Complex route/Restriction 2C

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skt36

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I'm planning quite a complex journey and could do with some clarification on how the off peak restrictions work.

I will be travelling from Wigan ([stn]WGN[/stn]) to Cambridge ([stn]CBG[/stn]) on an off peak return from CBG to WHG routed via Ely that I plan to excess the return half of. I want to travel via Henley so the plan is to get an early Virgin Trains service from WGN to somewhere near Birmingham making use of the railcard easement.

I plan on then travelling to Reading and purchasing a ticket from Twyford to Henley and back before continuing my journey through London to Cambridge.
My difficulty is which trains from Birmingham I can take.

The national rail 2C restriction says

"For journeys to/via Birmingham on CrossCountry, use restriction code 2V"

whereas the brfares one says

"If travel is NOT to/via the stations listed below or Peterborough, see restriction code 2V."

So the first question would be if 2C or 2V should be applied.

2C then reads

"DEPART: LONDON PADDINGTON Between 0810 & 1640 (inc.) and at or after 1801. (see note below)"

As the restriction for a service into Paddington.

As my journey from that point has to be into Paddington, does this restriction apply or does the fact that I will be switching from a XC train to a FGW train mean that the restriction only applies to the FGW service?

The two options below would be preferable, if anyone could let me know about the validity of these journeys that would be great.

05:45 Wigan North Western
06:46 Tamworth Train VIRGIN TRAINS 01h 01
07:09 Tamworth
09:11 Reading Station Train CROSSCOUNTRY 02h 02
09:33 Reading Station
09:39 Twyford Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN 00h 06
09:49 Twyford
10:00 Henley-On-Thames Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN 00h 11

06:27 Wigan North Western
07:55 Birmingham New Street Train VIRGIN TRAINS 01h 28
08:04 Birmingham New Street
09:39 Reading Station Train CROSSCOUNTRY 01h 35
09:48 Reading Station
09:54 Twyford Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN 00h 06
10:20 Twyford
10:32 Henley-On-Thames Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN 00h 12

If these aren't doable due to the via Birmingham section, and I use a Virgin service to Nuneaton and join the XC service at Coventry, or take a Virgin train to BHI and join the XC service there, is the important time for the restriction the time at which the train is scheduled to depart the station it is boarded at, or the time at which the train begins its journey from Birmingham?
 
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barrykas

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In brief:

The easement allowing Railcard-discounted Off-Peak Returns to be used at any time won't apply because the entire journey isn't on Virgin Trains services.

The appropriate restriction code would be 2V, which is trains leaving at or after 0930. Were you going directly to Euston, it'd be 9I, which is trains arriving before 0720 and at or after 1130.

Cheers,

Barry
 

skt36

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The way I've found the Virgin rule to be implemented is that so long as you are on a Virgin train it's fine. I know the Virgin leaflet says the journey must be on Virgin trains, but the journey could just be from Wigan to Birmingham for example. The fact that the ticket is for a longer journey isn't relevant.

brfares words the easement as

"Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards, may use ANY Virgin_train service, provided that the route on the ticket is not "Virgin Trains Only" and the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restictions apply."

which would support that.
 

OwlMan

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brfares words the easement as

"Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards, may use ANY Virgin_train service, provided that the route on the ticket is not "Virgin Trains Only" and the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restictions apply."

which would support that.
That may be but BRfares in not an official site and that is the wording of the previous version not the current one which is

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. (This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central/Northampton and London Euston).



Peter
 
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skt36

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Where can you find the most up to date version of the easement? It's a bit of a nightmare trying to get any official information. From reading the thread on here it seemed that the consensus was that so long as you only use it for Virgin Trains you'll be fine.

As for the 2C or 2V issue. Is the wording of to/via on CrossCountry the most recent? If so, does to/via include journeys starting at Birmingham? As I can travel through Birmingham without using a CrossCountry service, how can 2V be the relevant restriction?

After looking at the routing guide I realised that most of the routes around Birmingham weren't allowed so I need to either buy a ticket for the London Midland service and jump from one allowed route to another. (Not exactly allowed but who will know that the ticket was used on another route), use a Virgin train through Birmingham, which should remove all the restrictions but inconveniently doesn't exist at the correct time, or buy a ticket from New Street to Birmingham International.
 

bb21

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Where can you find the most up to date version of the easement? It's a bit of a nightmare trying to get any official information. From reading the thread on here it seemed that the consensus was that so long as you only use it for Virgin Trains you'll be fine.
This might be the case sometimes, however the way things stand at the moment, the easement does not apply to your journey. If you wish to take a chance then it is entirely your choice however this is not what we recommend.

I will be travelling from Wigan ([stn]WGN[/stn]) to Cambridge ([stn]CBG[/stn]) on an off peak return from CBG to WHG routed via Ely that I plan to excess the return half of.
There is no Route Via Ely option for the journey Wigan Stations - Cambridge, do you mean Route Not Via London? You want to excess the return portion to Route +Any Permitted?

I want to travel via Henley so the plan is to get an early Virgin Trains service from WGN to somewhere near Birmingham making use of the railcard easement.
As mentioned already, the easement does not apply. Sorry.

I plan on then travelling to Reading and purchasing a ticket from Twyford to Henley and back before continuing my journey through London to Cambridge.
Fair enough.

My difficulty is which trains from Birmingham I can take.

The national rail 2C restriction says

"For journeys to/via Birmingham on CrossCountry, use restriction code 2V"

whereas the brfares one says

...
NRE information will be more authoritative. BRFares has no authority whatsoever and is just an unofficial reference.

The two options below would be preferable, if anyone could let me know about the validity of these journeys that would be great.

...
Neither are permitted unfortunately as explained above.
 

skt36

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This might be the case sometimes, however the way things stand at the moment, the easement does not apply to your journey. If you wish to take a chance then it is entirely your choice however this is not what we recommend.
I would be fine taking that chance but I just realised that I don't need the easement.

There is no Route Via Ely option for the journey Wigan Stations - Cambridge, do you mean Route Not Via London? You want to excess the return portion to Route +Any Permitted?
The fare to Westhoughton has Via Ely, it has both Bolton and Wigan as routing points. I wanted to pick a ticket that had Via Ely for the journey home as it is the cheapest route, but could be excessed with just a route change so that I only paid half the difference.

I realised that I had missed the restriction on routes via Reading so I definitely have to use a different service through Birmingham, however I also noticed that none of the 2C restrictions apply to trains into Birmingham.

If I take the Virgin service to BHM, and then the 8:15 from BMO to Leamington Spa where I change onto the CrossCountry service, will I fall foul of the restriction on trains into Marylebone or will the fact that I'm getting off at Banbury and the next relevant station is actually Reading mean that doesn't affect me?
 

OwlMan

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Which ticket are you actually going to purchase?. Any what are you going to excess it to?
It is unclear in your posts what the answers to the above questions are.
If you are buying a Cambridge to Westhoughton ticket the restriction code for "via Ely" is CG and for the "any permitted" 9I. 2C does not enter the equation.
If you are buying Cambridge to Wigan tickets then the "not London is 2C and the via London is 9I - again for a via London journey 9I would be the relevent restriction
 
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John @ home

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If I take the Virgin service to BHM, and then the 8:15 from BMO to Leamington Spa where I change onto the CrossCountry service, will I fall foul of the restriction on trains into Marylebone
Yes, I'm afraid so.

If using a Railcard £48.80 Off-Peak Return (SVR) Cambridge - Westhoughton route via Ely ticket, with a Railcard £6.60 Excess Fare to travel by route + Any Permitted on the return leg only:
  • SVR Validity Code 9I applies to the return leg.
  • 2C states that "You may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive London Marylebone at or after 1130".
  • The 0815 from Birmingham Moor St is scheduled to arrive London Marylebone at 0959, so that train cannot be used with this ticket for any part of your journey.
 
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skt36

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Which ticket are you actually going to purchase?. Any what are you going to excess it to?
It is unclear in your posts what the answers to the above questions are.
If you are buying a Cambridge to Westhoughton ticket the restriction code for "via Ely" is CG and for the "any permitted" 9I. 2C does not enter the equation.
If you are buying Cambridge to Wigan tickets then the "not London is 2C and the via London is 9I - again for a via London journey 9I would be the relevent restriction
Sorry, that was my mistake in reading which code applied to which direction and it should be 9I.
I don't think the 2C/9I issue affects much besides the Chiltern train.

As for the ticket. I have a CBG-WHG return via Ely, I plan to excess the return half to via London.

John @ home said:
2C states that "You may travel on any train that is scheduled to arrive London Marylebone at or after 1130".
The 0815 from Birmingham Moor St is scheduled to arrive London Marylebone at 0959, so that train cannot be used with this ticket for any part of your journey.
Does this come into play even if my travel isn't through London Marylebone? Up to that point I haven't passed through a London Terminal or Reading and could feasibly be finishing my journey at Leamington.

I guess the easiest way would be to purchase a ticket between Birmingham and Leamington Spa but obviously not having to pay extra is preferable. As Chiltern have penalty fares does this mean that if I boarded the train with the Off Peak ticket and the guard decided it wasn't valid I would have to pay a penalty fare? If it was on a service without penalty fares I could give the guard the Off Peak ticket, and if they didn't accept the argument then just pay the appropriate fare right? (undiscounted Anytime Single)

The only other way I can see to arrange this would be to claim that 9I applies instead of 2V to the 8:33 from BHM to RDG because it is FROM Birmingham and not TO or VIA. How dubious is that claim?
 

barrykas

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The only other way I can see to arrange this would be to claim that 9I applies instead of 2V to the 8:33 from BHM to RDG because it is FROM Birmingham and not TO or VIA. How dubious is that claim?
Very...Your journey is Wigan to Cambridge VIA Birmingham. And the restriction applies to the train's destination, not yours. Hence, the first Chiltern service which such a ticket is valid on is the 0955 from Moor Street.

Of course, you're more than welcome to try and board an earlier train, but don't be surprised if the Train Manager wants to charge you the £180.25 Excess to the Anytime Return for the privilege. ;) Or s/he may just sell you a new Single to Leamington Spa for £8.60.

Cheers,

Barry
 

John @ home

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Does this come into play even if my travel isn't through London Marylebone?
Yes it does. Sorry.

You are not allowed to use a train which arrives in London Marylebone before 1130 at any point on that train's journey.
The only other way I can see to arrange this would be to claim that 9I applies instead of 2V to the 8:33 from BHM to RDG because it is FROM Birmingham and not TO or VIA. How dubious is that claim?
That won't work. Validity code 9I states "For journeys to/via Birmingham on CrossCountry, use restriction code 2V". If you board the 0833 at Birmingham New St, there can be no doubt that your journey from Westhoughton to Cambridge is via Birmingham.
I guess the easiest way would be to purchase a ticket between Birmingham and Leamington Spa but obviously not having to pay extra is preferable.
Due to the large number of other restrictions, it is not obvious to me that this will solve your problem. What itinerary do you propose?
 
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skt36

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That won't work. Validity code 2C states "For journeys to/via Birmingham on CrossCountry, use restriction code 2V". If you board the 0833 at Birmingham New St, there can be no doubt that your journey from Westhoughton to Cambridge is via Birmingham.
The journey is via Birmingham, but the section on CrossCountry is FROM Birmingham.

Due to the large number of other restrictions, it is not obvious to me that this will solve your problem. What itinerary do you propose?
Using the tickets,

CBG-WHG
BMO-LMS

6:27 WGN to BHM
8:15 BMO to LMS
9:00 LMS to RDG

Then continuing from there

Alternatively, using just

CBG-WHG

6:27 WGN to BHM
8:39 BHM to BHI
9:14 BHI to RDG
 

34D

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As Chiltern have penalty fares does this mean that if I boarded the train with the Off Peak ticket and the guard decided it wasn't valid I would have to pay a penalty fare?
I'm not an expert on penalty fares (well, I'm not an expert on anything, but never mind) and certainly not Chiltern's PFs however I believe on FCC they would issue a normal excess and not a PF if in this situation.
 

John @ home

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The journey is via Birmingham, but the section on CrossCountry is FROM Birmingham.
There is very little doubt that XC have instructed their staff that Code 2V applies if the journey is via Birmingham and CrossCountry is used.

Whether a Court would agree with this interpretation is a different matter, but you are very likely not to have a trouble-free journey if you relied on Code 9I applying, not 2V. We try to give advice which results in trouble-free journeys.
6:27 WGN to BHM
8:15 BMO to LMS
9:00 LMS to RDG
0627 Virgin train is OK because it meets the conditions of Code 2C
0815 Chiltern Train is OK because you would have a separate ticket Birmingham - Leamington.
My expectation is that you would not have a trouble-free journey on the 0900 XC service unless you were able to produce a valid travel itinerary. I'm finding it difficult to devise one which would allow you catch the 0900 from Leamington on a weekday.
6:27 WGN to BHM
8:39 BHM to BHI
9:14 BHI to RDG
0627 Virgin train is OK.
0839 LM train is OK because it terminates at Birmingham Int'l.
0914 is a XC service and I would not expect a trouble-free journey.
 
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OwlMan

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There is very little doubt that XC have instructed their staff that Code 2V applies if the journey is via Birmingham and CrossCountry is used.

Whether a Court would agree with this interpretation is a different matter, but you are very likely not to have a trouble-free journey if you relied on Code 2C applying, not 2V. We try to give advice which results in trouble-free journeys.
0627 Virgin train is OK because it meets the conditions of Code 2C
0815 Chiltern Train is OK because you would have a separate ticket Birmingham - Leamington.
My expectation is that you would not have a trouble-free journey on the 0900 XC service unless you were able to produce a valid travel itinerary. I'm finding it difficult to devise one which would allow you catch the 0900 from Leamington on a weekday.
0627 Virgin train is OK.
0839 LM train is OK because it terminates at Birmingham Int'l.
0914 is a XC service and I would not expect a trouble-free journey.
But the ticket restiction is 9I


You can catch any train to Euston that arrives before 0720 or at or after 1130.
You can catch any train to Marylebone that arrives at or after 1130
You can catch any train to Paddington that arrives at or after 1010
You can catch any train to Reading that arrives at or after 0940

If you travel to/via Birmingham on Cross Country you can not catch any train departing before 0930
There is no valid route to Reading avoiding Birmingham and as you will be travelling via Birmingham and using Cross Country I agree with John @ Home that the restiction can be interperated that you can not leave Wigan until 0930.


Peter
 

skt36

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I could have started my journey at a station after Birmingham.

There are valid routes via Birmingham without using CrossCountry so I can get as far as at least the first CrossCountry service before the 2V/9I issue arises.

The question would be once I'm on the CrossCountry service. Does 2V require you to travel via Birmingham, and use a CrossCountry service, or does it require you to travel via Birmingham on a CrossCountry service?

I would try and argue that by not using the CrossCountry service through Birmingham that 9I applies. If it was about a journey through Birmingham it would be subtly different.

The CrossCountry travel is from LMS or BMI to RDG. As that section is not via Birmingham I'd hope that there would be enough grey areas for me to get away with it.

That said. For a completely safe itinerary, how is?

6:27 WGN to BHM
8:15 BMO to LMS
9:38 LMS to RDG
 

John @ home

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For a completely safe itinerary, how is?

6:27 WGN to BHM
8:15 BMO to LMS
9:38 LMS to RDG
6:27 WGN to BHM is OK - see above.
8:15 BMO to LMS is OK if you buy a separate ticket.
9:38 LMS to RDG is OK because you're allowed to travel WHG - LMS the previous day and break your journey, resuming by any train after 0930.
 

LexyBoy

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9:38 LMS to RDG is OK because you're allowed to travel WHG - LMS the previous day and break your journey, resuming by any train after 0930.
But this would all be on the same day, which could potentially be seen if the ticket was stamped. Not that the guard would be at all likely to consider this.

You could avoid XC completely if you bought a ticket for BMO-BAN, and used FGW from there, which would at least be direct to TWY.

Have you looked at just travelling direct to EUS and buying a return ve Henley from Padders? I think it'll probably be quicker and if you're already considering buying extra tickets it may not cost a lot more.

 

skt36

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The FGW route takes ages and makes me miss even more of the day.

In hindsight the Euston route might have been better but I'm travelling with a guy who has an advance to Birmingham and a ticket from Birmingham to Cambridge. Also, I thought that there would be a problem with the easement on a Virgin train.

I guess a possibility would be to ask on the train to BHM if it was fine for us to use the next train from BHM to EUS, then double back to Henley that way.
 
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