harping on with this '75mph' crap. :roll:

Here is a little tale that may make some people make up their minds.

I was recently diagrammed to work a light engine (66) from Peak Forest to Earles sidings and collect an empty set of HTA hoppers, final destination of the train being South Wales (Cwmbargoed I think).

On loco prep, the allocated 66 was found to have a brake block that was cracked all the way across it's width. The fitters rightly failed the loco, leaving us in a quandry as to what to do. The only available loco at the time was a 'Super 60' (60 057 I think it was).

The HTA set was fitted with buffers and draw gear (making it compatible with a non auto-coupler fitted 60), but using the available 60 was not an option as........

The train to Cmwbargoed is a class 4 (75mph) and GUESS WHAT! A 60 cannot do 75mph!

So, long wait, have a brew and eventually nick an incoming 66 a few hours later and use that instead.

Now, if as some people on this thread INSIST, a class 60 can do 75mph, control would have told us to take 057 that was sitting, throbbing away behind Peak Forest box and we would have been away without issue.

But, the fact is they CAN'T do 75 mph. Never have been able to do 75mph and never will do 75mph.

And ask yourself another question.

Why is it, when both a class 60 and a class 66 have virtually identical base stats (class 60: Weight 129 tons, 3100hp/ Class 66: Weight 127 tons, 3200hp), can a class 60 produce 106,500lb ft of tractive effort and a 66 can only manage 91,900 lb ft?

GEARING. That's why. A 66 is geared to travel at higher speed (75mph), hence it trades it's low down torque for high end speed. A 60 trades its high end speed for low down torque.

And that, gentlemen is the bottom line. A class 60, DOES 60!

If it is gearing then can you explain why all the class 59 subclasses have the same gearing (62:15) and yet have different maximum speeds?
I would of thought the real reason is the software controlling the locos.

 

[Jamesb1974]

59/0 are not fitted with Yaw dampers, hence 60mph top speed. 59/1 & 59/2 ARE fitted with yaw dampers, so 75 mph top speed.

Gearing is the same.

That said I don't sign 59's but I DO sign 60's.

 

[Forfut]

NO, the 'Super 60' is not capable of 75mph.

I can't believe people are still harping on with this '75mph' crap. :roll:

Here is a little tale that may make some people make up their minds.

I was recently diagrammed to work a light engine (66) from Peak Forest to Earles sidings and collect an empty set of HTA hoppers, final destination of the train being South Wales (Cwmbargoed I think).

On loco prep, the allocated 66 was found to have a brake block that was cracked all the way across it's width. The fitters rightly failed the loco, leaving us in a quandry as to what to do. The only available loco at the time was a 'Super 60' (60 057 I think it was).

The HTA set was fitted with buffers and draw gear (making it compatible with a non auto-coupler fitted 60), but using the available 60 was not an option as........

The train to Cmwbargoed is a class 4 (75mph) and GUESS WHAT! A 60 cannot do 75mph!

So, long wait, have a brew and eventually nick an incoming 66 a few hours later and use that instead.

Now, if as some people on this thread INSIST, a class 60 can do 75mph, control would have told us to take 057 that was sitting, throbbing away behind Peak Forest box and we would have been away without issue.

But, the fact is they CAN'T do 75 mph. Never have been able to do 75mph and never will do 75mph.

And ask yourself another question.

Why is it, when both a class 60 and a class 66 have virtually identical base stats (class 60: Weight 129 tons, 3100hp/ Class 66: Weight 127 tons, 3200hp), can a class 60 produce 106,500lb ft of tractive effort and a 66 can only manage 91,900 lb ft?

GEARING. That's why. A 66 is geared to travel at higher speed (75mph), hence it trades it's low down torque for high end speed. A 60 trades its high end speed for low down torque.

And that, gentlemen is the bottom line. A class 60, DOES 60!

It can't it can do 75mph. I think your wrong.

 

[34D]

NO, the 'Super 60' is not capable of 75mph.

I can't believe people are still harping on with this '75mph' crap. :roll:

Here is a little tale that may make some people make up their minds.

I was recently diagrammed to work a light engine (66) from Peak Forest to Earles sidings and collect an empty set of HTA hoppers, final destination of the train being South Wales (Cwmbargoed I think).

On loco prep, the allocated 66 was found to have a brake block that was cracked all the way across it's width. The fitters rightly failed the loco, leaving us in a quandry as to what to do. The only available loco at the time was a 'Super 60' (60 057 I think it was).

The HTA set was fitted with buffers and draw gear (making it compatible with a non auto-coupler fitted 60), but using the available 60 was not an option as........

The train to Cmwbargoed is a class 4 (75mph) and GUESS WHAT! A 60 cannot do 75mph!

So, long wait, have a brew and eventually nick an incoming 66 a few hours later and use that instead.

Now, if as some people on this thread INSIST, a class 60 can do 75mph, control would have told us to take 057 that was sitting, throbbing away behind Peak Forest box and we would have been away without issue.

But, the fact is they CAN'T do 75 mph. Never have been able to do 75mph and never will do 75mph.

And ask yourself another question.

Why is it, when both a class 60 and a class 66 have virtually identical base stats (class 60: Weight 129 tons, 3100hp/ Class 66: Weight 127 tons, 3200hp), can a class 60 produce 106,500lb ft of tractive effort and a 66 can only manage 91,900 lb ft?

GEARING. That's why. A 66 is geared to travel at higher speed (75mph), hence it trades it's low down torque for high end speed. A 60 trades its high end speed for low down torque.

And that, gentlemen is the bottom line. A class 60, DOES 60!

Some guy on the platform at Warrington says they can, so it must be right yeahh?

 

[Suraggu]

I read a threads on another forum a case I think in 1991/1992 they did a test to see about a class 60 doing 75mph with a software tinker from Brush. From that test their was many negatives why the test was just a test.

 

[stibz]

Some guy on the platform at Warrington says they can, so it must be right yeahh?

Absolutely, your 100% right with mods

 

[WestCountry]

It can't it can do 75mph. I think your wrong.

So you're telling someone who drives the things for a living that he's 'wrong', in response to a fairly detailed post telling you exactly how he knows they're limited to 60, without even bothering to support your assertion at all? :roll:

I suspect they could be made to do 75mph without major alterations - the 59/1s and /2s can with even more TE, albeit slightly higher HP - but it seems pretty obvious that they've never been permitted to in normal service or on more than a few occasions.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When the 'Super 60' project was first announced, there was some mention of upping their top speed to 75mph... However, that was AFAIK only in 'LIAR' Magazine and in any case has been discredited by more than one member of this forum that drives the things for a living! So I think the subject can probably be put to bed now!

 

[Legzr1]

I suspect they could be made to do 75mph without major alterations - the 59/1s and /2s can with even more TE, albeit slightly higher HP - but it seems pretty obvious that they've never been permitted to in normal service or on more than a few occasions.

Down a hill with getting on for 3000T trailing weight they WILL get close to 75mph.

Allegedly...

But, get caught with a download and you're in a little bother!

Many years ago our 'class' were at Immingham (doing Cl 56 training) and a fairly new Cl 60 was in the shed being stripped because of major computer faults (not uncommon on the early loco's) - it was over a pit and the lead fitter took us all down to have a look at the workings - one thing sticks in my mind - we were all warned about the dangers of over speeding the Cl 60 as there was a real risk of the traction motor 'spinning' on the axle - the sheer size of it meant a 90 degree movement would cause the TM to dig into the sleepers almost guaranteeing derailment.

I wouldn't take the chance.

Those with more experience (and two posts) please feel free though...

 

[Forfut]

So you're telling someone who drives the things for a living that he's 'wrong', in response to a fairly detailed post telling you exactly how he knows they're limited to 60, without even bothering to support your assertion at all? :roll:

I suspect they could be made to do 75mph without major alterations - the 59/1s and /2s can with even more TE, albeit slightly higher HP - but it seems pretty obvious that they've never been permitted to in normal service or on more than a few occasions.

Calm down my dear!!! I'm genuinely stirring with a big wooden spoon here!! I maintain them for a living. #superfitter

 

[ExRes]

Calm down my dear!!! I'm genuinely stirring with a big wooden spoon here!! I maintain them for a living. #superfitter

You like living dangerously, you also, of course, run the risk of having a Class 60 speedo carved on your headstone whether you want it or not

 

[fergusjbend]

I have found this thread very interesting, if a little confusing! Have I got this right?

1. 60's are less powerful than 66's, but have greater tractive effort (and lower speed) due to lower gearing.

2. 60's are more technologically advanced than 66's, but less reliable.

3. 70's are comparable with 66's in terms of power and tractive effort, but more fuel efficient.

4. How do electric locos such as class 92's compare with these diesels?

I hope for enlightenment!

Fergus

 

[455driver]

1. yes

2. yes, not sure about the (un)reliability of the refurb 60s, they seem to be reliable enough.

3. no, a 70 has greater power and tractive effort than any of the others plus a 75mph max speed.

4. A 92 is more powerful and faster but has a lower maximum tractive effort (than a 70) due to the higher gearing.

 

[Jamesb1974]

1) Yes

2) Sort of. The refurbished 60's seem to be ok. I've not had anything go bang so far and they do get thrashed, especially on the LBT-Fiddlers Ferry circuit.

3) Don't know about 70's as we dont have them (although anecdotal evidence from some ground staff members suggests they are not the most popular of locomotives to work with).

4) Yes, but again the 92 is flawed. Poor cab design (non reclining seats for example), over complicated and temperamental in the extreme. Don't look at them the wrong way or even talk about them within earshot. I swear they can hear everything you say and throw hissy fits accordingly.

Awful things (in my opinion).

 

[#1 driver]

60s do have less power than 66s , but it's only 200bhp .
can't remember the last time I had a problem with a 60 .

 

[Beveridges]

Post Deleted

 

[#1 driver]

1) yes a 60 is less powerful than a 56 or 66. But has higher tractive effort and lower speed.

so are you now saying a class 60 can only do 60mph ?

 

[Beveridges]

The 60s when new were tested at 100mph on the midland mainline. They are now restricted to 60mph.

 

[sprinterguy]

Deleted

 

[Jamesb1974]

Christ, here we go again.

 

[455driver]

Christ, here we go again.

We still dont have any proof though!

The fact that the traction motors would probably explode at those sort of revs seems to have passed him by, even if they did manage to hold themselves together the loco certainly wouldnt be accepted into traffic with those motors still fitted.

Would you accept a brand new car if you knew that the engine (with a red line at 6000rpm) had been reved to 9500rpm to see if it would hold together?
I certainly wouldnt!
If it doesnt do any harm why were the AC motors on the 350/1s fitted with extra banding on the commutator (or whatever its called on an AC motor) to allow them to have their maximum speed increased from 100mph to 110mph bearing in mind they are tested to that anyway?
To take a motor to 50% above its maximum is ludicrous!

 

[Legzr1]

Time and time again this fool proves his lack of knowledge and people still bite.

Ignore the 5mph troll

60 -vs- 66: don't get hung up on absolute power output - the electronics, management systems and wheel creep functions fitted to the 60 are on another level compared to the low-tech workhorse 66.
I've had a few failures with 60's (flashing and steady power faults) but that was years ago - the refurb'd loco's seem far, far better.

92's - arrggggg.... Fantastic power and acceleration but only when the buggers actually find any kind of traction - they're simply too light and have too little tractive effort to be of any use on a moderately heavy freight train. Add in a little light rain and you can forget it. They're great for what they're designed for - high speed light trains in sunny conditions

 

[captainbigun]

92's - arrggggg.... Fantastic power and acceleration but only when the buggers actually find any kind of traction - they're simply too light and have too little tractive effort to be of any use on a moderately heavy freight train. Add in a little light rain and you can forget it. They're great for what they're designed for - high speed light trains in sunny conditions

At 126 tonnes a 92 is hardly light, a 66 is a little heavier. They are now being used to move some pretty heavy trains over the northern hills without any bother. High speed they are not.

 

[Legzr1]

'Light on their wheels' is the phrase commonly used by those that have suffered with them over the years - maybe I should have added those three vital words

Any details on what you consider 'heavy' and 'without any bother'?

I've seen first hand the frustration on the faces of drivers and controllers at two different companies using these loco's.

Saying that, there's a chance you know more than JamesB and myself.