Class 93 Tri-mode Loco

[Richard Scott]

And over 100mph, the friction is almost all wind resistance, which varies as the cube of the speed. (So doubling the power of a train will increase its balancing speed by around 25%.)

Thought it was squared not cubed? No expert in aerodynamics, though!

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

ORR Authorisation to Place into Service:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-12/stadler-rail-class-93-orr-authoristation-letter-2023-12-14.pdf

Pat

 

[Nottingham59]

Thought it was squared not cubed? No expert in aerodynamics, though!

The resistive force is indeed the square of the speed, but power is force times speed.

The way I think of it is:
If the train goes twice as fast it has to push twice as much air out of the way. And each gram of air has to move at twice the speed to get out of the way in time, which takes four times the energy, as E=½mv². So overall you need eight times the energy per second to go twice as fast.

 

[Greybeard33]

The resistive force is indeed the square of the speed, but power is force times speed.

The way I think of it is:
If the train goes twice as fast it has to push twice as much air out of the way. And each gram of air has to move at twice the speed to get out of the way in time, which takes four times the energy, as E=½mv². So overall you need eight times the energy per second to go twice as fast.

Of course this only holds if the track is perfectly flat. On a gradient the weight of the train matters too and the balancing speed varies with the gradient.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting, so yes but it will take a while. I can only think of a few scenarios where it might do 110 on diesel/battery, because even most charter trains never go over 100, (unless LSL whip out their Intercity Mk3 rake more regularly) Mk2s limited to 100, etc. The remaining operators of push pull stock don't really want them anymore, sad as it may be (again, unless TfW have a revelation and switch to 93s), its looking bleak on the passenger side of the coin; I could see quite some potential, but its all dictated by the market I guess. I would love them over the pennines, but that's a fever dream now.

AFAIK the LSL DVT(s) is the only serviceable brake vehicle cleared for more than 100mph operation. The 3 GWR BFOs were designed to operate at 110mph when based on the WCML, but I suspect GWR maintenance schedules have reduced their current operations to the other vehicles working the Cornish Riviera service.

This means 93s don't currently have any rolling stock to commercially regularly work at 100mph+, although I think there are still some 125mph capable HST vehicles rotting away at Ely, which would include TGS. There would be a problem with HST 415V three phase supply to overcome.

 

[Rail Quest]

AFAIK the LSL DVT(s) is the only serviceable brake vehicle cleared for more than 100mph operation.

The MK5a carriages are designed (and therefore I'd assume are cleared) for 125mph I believe.

Source: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/cafs-mark-5-coaches/

 

[Strat-tastic]

Speed at which forward force due to locomotive balances with frictional forces so no longer accelerates.

And over 100mph, the friction is almost all wind resistance, which varies as the cube of the speed. (So doubling the power of a train will increase its balancing speed by around 25%.)

Thanks

 

[Mollman]

ORR Authorisation to Place into Service:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-12/stadler-rail-class-93-orr-authoristation-letter-2023-12-14.pdf

Pat

Thanks for sharing, hopefully we'll see it out testing on the mainline soon

 

[Nym]

AFAIK the LSL DVT(s) is the only serviceable brake vehicle cleared for more than 100mph operation. The 3 GWR BFOs were designed to operate at 110mph when based on the WCML, but I suspect GWR maintenance schedules have reduced their current operations to the other vehicles working the Cornish Riviera service.

This means 93s don't currently have any rolling stock to commercially regularly work at 100mph+, although I think there are still some 125mph capable HST vehicles rotting away at Ely, which would include TGS. There would be a problem with HST 415V three phase supply to overcome.

Also, Mk.4s

 

[chazi898]

As I've pointed out on other threads where it's been suggested (and I suspect someone else will have already said it here too but I've not had time to go through the whole thread) a 93 simply doesn't have the power on diesel to work the current TfW loco hauled services.

Sorry for being a bit pedantic but I can't help notice this contradicts what Nottingham59 said in post #805, with 8 mk3s and a dead HST, would be plenty enough, although if its less power at rail, then you're probably right.

AFAIK the LSL DVT(s) is the only serviceable brake vehicle cleared for more than 100mph operation. The 3 GWR BFOs were designed to operate at 110mph when based on the WCML, but I suspect GWR maintenance schedules have reduced their current operations to the other vehicles working the Cornish Riviera service.

This means 93s don't currently have any rolling stock to commercially regularly work at 100mph+, although I think there are still some 125mph capable HST vehicles rotting away at Ely, which would include TGS. There would be a problem with HST 415V three phase supply to overcome.

I'm not sure where or who would operate them, but whether its a charter operator or regular operator, wouldn't HST Mk3s be incompatible, hence requiring Mk3a's instead (such as Eastern Rail Services Mk3 set)? Not that the chiltern mainline is electrified, but they could be used on loco hauled services there (I know they want rid); would be nice if they upped the limit to 110 on the Haddenham Thame Parkway section, although thats not going to happen as long as they have Class 165s. The only other thing I could think of is that London to Stirling service Grand Union want, with Mk4s in tow, although on their website it says they want to use off lease Class 22x's in the interim.

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry for being a bit pedantic but I can't help notice this contradicts what Nottingham59 said in post #805, with 8 mk3s and a dead HST, would be plenty enough, although if its less power at rail, then you're probably right.

My post and that post aren't contradictory. I'm sure a 93 on diesel would, on a hypothetical entirely flat section of track, be able to get 6 MKIVs to the maximum line speed of the non electrified sections of the TfW network (90 mph).

However, the post doesn't state how long it would take to reach those kinds of speeds, or what happens if there's any kind of incline (and theres a lot of them on the TfW network!). I just don't see how there's any where near enough power, even for the limited periods of time the battery can be used, to keep to the timetable.

 

[Nottingham59]

I just don't see how there's any where near enough power, even for the limited periods of time the battery can be used, to keep to the timetable.

I agree. And if there was a route that a 93 could handle, then it would be much cheaper to simply put a 1300kW class 37 on the front.

What make most sense to me for the 93 is busy freight routes under the wires, where the 4MW would enable paths that diesel traction couldn't deliver.

 

[Dan G]

Some back of the envelope calculations suggest a Class 93 could match the power to weight ratio of a Class 150 with four to five mark 3 carriages (four plus a DVT?) while accelerating under diesel and battery power. Once up to speed, as pointed out before, you're look at the performance of the better Type 2 locos.

Of course they're pretty obviously intended for freight with a side line in rail tours.

 

[chazi898]

Yeah I guess you might as well stick a 37 on the front (just like they used to!) down to Cardiff, just a shame they spent all that money on this batch, yet seems a bit under-specced for what it 'could' do. All well n good hyping up battery power, but if it hasn't got the grunt, it just wont do the shunt!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Some back of the envelope calculations suggest a Class 93 could match the power to weight ratio of a Class 150 with four to five mark 3 carriages (four plus a DVT?) while accelerating under diesel and battery power. Once up to speed, as pointed out before, you're look at the performance of the better Type 2 locos.

Of course they're pretty obviously intended for freight with a side line in rail tours.

And we know that 1250hp class 25s operated several routes up to 90mph, as did some of the Scottish class 27s of similar output.

I think the point which needs remembering is a 250 tonne train, once it is rolling will accelerate. So that battery grunt for the initial few minutes of starting a train can easily be throttled back automatically, so that the diesel can provide it's output and continue the acceleration.

This is new technology to the UK and we need to keep an open mind and see how it performs.

 

[AndrewE]

Some back of the envelope calculations suggest a Class 93 could match the power to weight ratio of a Class 150 with four to five mark 3 carriages (four plus a DVT?) while accelerating under diesel and battery power. Once up to speed, as pointed out before, you're look at the performance of the better Type 2 locos.

Of course they're pretty obviously intended for freight with a side line in rail tours.

The presentation that I went to emphasised that there will be an ongoing market for hauling EMUs to distant locations for refurbishment (unfortunately the delivery of new fleets is pretty well over) and these locos can work dead EMUs and are compatible with their brakes - so without translator wagons, "a fitted head" etc etc - and can run at linespeed, unlike the current position where incompatible traction has to be used.
Look at the ludicrously long trains of mixed vehicles being used to move the new stock to Merseyside - and all the shunting that it generates.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @Rail Quest to add some information.

 

[Rail Quest]

Thanks @Cowley!

I've spotted another Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard move tomorrow - this should be a second attempt to get MK3s to Crewe for use during 93 testing. If so, I'm expecting 93002 to come out of hiding very soon.

The move itself:

Realtime Trains | 5Q42 1330 Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q42 1330 departure from Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The associated moves:

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 0830 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 0830 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5M57 2225 Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5M57 2225 departure from Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[800001]

Thanks @Cowley!

I've spotted another Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard move tomorrow - this should be a second attempt to get MK3s to Crewe for use during 93 testing. If so, I'm expecting 93002 to come out of hiding very soon.

The move itself:

Realtime Trains | 5Q42 1330 Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q42 1330 departure from Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The associated moves:

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 0830 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 0830 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5M57 2225 Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5M57 2225 departure from Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It’s 93001 isn’t it? Believe 002 in Valencia?

 

[Rail Quest]

It’s 93001 isn’t it? Believe 002 in Valencia?

Oops yep thats probably right! I was researching another class of train recently where 002 arrived first, must've gotten confused haha

 

[XCTurbostar]

Makes a change for things coming FROM Yarmouth! (I know these Mk3s are owned by ERS)

 

[Dood75]

Reported to be moving on Monday to Crewe from Worksop.....time will tell

 

[ExRes]

Thanks @Cowley!

I've spotted another Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard move tomorrow - this should be a second attempt to get MK3s to Crewe for use during 93 testing. If so, I'm expecting 93002 to come out of hiding very soon.

The move itself:

Realtime Trains | 5Q42 1330 Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q42 1330 departure from Yarmouth C.H.S. to Crewe South Yard on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The associated moves:

Realtime Trains | 5Q48 0830 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q48 0830 departure from Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Yarmouth C.H.S. on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5M57 2225 Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) | 05/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5M57 2225 departure from Crewe South Yard to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) on 05/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q42 worked to Crewe yesterday with six ex GA Mk3s, 10229, 11078, 11095, 10413, 12021 & 12091 carrying both Eastern Rail Services and Rail Operations Assets Ltd branding, it's reported on WNXX that a few weeks of static tests will be undertaken at Crewe before mainline testing begins, 93001 has now been moved from MBEL to GROG pool

 

[Rail Quest]

5Q42 worked to Crewe yesterday with six ex GA Mk3s, 10229, 11078, 11095, 10413, 12021 & 12091, it's reported on WNXX that a few weeks of static tests will be undertaken at Crewe before mainline testing begins, 93001 has now been moved from MBEL to GROG pool

Awesome thanks for the info!

A move's been added for Monday: Derby to Worksop ran by ROG though no move out of Worksop yet, perhaps this could include a loco to pick up the 93

Realtime Trains | 5E26 0359 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Worksop Down Yard | 08/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5E26 0359 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Worksop Down Yard on 08/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Covshire1]

Awesome thanks for the info!

A move's been added for Monday: Derby to Worksop ran by ROG though no move out of Worksop yet, perhaps this could include a loco to pick up the 93

Realtime Trains | 5E26 0359 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Worksop Down Yard | 08/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 5E26 0359 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Worksop Down Yard on 08/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

6Q42 0647 Worksop Down Yard to Crewe South Yard

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R26846/2024-01-08/detailed

 

[Rick1984]

5Q42 worked to Crewe yesterday with six ex GA Mk3s, 10229, 11078, 11095, 10413, 12021 & 12091 carrying both Eastern Rail Services and Rail Operations Assets Ltd branding, it's reported on WNXX that a few weeks of static tests will be undertaken at Crewe before mainline testing begins, 93001 has now been moved from MBEL to GROG pool

What pulled the mlii carriages, RailAdventure HST?

 

[800001]

What pulled the mlii carriages, RailAdventure HST?

37901

 

[Rick1984]

Chhers

 

[Rail Quest]

93001 has been spotted!

 

[CD101]

37 901 hauling 93 001 arrived at Crewe station approx 10:45 on route to Crewe South Yard.