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Competition heats up between Transdev and Connexions

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Bantamzen

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Why does everyone see Otley to Bradford as on Transdev's radar. Yes they've picked up the Otley minibus tenders, but the only big buses they run into Bradford are well established ones from Keighley.

Because they have also picked up some services in Bradford too, so as their operations grow at each end of the routes it is not unreasonable to imagine that a route like this might be a more and more of a natural fit. For the reasons gone into earlier, the route if ever picked up again needs an operator with sufficient capacity to make it attractive to the passengers lost over a decade, and as such they and First are the only two with such in the area. Connexions don't really have that, and the only other operator with any significant presence in the area is Arriva through it's Flying Tiger airport buses, which is probably not enough to coax them in yet.
 
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Bantamzen

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It is quite amazing - there's a pot of gold just waiting to be taken off by someone and no one wants to know.

Alternatively, it may just be a little more nuanced than all that

Who said anything about a pot of gold? Whether you wish to believe it or not, there is a potential market there. I live along the route and I know that people would use it regularly if it a) ran when they needed it, and not when it was operationally convenient & b) offered more than a minimal capacity because there have been plenty of times when the route was ran at 2-3 times a day where people have watched it fly past because it was full. There has been call after call to have it re-instated properly over the years from various areas along the route, but for whatever the reasons the possible operators have not taken a punt. And before there are any more silly comments on over-expectations, nobody is expecting a 36 / CityZap style premium route, just a viable service with decent capacity that runs reasonably reliably with reasonably well appointed vehicles. You know a bit like the 60 or 662, but maybe only starting out as an hourly service. I'm sure that some of the bigger companies could, if they so wished, be able to re-grow the route without bringing them on the country to their economic knees. After as stated above First dropped the route(s) not because they were loss making, just that they were not making enough (plus some other operational reasons for some routes). And as stated time and again, the traffic grew worse as the bus services fell away, so it is not unreasonable to assume that at least some of those drivers would consider a return to the buses if the right services were available to them.

And here's some shocking news, just because a couple of private operators haven’t gone for it doesn't mean they are right in assessing it as not viable. I know this flies in the face of all that is believed in the 21st Century UK, but sometimes private companies get things wrong!! I'm sorry if this offends or upsets your sensibilities in any way, I'm not sure quite why you are so against the idea of it being properly tried, but people in my area often lament the loss of so many services which they used on a regular basis.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Who said anything about a pot of gold? Whether you wish to believe it or not, there is a potential market there. I live along the route and I know that people would use it regularly if it a) ran when they needed it, and not when it was operationally convenient & b) offered more than a minimal capacity because there have been plenty of times when the route was ran at 2-3 times a day where people have watched it fly past because it was full. There has been call after call to have it re-instated properly over the years from various areas along the route, but for whatever the reasons the possible operators have not taken a punt. And before there are any more silly comments on over-expectations, nobody is expecting a 36 / CityZap style premium route, just a viable service with decent capacity that runs reasonably reliably with reasonably well appointed vehicles. You know a bit like the 60 or 662, but maybe only starting out as an hourly service. I'm sure that some of the bigger companies could, if they so wished, be able to re-grow the route without bringing them on the country to their economic knees. After as stated above First dropped the route(s) not because they were loss making, just that they were not making enough (plus some other operational reasons for some routes). And as stated time and again, the traffic grew worse as the bus services fell away, so it is not unreasonable to assume that at least some of those drivers would consider a return to the buses if the right services were available to them.

And here's some shocking news, just because a couple of private operators haven’t gone for it doesn't mean they are right in assessing it as not viable. I know this flies in the face of all that is believed in the 21st Century UK, but sometimes private companies get things wrong!! I'm sorry if this offends or upsets your sensibilities in any way, I'm not sure quite why you are so against the idea of it being properly tried, but people in my area often lament the loss of so many services which they used on a regular basis.

Please don't misrepresent me - my pot of gold reference is whether there is a viable, commercial opportunity there. First didn't feel there was and, let everyone be clear, no-one knows if it was making any money at all let alone the famed 8%. That is conjecture.

More importantly, TLC tried it but couldn't make it pay - get the message about the standard of fleet/marketing etc. However, there are two other parties who are known for "having a punt" and they've not felt done so. Why, if there is money to be made? This apparent latent demand - people appealing for its return. Why haven't these firms elected to have a go?

Your view is that those former passengers have deserted the 653, hacked off with older vehicles etc provided by First. Some will have done so and I don't deny - reliability is the single biggest concern for travellers. However, the reality is that the improvement in the rail service is much more of a factor and it is that which has decimated the bus service from Guiseley to Bradford. It is a public transport success story so I'm not being negative.

If you want shocking news - here it is. Congestion on key routes into major cities is common across the country, not just where First happen to operate/did operate. Car ownership has continued to grow above the level of population growth. Without good bus priority, buses will spend time stuck in the same traffic, albeit slowed by stopping for passengers.

I'd love to see more people on public transport and more investment. However, we've seen the impact in the Borders. That was a half hourly service and was operated by modern vehicles etc. The First Borders staff are also pretty diligent - well presented vehicles with decent drivers. Put on the rail service - loadings reduce markedly as those who suddenly have a reliable train service with attendant time benefits have switched. Does this mean that the traffic on the A7 into Edinburgh has suddenly melted away.... no. As I said, some won't because they "don't do public transport" and believe me, there are plenty of non middle class people who think that way. Some prefer to be in their own space with their own music, smoking out the window, or whatever.

However, and this is what is perhaps even more pertinent, is that many people don't live in the centre of Otley (will they get a bus in and change?) or don't work directly on the route (like the 1500 people who work at Morrisons HQ). There are a whole range of different origin and destination points and that is more diverse than ever. In fact, a car is an enabler to achieve this, permitting journeys that could not be made by public transport.

Now, is there a demand for a direct bus from Otley to Bradford? Maybe there is. However, is it viable? Well, judging by two operators who didn't make it work, and two who could enter the fray but have elected not to, then clearly many people are decided that it isn't.

Metro could fund a service but save one journey, they don't. I'm not against a service - it's not a personal thing - but it's more an exploration as to why these operators are seeking to ignore a viable, money making opportunity that you believe exists.
 

Bantamzen

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Please don't misrepresent me - my pot of gold reference is whether there is a viable, commercial opportunity there. First didn't feel there was and, let everyone be clear, no-one knows if it was making any money at all let alone the famed 8%. That is conjecture.

More importantly, TLC tried it but couldn't make it pay - get the message about the standard of fleet/marketing etc. However, there are two other parties who are known for "having a punt" and they've not felt done so. Why, if there is money to be made? This apparent latent demand - people appealing for its return. Why haven't these firms elected to have a go?

I don't know why another operator has not had a go, possibly because of the perception that the 653 (amongst the others along similar routes) was no longer viable. But as has been stated previously, First seemingly & willingly ran these services into the ground, using the oldest and least reliable vehicles, regularly cancelling services (presumably be cause of aforementioned vehicles) because (as it appears) these routes were not as profitable as they would like. But they certainly weren't deserted routes at the beginning of the end, a lot of people used them and a lot of people still would.

Your view is that those former passengers have deserted the 653, hacked off with older vehicles etc provided by First. Some will have done so and I don't deny - reliability is the single biggest concern for travellers. However, the reality is that the improvement in the rail service is much more of a factor and it is that which has decimated the bus service from Guiseley to Bradford. It is a public transport success story so I'm not being negative.

As I have agreed, the trains will have had some impact, but remember the 333s and current scheduling have been around long before First started to run their services down. And also remember that not everyone on the routes are close enough to one of the stations to consider them a viable daily option. The Wharfe & Aire services have been a success story, almost too successful hence Arriva's plans to add capacity with the arrival of the 331s. However the rail service does not necessarily meet the transport requirements of all people along its route and beyond. Many of the stations have restricted car parking capacity, & some are located some distance from large parts of the local population and so many people might seek an alternative if there were one.

If you want shocking news - here it is. Congestion on key routes into major cities is common across the country, not just where First happen to operate/did operate. Car ownership has continued to grow above the level of population growth. Without good bus priority, buses will spend time stuck in the same traffic, albeit slowed by stopping for passengers.

I'd love to see more people on public transport and more investment. However, we've seen the impact in the Borders. That was a half hourly service and was operated by modern vehicles etc. The First Borders staff are also pretty diligent - well presented vehicles with decent drivers. Put on the rail service - loadings reduce markedly as those who suddenly have a reliable train service with attendant time benefits have switched. Does this mean that the traffic on the A7 into Edinburgh has suddenly melted away.... no. As I said, some won't because they "don't do public transport" and believe me, there are plenty of non middle class people who think that way. Some prefer to be in their own space with their own music, smoking out the window, or whatever.

However, and this is what is perhaps even more pertinent, is that many people don't live in the centre of Otley (will they get a bus in and change?) or don't work directly on the route (like the 1500 people who work at Morrisons HQ). There are a whole range of different origin and destination points and that is more diverse than ever. In fact, a car is an enabler to achieve this, permitting journeys that could not be made by public transport.

Yet more shocking news is that some of the roads along the routes concerned count as some of the country's worst congestion hot spots, and here's a new factor, car ownership is actually on the decline amongst the younger generations who are finding the cost (especially with insurance prices) more and more prohibitive. So even as you imagine the market for buses in shrinking, it may actually be going in reverse for some generations. A car can only be an enabler where cost and convenience make it so. The area's, and indeed many other areas congestion issues are making the car a less viable form of commuting transport all the time. And we see companies like TransDev trying to tap in this all the time, for example things like the CityZaps are coming about because the commute along those routes is becoming worse.

Now, is there a demand for a direct bus from Otley to Bradford? Maybe there is. However, is it viable? Well, judging by two operators who didn't make it work, and two who could enter the fray but have elected not to, then clearly many people are decided that it isn't.

Well from being here on the ground I am convinced there is demand, quite why operators other than TLC have ignored is I assume based on either perceptional and/or operational reasons. I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Others have also said they see potential demand, and there has been a seemingly endless stream of protests through various local politicians ever since the routes were dropped by First.

Metro could fund a service but save one journey, they don't. I'm not against a service - it's not a personal thing - but it's more an exploration as to why these operators are seeking to ignore a viable, money making opportunity that you believe exists.

Metro amongst other PTEs are seeing their budgets slashed, so subsiding and/or promoting new services is all but a non-starter save for the highest profile routes. And sometimes even they don't get the publicity they warrant, you are very aware of this from the new CityZap thread. When TLC went to an hourly service there was very little publicity, even many stops along the route displayed the old irregular timetables for some time afterwards. Couple this with the inability to attract First / TransDev daily & season ticket holders without a surcharge along large sections of the route, meant they were probably on a hiding to nothing from the start. So with hindsight they were probably not the best operator. However their experience coupled with First's neglect might not be the best way to measure demand, once upon a time the PTE would be able to consult & try to tempt a new operator in, but these days the needs of the passengers seemingly come second to those of the operators, and sometimes as Otley / Harrogate are seeing their whims and beefs with other companies, in which case everyone loses. Which in the end was my point in the first place.
 

Tetchytyke

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It's certainly interesting how these routes change. Under Yorkshire Rider/First the 500 from Keighley to Hebden Bridge was a basket case with a couple of buses a day, Transdev have a go at it and suddenly it needs to be hourly with new buses.

Meanwhile the 502 Halifax-Keighley went the other way, going from thriving and hourly to a skeleton service with a TJ Walsh minibus (except on Sundays, bizarrely, when first ran a regular service), then nothing.

I do wonder why that the big companies don't want to try Bradford-Shipley-Otley. Same with Halifax-Keighley. I can't believe there isn't a market. I suspect the issue is First don't want to know and Transdev won't make it work commercially as it's a) isolated from their main network and b) in the middle of First territory.
 

Andyh82

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The 500 helped by Transdev replacing their 663 bus, so it resulted in an hourly service from the same one bus resource.

That's the key with these sorts of services, if it is part of the main service at both ends, the middle can survive. That'll be why the 184 has worked as it provides the main local service on both sides not just the link over the Pennines.
 

SCH117X

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It might just be me, but I fail to see the connection. Could you explain please?
Sam
Suspect it was sarcasm - tying with an American themed restaurant, would be even better if it was a French restaurant. One thing that has not been commented on with respect to the increasingly off thread issue of services between Otley/Guiseley and Bradford is the erratic nature of tail backs from the lights at Baildon Junction. How exactly would you timetable a service that was reliable and competed effectively against the train.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It's certainly interesting how these routes change. Under Yorkshire Rider/First the 500 from Keighley to Hebden Bridge was a basket case with a couple of buses a day, Transdev have a go at it and suddenly it needs to be hourly with new buses.

Meanwhile the 502 Halifax-Keighley went the other way, going from thriving and hourly to a skeleton service with a TJ Walsh minibus (except on Sundays, bizarrely, when first ran a regular service), then nothing.

I do wonder why that the big companies don't want to try Bradford-Shipley-Otley. Same with Halifax-Keighley. I can't believe there isn't a market. I suspect the issue is First don't want to know and Transdev won't make it work commercially as it's a) isolated from their main network and b) in the middle of First territory.

In terms of Halifax to Keighley, part of the problem is that you have essentially two well patronised ends of the route but it's that bit in the middle that is thin on the ground. There is that question of the route that has that middle bit that is not well populated but is there enough end to end traffic. Without much in the way of end to end traffic, it didn't pay that well? Only did a few times and can't say it was overly busy but that may be unrepresentative.

Going back to Bradford to Otley, what can you say? Transdev have certainly never been afraid to have a punt. They aren't adverse to operating away from their patch even with some cute interworking - they could do it off the 62 as has been mentioned. As the route has now gone (as has much of that corridor), the competitive impact (and upsetting First) isn't that much of an issue. Sometimes, a service does have a shelf life especially when some external happens (like a massively improved rail line with new stations).

I guess the bigger question isn't to go on about First and their imperfections but more to question why two entrepreneurial firms aren't bothered about this apparent moneyspinner. Perhaps someone can tweet Alex Hornby*/Craig Temple* (* delete as appropriate) to ask why they're prepared to take on Ripon locals or CityZap Manchester but not this?
 

theblackwatch

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Suspect it was sarcasm - tying with an American themed restaurant, would be even better if it was a French restaurant.

No sarcasm actually! It looks like there could be some link between Connexions and/or A&A Travel and the new owners of the Damn Yankee...
 

SCH117X

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No sarcasm actually! It looks like there could be some link between Connexions and/or A&A Travel and the new owners of the Damn Yankee...
A great tie in that will be - use our buses when you eat at the Damn Yankee (oh just make sure that's before 7pm and not on a Sunday)
 

Bantamzen

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In terms of Halifax to Keighley, part of the problem is that you have essentially two well patronised ends of the route but it's that bit in the middle that is thin on the ground. There is that question of the route that has that middle bit that is not well populated but is there enough end to end traffic. Without much in the way of end to end traffic, it didn't pay that well? Only did a few times and can't say it was overly busy but that may be unrepresentative.

Going back to Bradford to Otley, what can you say? Transdev have certainly never been afraid to have a punt. They aren't adverse to operating away from their patch even with some cute interworking - they could do it off the 62 as has been mentioned. As the route has now gone (as has much of that corridor), the competitive impact (and upsetting First) isn't that much of an issue. Sometimes, a service does have a shelf life especially when some external happens (like a massively improved rail line with new stations).

I guess the bigger question isn't to go on about First and their imperfections but more to question why two entrepreneurial firms aren't bothered about this apparent moneyspinner. Perhaps someone can tweet Alex Hornby*/Craig Temple* (* delete as appropriate) to ask why they're prepared to take on Ripon locals or CityZap Manchester but not this?

You mean the MDs of the two companies currently engaged in a war over a local service like the 965? You'll forgive me for not necessarily trusting the judgement of either of those two at this point in time. The whole point of me bringing up the old 653 and other abandoned First routes was to highlight the sheer stupidity and pointlessness of two companies warring over a handful of routes, some of which like the 965 are not exactly a pot of gold themselves (which apparently I and others think the 653 is), when there are potentially some new possibilities if either company could desist in their spat. Don’t get me wrong, such a route would be difficult to re-grow and would need more than a handful of months that TLC had. Congestion is a growing issue, but if over a period of 12-18 months a company *like* TransDev offered a regular service, with decent ticketing options (the scheme they have on the 662 could easily be trialled on it for example) would, in my humble and local opinion prove to be a success. Arriva through their "budget" brand Flying Tiger (now noticeably detached from the rest of Yorkshire Tiger) have slowly grown the 737/747, to a point where they feel comfortable in investing in new Enviro 200MMCs to all but entirely operate the routes which include the Bradford-Gusieley portion of the 737. So if Arriva can find a growing niche, then there really isn't any reason for someone else to give it a punt.

We are never going to agree on demand levels, all I can say is that I have been involved in meetings and local consultations on transport in the area, and the Bradford-Shipley-Guiseley-Otley (and beyond) corridor is a regular point of discussion, with a lot of people wanting its return (and not just pensioners with passes). That only TLC has stepped up to try is still something that perplexes many, whenever organisations like Metro, councillors, even MPs raise the issue there never seems to be a satisfactory response save some vague statements about operational issues. So it is what it is, and is a perfect demonstration of the growing disconnect between operators and the needs of the passengers. Still we can always console ourselves with the though that should we ever need to travel between Leeds and Manchester, there's a shiny new service with a handful of people on, sitting in exactly the same type of congestion that other "unviable" routes enjoy, whilst thousands of seats per hour pass by on the two lines that mirror the new CityZap service. Hurrah for privatisation and deregulation!!
 

lejog

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The 500 helped by Transdev replacing their 663 bus, so it resulted in an hourly service from the same one bus resource.

That's the key with these sorts of services, if it is part of the main service at both ends, the middle can survive. That'll be why the 184 has worked as it provides the main local service on both sides not just the link over the Pennines.

The 500 (now B3) received a "substantial" subsidy from Metro when Transdev took over the route. The continuing existence of the subsidy was restated by WYMetro a few years ago when First diverted the Halifax-Old Town bus to Todmorden and WYMetro rerouted the local Old Town buses, leaving the 500 as the bus serving the Keighley Rd in Hebden Bridge.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Let me be absolutely crystal clear for the avoidance of doubt:

I have already said that the petty squabble on the 965 is like two bald men arguing over a comb. It is a pathetic instance that is based on oneupmanship and personalities rather than any real commercial sense. Not being partisan or anything on that!

As for CityZap, that is a commercial punt and Transdev will either prosper or founder. They've done so on the initial one and prospered but as is the case, there are no guarantees and the whole industry has a record of modest successes and outright failures.

However, if you want to know why either of Conn or Transdev do not wish to capitalise on an apparently viable commercial opportunity, I don't know who else you might ask? Ask them? Or ask Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger why they don't fancy it? I'm not asking you to "trust their judgement" - I'm saying for you to actually ask them! That said, surely those local groups with whom you've been involved have asked them and if they stated "operational issues" - what are they? What have they done to overcome these obstacles? Surely they didn't merely let them off the hook with vanilla statements and blandishments?

All I've done is venture why they may not wish to do so. There is a lot of talk on how much First was making on this profitable corridor that they vacated - again, how do any of us know? As I've said before, the Guiseley to Bradford corridor has collapsed from what it was - why is that? What has happened? Perhaps the electrification and upgrading of the rail line is just a mere coincidence - somehow, I doubt it.

Now, maybe there is a viable demand there? Well, the operators don't think so and, were it to be so strong yet not commercial, you would think that Metro would support at the expense of something else.
 

Bantamzen

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Let me be absolutely crystal clear for the avoidance of doubt:

I have already said that the petty squabble on the 965 is like two bald men arguing over a comb. It is a pathetic instance that is based on oneupmanship and personalities rather than any real commercial sense. Not being partisan or anything on that!

As for CityZap, that is a commercial punt and Transdev will either prosper or founder. They've done so on the initial one and prospered but as is the case, there are no guarantees and the whole industry has a record of modest successes and outright failures.

However, if you want to know why either of Conn or Transdev do not wish to capitalise on an apparently viable commercial opportunity, I don't know who else you might ask? Ask them? Or ask Arriva/Yorkshire Tiger why they don't fancy it? I'm not asking you to "trust their judgement" - I'm saying for you to actually ask them! That said, surely those local groups with whom you've been involved have asked them and if they stated "operational issues" - what are they? What have they done to overcome these obstacles? Surely they didn't merely let them off the hook with vanilla statements and blandishments?

All I've done is venture why they may not wish to do so. There is a lot of talk on how much First was making on this profitable corridor that they vacated - again, how do any of us know? As I've said before, the Guiseley to Bradford corridor has collapsed from what it was - why is that? What has happened? Perhaps the electrification and upgrading of the rail line is just a mere coincidence - somehow, I doubt it.

Now, maybe there is a viable demand there? Well, the operators don't think so and, were it to be so strong yet not commercial, you would think that Metro would support at the expense of something else.

They (and by they I mean the various operators) have been asked numerous times over the years. But it seems like you they don't believe there is sufficient market, even though from what anyone can see they have not actually bothered to research much beyond looking at what First did. Maybe they have, maybe they used some research that didn't involve the PTE, passengers lost when First vacated, or potential new passengers. But from a public perspective they seem to have done exactly what you are doing, simply dismissing it without too much thought. If they would rather squabble over minor routes to make a point, or run sexy services that have severe competition from rail or even their other operations then that's up to them. But it is amazing how they are lauded over (by some) for running something like Leeds-York (and working close to Leeds bus station I seriously cannot believe this can be fully viable, rarely do they leave or arrive heavily loaded from what I can see, unless they are picking up lots of extra passengers en route), or Leeds-Manchester (again how can they hope to make this viable when rail capacity is going to be significantly increased in the next 2 years, let alone operate on time at any time on the M62). But dare mention a route controversially dropped by First, and you are demanding the Earth and the Sky.....

Frankly I'm starting to wish I hadn't bothered with this entire subject, I only brought up the suggestion that TransDev try out a 653-style route because of their growing operations at either end combined with the supressed demand (that seemingly doesn't exist despite so many calls for it being ignored) it would seem to some as a natural fit. But perhaps not, and so a part of the area that has seen drastic route cuts over the last decade, many of which have not been picked up by rail, continues to have to put up with more and more congestion. Once upon a time the PTE might have been in a position to work towards a solution, but failing budgets rule this out these days. This is the sorry state of public transport these days, run more and more like a retail operation than a public financially backed part of the infrastructure. I'm sure ove the years we'll see more of the CityZap routes as they play about with routes in the hope of hitting a goldmine, and equally I'm sure many of these will fall by the wayside. Who knows, maybe eventually they'll get bored and move into the Coffee shop market and stuff buses, with all their demanding passengers?

Oh well, c'est la vie. I will sit back and watch the growing spat on the 965 until one or both fall off the route, whilst watching the A6038 traffic jams get longer and longer each year, or sit up at the Malt in Baildon to see more and more rat runners trying to avoid the same, safe in the knowledge that none of them are travelling from the Wharfe/Otley area or beyond, and who absolutely never would be seen dead on a bus route along the same. Because the bus operators never make mistakes, never ignore potential new routes, and understand the flows of commuters better than they themselves. The market is always right after all??!!??
 

TheGrandWazoo

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"They (and by they I mean the various operators) have been asked numerous times over the years. But it seems like you they don't believe there is sufficient market, even though from what anyone can see they have not actually bothered to research much beyond looking at what First did. Maybe they have, maybe they used some research that didn't involve the PTE, passengers lost when First vacated, or potential new passengers. But from a public perspective they seem to have done exactly what you are doing, simply dismissing it without too much thought. "

Be under no illusion - I have not dismissed anything. I have suggested the reasons why the operators have done what they have - DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Note: I have said that I know there is heavy congestion on that route. I have not doubted you are earnest in your beliefs. Indeed, I've had said that there may well be a market there though whether it is profitable, I don't know (and neither do you).

Because the bus operators never make mistakes, never ignore potential new routes, and understand the flows of commuters better than they themselves. The market is always right after all??!!??

Also, I have said that the 965 squabble is pathetic and I don't dispute that private bus operators don't make mistakes - however, that is equally applicable to any facet of life including public organisations.

What you haven't said is WHY three large operators who could operate it, don't. That was what I was asking - not the sun and sky.
 

Bantamzen

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Be under no illusion - I have not dismissed anything. I have suggested the reasons why the operators have done what they have - DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Note: I have said that I know there is heavy congestion on that route. I have not doubted you are earnest in your beliefs. Indeed, I've had said that there may well be a market there though whether it is profitable, I don't know (and neither do you).

But you have done just exactly that, dismissing, or at least ignoring anything I have said about people lobbying for the service. Make no mistake, this has been rumbling on since the back end of last decade and a lot of people have been unhappy about it ever since, from commuters, shoppers and even business owners. Representation has been made time and again, but it seems that First's "commercially unviable" (I believe that was their favourite phrase for killing off popular services at the time) excuse has stood the test of time with little attempt to look any further.

I think we are now in danger of going around in ever decreasing circles. You don’t believe there is any kind of profit to be made, I think you are wrong. We are not going to agree on this any time so I propose we leave it at that.
 

theblackwatch

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They (and by they I mean the various operators) have been asked numerous times over the years. But it seems like you they don't believe there is sufficient market, even though from what anyone can see they have not actually bothered to research much beyond looking at what First did.

It seems more like you're unwilling/unable to accept their belief that there isn't a market. I am sure if they thought they could make a nice profit, taking into account all the costs, one of the bus operators would probably do it. Perhaps, if you're so confident, you and all the others who would use the service, could crowdfund it using the Vamooz concept? If your expectations on usage are correct, there'll be no risk to your cash!
 

Bantamzen

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It seems more like you're unwilling/unable to accept their belief that there isn't a market. I am sure if they thought they could make a nice profit, taking into account all the costs, one of the bus operators would probably do it. Perhaps, if you're so confident, you and all the others who would use the service, could crowdfund it using the Vamooz concept? If your expectations on usage are correct, there'll be no risk to your cash!

Not at all, I see the market drive by, I talk to the market, I've seen the weight of demand from various areas along the route, I've talked to councillors, MPs, TPE execs about it and the all agree their is real potential. So you don't have to take my word for it, not of course that you will.

The crowdfunder scheme is quaint, but we had a much better system. It was called a well funded PTE. And that TransDev scheme is not exactly the place to be looking for a commercial operation.

And lack of supply does not necessarily denote lack of demand. Look at Bradford, for over a decade the centre was decimated and when plans finally fell into place for the new Broadway centre plenty of people declared it a waste of money because there was no market. But there was and all of a sudden a retail & leisure market is growing around it.
 

Ginga

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132
I'm I going mad or are Harrogate bus company getting rid of the V70 already?
 

Andyh82

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It might help if you actually told us where you've seen that or who told you
 

SCH117X

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PB0001746/109 Cancelled
HARROGATE & DISTRICT TRAVEL LTD
Route: Bramham to St Aidens School
Service number: V70
Service type: School or Works
Effective date: 02 Jan 2018

Of course it might not mean the service is cancelled cancelled as their may be a replacement VOSA entry forthcomng
 

Stan Drews

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5 Jun 2013
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PB0001746/109 Cancelled
HARROGATE & DISTRICT TRAVEL LTD
Route: Bramham to St Aidens School
Service number: V70
Service type: School or Works
Effective date: 02 Jan 2018

Of course it might not mean the service is cancelled cancelled as their may be a replacement VOSA entry forthcomng

Presumably not enough people signed up for it through the VAMOOZ app?
 

96tommy

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18 May 2010
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I didn't know many people went to St Aidens in Bramham. A lot of my friends in Bramham (onyl down the road from where I was born) went to Boston Spa, Wetherby or Tad Grammar
 

theblackwatch

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I didn't know many people went to St Aidens in Bramham. A lot of my friends in Bramham (onyl down the road from where I was born) went to Boston Spa, Wetherby or Tad Grammar

I didn't go to St Aidans but went to St John Fishers (which the bus also serves) in the 80s, and there were plenty of kids from what I'd describe as the Wetherby/Boston Spa/Tadcaster triangle who went there - probably 90% of St Josephs primary school at Wetherby moved up to Fishers when they went to secondary school. However, I don't think there's demand for so many buses - between Wetherby and Walton this morning, in the space of a minute, I passed 3 deckers - the aforementioned V70, the Connexions X70 service bus followed by Connexions X72 school run to Fishers/Aidans.
 

96tommy

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London
I didn't go to St Aidans but went to St John Fishers (which the bus also serves) in the 80s, and there were plenty of kids from what I'd describe as the Wetherby/Boston Spa/Tadcaster triangle who went there - probably 90% of St Josephs primary school at Wetherby moved up to Fishers when they went to secondary school. However, I don't think there's demand for so many buses - between Wetherby and Walton this morning, in the space of a minute, I passed 3 deckers - the aforementioned V70, the Connexions X70 service bus followed by Connexions X72 school run to Fishers/Aidans.

Aah ok. I'm from Tadcaster but didn't realise it served Fishers. From primary schools here I would say from those who didn't go tonTad Grammar it was split 50/50 between All Saints in York and John Fishers. I wonder if there's a Vamooz market if it started from Tadcaster and not Bramham
 

theblackwatch

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Messages
10,714
Aah ok. I'm from Tadcaster but didn't realise it served Fishers. From primary schools here I would say from those who didn't go tonTad Grammar it was split 50/50 between All Saints in York and John Fishers. I wonder if there's a Vamooz market if it started from Tadcaster and not Bramham

Bramham is also served by the Connexions X71 (which starts back at Aberford) and A&A already run a school service between Tadcaster and Fishers/Aidans - perhaps the Vamooz service would have started there had it been Connexions rather than A&A! :lol:

Judging by what I pass, there must be at least 10 school buses run from various points through Wetherby to schools in Harrogate each day.
 

Deerfold

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26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,571
Location
Yorkshire
The 500 (now B3) received a "substantial" subsidy from Metro when Transdev took over the route. The continuing existence of the subsidy was restated by WYMetro a few years ago when First diverted the Halifax-Old Town bus to Todmorden and WYMetro rerouted the local Old Town buses, leaving the 500 as the bus serving the Keighley Rd in Hebden Bridge.

The 500 was subsidised from deregulation with Keighley's 1 and Firsts 2-3 buses on certain days of the week. When Metro tendered it as an hourly daily service, dropping the Hebden Bridge to Todmorden section, Keighley won easily as they could simply extend their largely commercial 663, requiring only 1 additional bus whereas First would need 2 to run it.

The B3 is no longer noted as receiving a subsidy.

http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFile...ravel/maps_and_guides/Bradford_Freq_Panel.pdf
 
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