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Complex Penalty Fare

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maniacmartin

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I would advise you to read section 19 of the NRCoC yourself - it's quite short and concise.

  • It would not be the case that both tickets are zonal, so 19(a) would not apply.
  • If the train called at the stations where the they switch to and from the Travelcard then that would be fine. For a zone1-2 Travelcard though, this map shows East Croydon in zone 5, so they'd need more than just zones 1-2 on their Travelcard. To switch at East Croydon would need a zone1-5 travelcard at least
  • Under 19(c) they could stay on a train that doesn't call at the stations where they switch tickets, but they'd need a season ticket. This would have to be a Travelcard with validity for a week or longer, not merely a day travelcard.
 
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sarahj

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The T/C is a one day version. I've reminderd the buyer of their need to change onto a train that goes via clapham junction and stops there. But could they change at ECR onto a train that stop s at new cross gate and go onto london bridge that way, or does the ticket mean they have to go via Clapham J as its to a destination that is on SWT and can be reached from clapham.

So if the buyer bought a season they could go to london bridge, but would the season have to be either the SDR coverted, or the 2 zone TC converted, or both?
SJ
 
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RJ

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With reference to this, i never knew this opt out for stopping on a season, so I can see why the season ticket valid to West hampstead, and then a ticket onwards is valid wihout the train stopping is valid.

However, as a person who sells tickets I have a question who these expoliters of loopholes might know the answer to.

A person buys a SDR to a desintation on SWT on a southern train. The ticket is valid not london. They then buy a 2 zone travel card. Would this person have to be on a train (or change to a train at ECR) that stops at Clapham junction, or could they travel into say london bridge, being that the train they are on runs non stop from east croydon to london bridge. (the ticket is being bought by on the train before haywards heath) I dont want to mention the distination, but would be happy to talk to someone like RJ in pm. I want to give the correct advice on this.

SJ

Hi,

The stipulations are laid out in Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, specifically 19c. Essentially, the combination of tickets need to cover the entire length of the journey. Do feel free to PM me with more details if needs be.

If someone has a ticket from say, Brighton to Wimbledon routed Not Via London, this could be combined with a Season Zone 1-2 Travelcard and they could travel into Victoria on a train that passes through, but does not stop at Clapham Junction.

However, they can't travel into London Bridge via Honor Oak Park, because that Brighton to Wimbledon ticket doesn't have any validity between at least Sydenham and Honor Oak Park. This section needs to be covered in order to validate the combination.
 
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telstarbox

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While I'm glad that RJ is getting less hassle, it seems wrong that this is because the TMs have been told to look out for him and ignore his tickets, rather than because they have been trained enough to be able to see that his tickets are in fact valid.

I was going to make the same point.
 

RJ

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Don't worry - I'm working on it. Having observed their strategy, I have deduced that the best method is to take baby steps.
 
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barrykas

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It occurs to me that RJ could possibly make a small fortune by offering his services to TOCs to give their frontline staff retail training...
 

yorkie

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While I'm glad that RJ is getting less hassle, it seems wrong that this is because the TMs have been told to look out for him and ignore his tickets, rather than because they have been trained enough to be able to see that his tickets are in fact valid.
There is NO CHANCE of adequate training being provided. Not a hope. No way will they do that!

Tell you what, try contacting customer services and ask some questions such as:

  • Do you charge Penalty Fares when passengers are travelling on a time restricted ticket at an invalid time?
    (Answer: No. But last I heard, they think they can)
  • If I buy a Super Off Peak ticket from Exeter to Bedford, can I travel from London to Bedford at any time?
    (Answer: Yes. But last I heard, they hadn't heard of the Network Area Rule, despite it appearing in the ticket restriction text)
  • If I hold a 7 Day Travelcard on Oyster, can I use this in conjunction with a Bedford to Elstree & Borehamwood Off Peak Day Return, and take a non-stop EMT service? Can I take any train in the evening with this combination?
    (Answer: Yes and Yes but I do not think they will know about Condition 19 and I don't think they will bother to look up the restriction code either!)


Give it a try and see how long it takes to feel like you may as well be banging your head against a brick wall.;)

They are actually quite simple questions, that I've just randomly come up with. They won't know the answers, at least not consistently, I am pretty sure!

It occurs to me that RJ could possibly make a small fortune by offering his services to TOCs to give their frontline staff retail training...

Who would pay for the huge loss in revenue when passengers are sold the CORRECT tickets instead of more expensive tickets?

There is no way EMT will do this, as I believe it is part of their business case to include the sales of tickets that have additional validity that people do not need.

If they sold the right tickets, that would result in less dividends for fat cat shareholders. NO WAY will that happen! Not unless an effective regulator came along and forced them to. But ther's no sign of that happening!!

Sheffield station alone is responsible for many refusals to sell tickets people ask for, claiming they need to buy more expensive tickets. I bet 90% of the general public just pay the extra. I know about half a dozen people who will insist on being sold the right ticket but they're the exception.

They must make £millions on people paying more than they need.

For example "Can I have a return to Chesterfield and a Derbyshire Wayfarer?"
"No, the Wayfarer isn't valid yet"
"But the train calls at Chesterfield until after 9am"
"Well I am not selling you that ticket until 9am"
(and so on - and yes, we know to quote the Retail Standards Guide and mention impartial retailing and insist on speaking to a manager but most people will simply cough up the extra!!!)
 

island

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[*]If I buy a Super Off Peak ticket from Exeter to Bedford, can I travel from London to Bedford at any time?
(Answer: Yes. But last I heard, they hadn't heard of the Network Area Rule, despite it appearing in the ticket restriction text)

That answer is only correct for a ticket routed +VIA TAUNTON.
 

richw

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Who would pay for the huge loss in revenue when passengers are sold the CORRECT tickets instead of more expensive tickets?

There is no way EMT will do this, as I believe it is part of their business case to include the sales of tickets that have additional validity that people do not need.​


Think the whole PPI miss-selling scandal. One can predict if they have attitudes like this it wont be long before we hear of Train ticket miss-selling being the next big thing!​
 

sheff1

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Think the whole PPI miss-selling scandal. One can predict if they have attitudes like this it wont be long before we hear of Train ticket miss-selling being the next big thing!

If Passenger Focus and/or the Rail Regulator had anything about them I strongly believe we would be there already. Unfortunately, in my experience, neither organisation have the the inclination to take the approriate actions.

After my mis-selling complaint against Virgin hit a brick wall (even though the Regulator accepted that my case was good) I did not bother to try again with EMT. On a personal level I can now avoid the attempts at mis-selling by buying on line or at a location other than Sheffield station.
 
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richw

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If Passenger Focus and/or the Rail Regulator had anything about them I strongly believe we would be there already. Unfortunately, in my experience, neither organisation have the the inclination to take the approriate actions.

I really hope RJ gets somewhere with all this. After my mis-selling complaint against Virgin hit a brick wall (even though the Regulator agreed that my case was good) I did not bother to try again with EMT.

It would rely on people having retained their train tickets and receipts etc, but I see it coming in the future.
 

bnm

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If I buy a Super Off Peak ticket from Exeter to Bedford, can I travel from London to Bedford at any time?
(Answer: Yes. But last I heard, they hadn't heard of the Network Area Rule, despite it appearing in the ticket restriction text)


Both Bedford and the two major stations in Exeter are in the Network Area though, so the answer would surely be no. Even From Exeter St Davids via Taunton the journey still starts at a station in the Network Area.

Did you mean Exeter St Thomas or rather chose a poor example?​
 

yorkie

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As Island says, providing the ticket was routed via Taunton, then that would be fine, because the rule applies "for journeys commencing OUTSIDE the Network Area", and the part of the journey from Exeter to Bedwyn is outside the Network Area
 

bnm

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As Island says, providing the ticket was routed via Taunton, then that would be fine, because the rule applies "for journeys commencing OUTSIDE the Network Area", and the part of the journey from Exeter to Bedwyn is outside the Network Area

But what about the part of the text 'unless shown otherwise'?

Off-Peak tickets issued for journeys commencing outside the Network Area for travel via London, take the restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise on the following pages, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station and return.

Exeter St Davids to Bedford takes restriction code 9I/9J for journeys via St Pancras in addition to either LC or XC for (Super) Off Peak journeys.

Is that not as 'shown otherwise'?
 
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AlterEgo

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It occurs to me that RJ could possibly make a small fortune by offering his services to TOCs to give their frontline staff retail training...

The problem is actually an attitude one rather than a knowledge one.

I am reasonably conversant with fares, but some of the combinations RJ travels do not initially appear valid to me (reference a journey into East Anglia using a loophole using RG Map WA). They do of course turn out to be compliant with the NRCOC after sufficient research, which takes maybe a couple of minutes.

However, the proper action is always to check thoroughly - the tools are there to do the job correctly. It is simply a case of utilising them.
 

RJ

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I travelled to Merseyland yesterday as I wanted to see some of these places I have been buying tickets to/from. Went up to Sheffield, across to Manchester, then Bolton. The Pacer to Southport was interesting, sitting above the bogieless wheel on the jointed track west of Parbold at 60mph was entertaining. The "M To Go" shop/ticket office at Southport was different from ticket offices I'm used to, as was the units which had no open/close door buttons. I only had a ticket to get to Hightown, so bought another ticket from Hightown to get me back down south, with an RTV. I then went down through these dinky sounding shacks, Blundellsands & Crosby, Seaforth & Litherland, Bank Hall, Rice Lane and other places featured on the tickets I buy. Returned east via Kirkdale and Upholland, then back from whence I came. As it was only possible to get as far south as Leicester, I decided to break my journey overnight on the outward portion of this SVR from Hightown.

So this evening, I travelled on EMT with the now apparently out of date ticket. I recommenced my journey after 7pm. There was no ticket check on the train, but the gateline assistant at St Pancras took exception to the ticket. She then summoned a member of revenue protection staff, which happened to be the RPO who issued me with the Penalty Fare :p. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the gateline assistant was promptly told to open the gate and let me through without further delay.

I then went across to Euston and my ticket was inspected, but accepted by the barrier staff. My journey came to an end at Watford Junction, by which time the barrier staff had gone home.

In the meantime, I have prepared a response to EMT's request for a figure for which I feel I should be compensated by. I'll send it by Monday morning and will be looking forward to their response.

I'll be back north on Monday, 11:25 from St Pancras so I'll be looking forward to another peaceful journey :).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The problem is actually an attitude one rather than a knowledge one.

I am reasonably conversant with fares, but some of the combinations RJ travels do not initially appear valid to me (reference a journey into East Anglia using a loophole using RG Map WA). They do of course turn out to be compliant with the NRCOC after sufficient research, which takes maybe a couple of minutes.

However, the proper action is always to check thoroughly - the tools are there to do the job correctly. It is simply a case of utilising them.

I agree with you to some extent. The problem isn't just lack of knowledge - it's the lack of willingness of staff to either look things up properly or let it go. However, some staff look things up but don't actually know what they're looking at. For instance, the clerk who told me an overdistance excess could only be sold if a train stopped at the destination sold on the ticket under Condition 19b.

He was looking at an extract from The Manual which said an overdistance excess could be sold - but if cheaper, to offer an extension single ticket to be used in conjunction with the existing ticket, which would then have to be a 19b compliant combination.

If one has problems reading and understanding basic comprehension, then no amount of looking up is going to help - if anything, it can make matters worse.

 
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island

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I had the same problem with my LM boundary zone saga. The clerk there said because all the examples in the Manual had boundary zone as an origin, she wasn't allowed to use boundary zone as a destination. I discussed it with the station manager and explained that a Southeastern station, the LM office at Euston, and two LM guards had all sold me tickets to a boundary zone, and he said "they need retraining". I replied "have you possibly considered that if all these other people think one way and you think the other, it might actually be you who are wrong?" And then the guard started dispatching my train, so I had to get going.
 

OwlMan

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I have had a recent dispute with EMT over the validity of a ticket and the issuing of a penalty fare, like RJ I sent several letters to both EMT & IRCAS but they never answered the questions asked just stating that their staff were correct (of course they were not) and I was mistaken and the penalty fare must stand..
I decided to have a word with my solicitors who then sent a letter detailing all my letters and the replies & setting out why they were wrong and I was correct along with a claim for damages and costs tiotalling £450 .
Within 14 days I had receive a cheque for the full amount

They obviously take more notice of solicitors than the normal passenger.
 

bb21

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I decided to have a word with my solicitors who then sent a letter detailing all my letters and the replies & setting out why they were wrong and I was correct along with a claim for damages and costs tiotalling £450 .
Within 14 days I had receive a cheque for the full amount

They obviously take more notice of solicitors than the normal passenger.

The full £450?! Blimey no wonder they're losing money.
 

RJ

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I have had a recent dispute with EMT over the validity of a ticket and the issuing of a penalty fare, like RJ I sent several letters to both EMT & IRCAS but they never answered the questions asked just stating that their staff were correct (of course they were not) and I was mistaken and the penalty fare must stand..
I decided to have a word with my solicitors who then sent a letter detailing all my letters and the replies & setting out why they were wrong and I was correct along with a claim for damages and costs tiotalling £450 .
Within 14 days I had receive a cheque for the full amount

They obviously take more notice of solicitors than the normal passenger.

Interesting - thanks for sharing that.

I'm taking a different approach with my claim - to include reasonable costs to cover the admin aspect of each incident. I'll also provide them with two differing options in a resolution for their consideration. Not just to compensate for previous incidents, but also to prevent future incidents of the same nature from occurring. I've made it abundantly clear what grounds I have for damages and the potential implications should they not take me seriously.

Will be fired off by first thing Monday morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I had the same problem with my LM boundary zone saga. The clerk there said because all the examples in the Manual had boundary zone as an origin, she wasn't allowed to use boundary zone as a destination. I discussed it with the station manager and explained that a Southeastern station, the LM office at Euston, and two LM guards had all sold me tickets to a boundary zone, and he said "they need retraining". I replied "have you possibly considered that if all these other people think one way and you think the other, it might actually be you who are wrong?" And then the guard started dispatching my train, so I had to get going.

I've had that "you must have been trained badly" line several times from retail/revenue protection staff when I tell them why I knew they were wrong in what they were saying. Best way of dealing with that one is to broach a topic which will force them to admit that they don't know everything.
 

NotDeadYet

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I'll also provide them with two differing options in a resolution for their consideration. Not just to compensate for previous incidents, but also to prevent future incidents of the same nature from occurring.

It might be worth delaying a few days to run through your proposals with a solicitor. You can then add the cost of the consultation to your claim. And, if there are further developments, there will be someone to consult who is already up to speed with your situation.
 

RJ

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Thanks for the suggestion. However, I decided to write back without the desire to invoke the services of any third parties. The ball is in their court. The nature of the dispute is somewhat unique as I'm a passenger type that perhaps the industry hasn't encountered in any degree of volume until now. You have those who buy their cheapest and simplest appropriate ticket for their journey, you have your fare evaders, then you have me - someone who pays the cheapest permissible fare identified, regardless of the level of complexity.

With respect to compensation - I have spent an inordinate amount of my time dealing with the aftermath of the actions of staff who believe I'm wrong - and also had to bite my lip whilst enduring some shocking levels of customer service. It is the case that all notices I've had have been cancelled and/or refunded as appropriate, but that's not what this is about. Whilst I do seek to recoup my administrative costs, I'm more interested in seeing improvements that will lead to a better experience for staff and passengers alike than seeking recompense for damages.

Things have calmed down significantly on the trains and I have people to thank for that - namely the person at EMT who has believed in me and taken the time to thoroughly investigate what it is I'm doing, rather than being dismissive. Then there are those with the knowledge at ATOC who I have been led to believe have provided EMT with sound advice on my ticketing arrangements. Since January, quite a few staff have recognised my name as it's usually printed on the ticket and also on my railcard. Last week, I came across a TM who I'd seen before. I said hi and we got talking for quite some time. I hadn't told her my name on the previous occasion as she gave me the benefit of the doubt, but apparently I am famous among the traincrew at her depot and there are mixed views on what I do. From my perspective, I treat all of them the equally in terms of willingly explaining why my tickets are valid. The reactions vary, which is something I have no control over. If they have a misconception over the rules and wish to penalise me on that basis, all there is for me to do is put across my point of view and hope they listen! It's not about being a knowitall or smoke screening fare evasion as some appear to believe.

Re: payment methods. I've cashed the Traveller's Cheque and will get rid of the £2.30 Postal Order when I can. I do still have National Transport Tokens and Rail Travel Vouchers in my inventory.

I've been on both sides of the fence with regards to revenue protection and it was somewhat surreal to be appealing several PFN/UFNs issued against me when I've been registered as RP staff with both IRCAS and the RPSS! Still, the experience allows me to empathise with both staff and passengers who are involved in ticketing disputes. In the short term, I would like to see a move towards encouraging the use of the TIR instead of the UFN in cases where there is a dispute over validity. This allows the TOC to investigate and follow up the matter as appropriate. It also relieves pressure on those support services so they can deal with actual fare evasion cases. In the longer term, I would like to see a help desk type function implemented, so train crew who no longer have paper manuals have access to an expert with the ability to determine validity quickly, with the TIR being the backup option. Such a person could hold various other responsibilities to earn their salary. I genuinely believe there are more efficient ways of dealing with ticketing disputes and let's face it, perhaps more mind should be paid to the category of passenger that I fall into, what with the media coverage rail fares and split ticketing are getting.

There was a minor hiccup the other day when using the outward portion of an Orrell Park to Rugeley Trent Valley "Online Only SVR" to get to London. It was printed out on the 6th February (before the closure of the London loophole.) As such, there was a ToD reference and my name on the ticket. The TM claimed she had never seen such a ticket before and asked where Orrell Park was. When I told her I thought it was between Walton and Maghull, she took the ticket and disappeared, without issuing any paperwork or indicating what was going to happen next - I never saw her again and consequently, had problems at the gateline at St Pancras. Not wishing to go on a wild goose chase looking for supervisors and the TM, I phoned up the HQ to request assistance getting through the barriers. It was sorted promptly so I'm not going to bother complaining about that. That said, I will feed back as I would like to see correct procedures being followed where it comes to withdrawing tickets, as it saves problems for the passenger and other staff down the line who then have to deal with the problem.

With respect to the ticketing front - ATOC and EMT collaboratively have come close to shutting down all of my existing arrangements. A few of them were annihilated with the recent removal of the West Hampstead doubleback easement and EMT's decision to get rid of many Not Via London routed fares. I understand Rugby to Derby via Bedford will be invalidated in due course so enjoy it whilst you can. I'm yet to buy a through flexible ticket for the actual journey I make between St Pancras and the East Midlands. To be honest, I don't envisage this happening for the remaining time I have commuting between the two places. A change in circumstances means I will soon be looking for new tickets to buy.

The less said about the Rugeley to Wigan fare, the better! This was flagged up for various reasons - the price of the tickets, my somewhat haphazard decision to use Bootle Stations instead of other shacks and one RPI's determination to pin something on me. In all fairness, unless you're familiar with the concept of bizarre routes being permitted by the NRG, you're not giving to give someone using a Rugeley to Wigan ticket between London and Sheffield the time of day, so kudos to EMT for having this investigated. I just wish I was a fly on the wall at the moment it was confirmed to them that I was right to use those tickets. I doubt I'll find tickets as cheap as those for my commute - £14.25 for an Off Peak Return by any train after 09:00 was a bargain.

Some of you may have noticed that I've removed my custom user title. I should also remark that I will cease blogging about certain aspects of my travel experiences but I thank those that have been following for their interest!
 
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soil

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Some of you may have noticed that I've removed my custom user title. I should also remark that I will cease blogging about certain aspects of my travel experiences but I thank those that have been following for their interest!

Does that mean that you are no longer loophole hunting? Or merely that you intend to do so more quietly?
 

bb21

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Does that mean that you are no longer loophole hunting? Or merely that you intend to do so more quietly?

Unfortunately sometimes loopholes are best not communicated or published. I think I do agree with RJ on one thing - that some things are best communicated in private.

What is difficult with giving more consideration to the category of passengers that RJ falls into is cost. There is only a very tiny proportion of passengers who will fall into that group and having more staff trained up on a large proportion of the system is simply not going to be cost-effective. Unfortunately these days this industry is all business and mostly about money.

What is important in this respect is that a culture needs to be changed - that staff should not be claiming things they are not sure about and be willing to check when comprehensively challenged. This should be a principle that is drilled into staff's minds at training.
 

RJ

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Does that mean that you are no longer loophole hunting? Or merely that you intend to do so more quietly?

I will continue to identify the best value tickets to use for journeys I make.

Unfortunately sometimes loopholes are best not communicated or published. I think I do agree with RJ on one thing - that some things are best communicated in private.

What is difficult with giving more consideration to the category of passengers that RJ falls into is cost. There is only a very tiny proportion of passengers who will fall into that group and having more staff trained up on a large proportion of the system is simply not going to be cost-effective. Unfortunately these days this industry is all business and mostly about money.

What is important in this respect is that a culture needs to be changed - that staff should not be claiming things they are not sure about and be willing to check when comprehensively challenged. This should be a principle that is drilled into staff's minds at training.

I think it's about more than addressing a tiny minority of passengers. If a company is bestowing its staff with the authority to commit passengers to a debt over ticketing matters, the least it could do is make sure the staff are aware of the rules. It's in their best interests to do so too, for reasons that may not be obvious.

I mean a couple of days ago, I had a ticket withdrawn on an EMT service because the TM didn't know whether or not it was permissible for me to resume my journey a few days after I had started it. I was on the outward portion of an Anytime Return and was travelling on the expiry date, so the ticket was still in date. This is the kind of thing that paying customers are having to contend with. After an extra extended period of dithering by the TM, I got it back but as a direct consequence, I was subjected to a significant delay and was forced to change my plans for the day which meant the Advance fare I had for the next journey was invalidated. Before anyone asks, no there was no dispute over the routing or suspected reuse as I also showed the unused return portion.

I then had to fester at the station for 60 minutes and listen to the ticket office clerk tell me that it was absolutely fine to start short on an Advance ticket. He was put out that I didn't appear to be taking his word for it and was bemused when I asked him to stamp a bit of paper and write that down, but eventually did it after I persisted.

Where did I go wrong this time?
 
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bb21

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Where did I go wrong this time?

It is not about whether you did anything wrong, but how the complication of the current system is making life more difficult for staff and passengers alike.

My comments were aimed more at the difficulties you experienced with your payment methods. The issue with combining various bits of the Routeing Guide, the NRCoC, joining tickets while stopping/starting short, using restriction text loopholes, etc, also arguably falls into this category. In comparison, the mistake over the validity of the outward portion of an Anytime Return appears more basic, as it is printed on the ticket itself, and there is no excuse whatsoever not to accept the ticket.

The system is hugely complex, and realistically companies will not train their staff up on every aspect of it (or even a large proportion of it), especially those that only a tiny minority use, for the reasons I stated. A line will be drawn somewhere after which they are considered competent for their jobs. This should not be an issue, provided that the companies instill in the minds of their staff from day one the willingness to check, either with The Manual, a more senior member of staff or whatever sources are available to them, and not making rules up as they go along.

I am not trying to explain away their behaviour if that is what you think. I though have doubts how much can be done in addition to changing staff's attitude in those situations without drastic changes to the ticketing system (and I am sure not everyone on here is in favour of changes). That, is something only achievable with the involvement government efforts.
 

RJ

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It is not about whether you did anything wrong, but how the complication of the current system is making life more difficult for staff and passengers alike.

My comments were aimed more at the difficulties you experienced with your payment methods. The issue with combining various bits of the Routeing Guide, the NRCoC, joining tickets while stopping/starting short, using restriction text loopholes, etc, also arguably falls into this category. In comparison, the mistake over the validity of the outward portion of an Anytime Return appears more basic, as it is printed on the ticket itself, and there is no excuse whatsoever not to accept the ticket.

The system is hugely complex, and realistically companies will not train their staff up on every aspect of it (or even a large proportion of it), especially those that only a tiny minority use, for the reasons I stated. A line will be drawn somewhere after which they are considered competent for their jobs. This should not be an issue, provided that the companies instill in the minds of their staff from day one the willingness to check, either with The Manual, a more senior member of staff or whatever sources are available to them, and not making rules up as they go along.

I am not trying to explain away their behaviour if that is what you think. I though have doubts how much can be done in addition to changing staff's attitude in those situations without drastic changes to the ticketing system (and I am sure not everyone on here is in favour of changes). That, is something only achievable with the involvement government efforts.

It was a rhetorical question really. It caught me off guard, as I was using a normal ticket on a perfectly reasonable route and wasn't expecting to have any trouble. I've been on that TM's train before and he always asks questions - too many questions. Last time, he wanted a photo of my Rugeley - Bootle ticket and the time before that, he was putting through phonecalls to ask where the Priv East Midands 3 in 7 flexi rover I was using was valid.

The ticketing system is what it is. Complex or whatever, it's there and staff should be trained up properly on it. In this day and age of company mobiles and PDAs, I don't think it would beyond the realms of possibility for those to be loaded with a copy of the NRCoC for reference. As I say, it's actually only a small percentage of guards I have these problems with - the vast majority of them possess the skills to handle the situation professionally and competently. As an aside, every single one of those guards and RP staff who have been in the job since a few months ago have had this message;

FYA

[My name] travels on our services on a regular basis between London and places within the Leicestershire and Derbyshire area.

He uses a complex combination of tickets for his journey that on first sight may seem to be outside of the Routing Guide. (Other TOCs routing involved)
These have been checked with ATOC and the combinations and restrictions of tickets have, to this date, been found to be perfectly valid .

The gentleman is very knowledgeable in this field.

DO NOT ISSUE A UFN OR PF OR CHALLENGE HIM ON HIS TICKETS.

However, please make a note of his journey and the tickets held and times travelled and feed them back to me so that we may more fully understand his combinations.

In my eyes, that instruction seems as straightforward to understand as an expiry date on a ticket - but allowances have to be made for those who aren't able to understand.

It's not just ticketing competency that is lacklustre - I've been going through some of the paperwork the ticket inspectors have submitted internally after encountering me and have concerns over whether some of them should actually be tasked with carrying out revenue protection duties. Of the seven notices I've had, not one of them was filled out correctly and I was able to pick holes in all of them. If some of the things they've written in their statements of brief events ever found their way into a witness statement and used in court, it's possible they could be arrested for perjury. One of them who was adamant on charging me for a new undiscounted Anytime Single on board for over £70 actually wrote down that he was unsure if the tickets I had were invalid - but he never alluded to this in person, or entertained the idea of using his discretion. Is it really in a TOC's best interests to let people who seemingly know next to nothing about tickets or being meticulous loose on passengers, bestowed with the authority to collect money and commit passengers to debts?
 
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Flamingo

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FYA

[My name] travels on our services on a regular basis between London and places within the Leicestershire and Derbyshire area.

He uses a complex combination of tickets for his journey that on first sight may seem to be outside of the Routing Guide. (Other TOCs routing involved)
These have been checked with ATOC and the combinations and restrictions of tickets have, to this date, been found to be perfectly valid .

The gentleman is very knowledgeable in this field.

DO NOT ISSUE A UFN OR PF OR CHALLENGE HIM ON HIS TICKETS.

However, please make a note of his journey and the tickets held and times travelled and feed them back to me so that we may more fully understand his combinations.

Wow, that's fame! :lol::lol::lol:
 

yorkie

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" so that we may more fully understand his combinations." = ask ATOC to alter the Routeing Guide to close down anomalies as much as possible, such as removing the "LONDON" entry for Wigan - Rugeley ;)
 
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