Construction progress: TPE 350/4

[Class377/5]

stop diluding yourself, we'll be traveling to Manchester from far away places like Edinburgh and Glasgow and Penrith 10 years from now on these same units. Megabus have certainly not lost a customer.

Not really, new fleet will be need for the TPE North wires so make sense to have a uniformed fleet. That's if West Coast don't get the services back.

 

[transmanche]

my only concern is the lack of vestibule doors protecting passengers from the elements during winter calls at places like Lockerbie or Oxenholme...

So no different from what happens on the current 185 units then...

 

[Starmill]

You can't quite see it because of the poor design, but this new 'cartoon' on the TPE website says they are 100mph units.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/campaigns/new-trains/

 

[Class377/5]

You can't quite see it because of the poor design, but this new 'cartoon' on the TPE website says they are 100mph units.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/campaigns/new-trains/

Also states..

The new trains will be able to travel at speeds up to 100mph where the track and line permit. As such journey times are expected to be at least 3 minutes quicker between Manchester and Scotland and intermediate stations. The trains have a faster acceleration to 100mph than the current class 185s. We are working with Siemens and Network Rail to enable the trains to operate at 110mph in the future. We hope to achieve this by May 2014.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So no different from what happens on the current 185 units then...

Indeed, which was the reason for my concern: Such doors should be fitted to the 185s too. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to see errors repeated though!

 

[pemma]

my only concern is the lack of vestibule doors protecting passengers from the elements during winter calls at places like Lockerbie or Oxenholme...

As TPE are talking about running 8 car formations it means at quite a few stations the trains will be longer than the platform shelter length so the cold air can easily enter the train in the winter.

Though I suppose they'd get in the way of the crush-loadings between Manchester and Preston!

They will be going via Wigan and running every hour so the loading figures will be different on the Manchester-Preston section.

 

[transmanche]

Indeed, which was the reason for my concern: Such doors should be fitted to the 185s too. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to see errors repeated though!

Well yes, a 444-style configuration would be better for long distance passengers - but unfortunately these units (both 185 and 350/4) provide short-distance commuter services as well as long-distance inter-city services - hence the door formation in the 185s. (Don't just think about the north west, try the 17:06 from Newcastle, which provides a rush hour service to Chester-le-Street, Durham and Darlington - with end doors, the dwell times at those stations would be considerably longer.)

Long-term, I thought the 350/4s will go to London Midland anyway (only being sub-leased to TPE?)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As TPE are talking about running 8 car formations it means at quite a few stations the trains will be longer than the platform shelter length so the cold air can easily enter the train in the winter.

As happens on any 8/12-car train with a 1/3-2/3 door arrangement.

The solution is simple. Do what I do. Press the close door button after boarding. (You can even do this when alighting.)

 

[Eagle]

Long-term, I thought the 350/4s will go to London Midland anyway (only being sub-leased to TPE?)

That is the plan. 350s on Manchester to Scotland are a stopgap, nothing more. We can probably expect a longer-term option to be procured at the same time as the TPE North electrification.

 

[pemma]

Long-term, I thought the 350/4s will go to London Midland anyway (only being sub-leased to TPE?)

That is the plan. 350s on Manchester to Scotland are a stopgap, nothing more. We can probably expect a longer-term option to be procured at the same time as the TPE North electrification.

The 350/4s won't be subleased from LM. They are part of an order placed by LM but will be TPE units.

Long term there are aspirations for Manchester-Scotland services to have Liverpool portions attached to them, which will require more trains to do and some people assume that it will mean a new order and a cascade of 350s from TPE to LM but that is not confirmed. Indeed, commuter IEP is being considered for Northampton-London which may leave LM with surplus 350s without taking on to the 350/4s, so the cascade could be 350/1s or 350/3s from LM to TPE to allow Liverpool portions to be attached. The original electrification announcement by the previous government did suggest a cascade of surplus EMUs off Euston services north, which a lot of people dismissed as a mistake.

 

[swt_passenger]

To add to the above by jcollins, the ITT for the new 350s expressly stated that part of LM's contract for the extra 10 units would be 'novated to' TPE.

That is a distinct legal term that emphasises it is NOT a sub-lease in the normal way of things.

 

[Brunel]

You can't quite see it because of the poor design, but this new 'cartoon' on the TPE website says they are 100mph units.

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/campaigns/new-trains/

Also states..

The new trains will be able to travel at speeds up to 100mph where the track and line permit. As such journey times are expected to be at least 3 minutes quicker between Manchester and Scotland and intermediate stations. The trains have a faster acceleration to 100mph than the current class 185s. We are working with Siemens and Network Rail to enable the trains to operate at 110mph in the future. We hope to achieve this by May 2014.

Amazing. 110 mph between Manchester and Scotland. Whatever next? Hardly a technological achievement is it? Maybe for a suburban train it is. There were plenty of Class 87s and coaches available for the Scotland run. Instead of them being overhauled and sent to Europe. What a waste!

 

[edwin_m]

It would make sense for the 350/4 to join the rest of the 350s at some time in the future. At some stage LM will need some more units to cover growth, or I could even set the cat among the pigeons by suggesting that the 350s could be the new TPE fleet with LM getting something new?!

For such a small fleet it makes sense to tack the Manchester-Scotland build onto an existing order rather than go through a separate procurement which could result in a non-standard and unproven design that could be unreliable and would struggle to find a home when no longer required by TPE. We've been there often enough already.

 

[pemma]

Amazing. 110 mph between Manchester and Scotland. Whatever next? Hardly a technological achievement is it? Maybe for a suburban train it is. There were plenty of Class 87s and coaches available for the Scotland run. Instead of them being overhauled and sent to Europe. What a waste!

Manchester-Scotland services were timed for 110mph running when Virgin ran them. Although, Virgin did include more recovery time than TPE have currently.

At some stage LM will need some more units to cover growth, or I could even set the cat among the pigeons by suggesting that the 350s could be the new TPE fleet with LM getting something new?!

What routes are they going to need more capacity on? Northern, FGW and TPE routes that had a need for extra capacity identified in 2008 and they are still waiting for the promised extra capacity. I think the 350s will be the only additional electric carriages LM get in the foreseeable future* unless they get some commuter IEP trains.

Apparently the 350s aren't suitable for some of the class 323 services due to platform lengths.

The 'high capacity' 350/2s only have around the same number of seats as the 323s but that could change if the 323s get an accessible toilet or if the 350/2s have First Class removed.

The Crewe-London through services aren't part of the franchise requirement and could be split up in the future, even more likely if Northampton-London moves to commuter IEP.

* I'm not ruling out them getting the 350/4s in place of the 321s though.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

On the LM situation you have to consider that Cross City South is being extended to Bromsgrove and Redditch is going up from 2tph to 3tph, add on Walsall- Rugeley electrification and you find there will not be enough LM 323s to do the job. yes there are the 350/3s but it has been stated that seven of those are for west coast (remind me howmany 321s do LM have) and only three for west midlands capaciy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, which was the reason for my concern: Such doors should be fitted to the 185s too. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to see errors repeated though!

Once the Class 185 units are released from some of their existing routes, is there any intimation that a refurbishment program to effect such amendments you state will be considered ?

 

[transmanche]

Once the Class 185 units are released from some of their existing routes, is there any intimation that a refurbishment program to effect such amendments you state will be considered ?

By 'refurbishment' do you mean 'completely rebuilding'? Because that's the only way you're going to get doors into a different position...

 

[WillPS]

The position of the train doors on 185s is entirely appropriate. Witness the dwell times on 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly vs that of a 158 to see why.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

By 'refurbishment' do you mean 'completely rebuilding'? Because that's the only way you're going to get doors into a different position...

My posting was made in response to the posting made by 61653HTAFC and posed a rhetorical question in response to the point that he endeavoured to make.

I was not acting as a proponent for such a course of the said action.

 

[plastictaffy]

It frees up a whole vestibule for Std passengers to use... I suspect the practice is a carry over from the advent of the Guards office. They're still used in SWT and quite effectively I think. In the centre of the train, first class next to it.

That's actually not a guard's office. The Desiro's don't have them. My office on a Desiro is the rear cab, or any intermediate cab if they are in multiple. The bit that everyone thinks is a Gurad's office, isn't.

Any takers want to tell us what it actually is, or shall I??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To add to the above by jcollins, the ITT for the new 350s expressly stated that part of LM's contract for the extra 10 units would be 'novated to' TPE.

That is a distinct legal term that emphasises it is NOT a sub-lease in the normal way of things.

Sure I read somewhere that TPE taking the units through LM is something to do with some European directive. I don't know how, or why, but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.

 

[oversteer]

Kitchenette ?

 

[plastictaffy]

Good guess, but sadly not. Any more takers??

If it's any clue, they will probably be ripped out at refurb, as LM never bought the equipment that was needed to use it for it's intended purpose, if that makes sense......??

 

[WillPS]

It's an unused buffet area, I think.

 

[IanXC]

On the LM situation you have to consider that Cross City South is being extended to Bromsgrove and Redditch is going up from 2tph to 3tph, add on Walsall- Rugeley electrification and you find there will not be enough LM 323s to do the job. yes there are the 350/3s but it has been stated that seven of those are for west coast (remind me howmany 321s do LM have) and only three for west midlands capaciy.

I thought the 3 "West Midlands 350/3s" intended to cover the electrification extensions - will they not represent sufficient capacity?

LM have 7 321s.

 

[plastictaffy]

It's an unused buffet area, I think.

It is. There is a rack in there which is designed to be used by buffet trolllies. However, a standard buffet trolley won't fit, only the Siemens ones, which LM never bought, as they never had any intention of having trollies on services which I like to call 'The EasyJet of the rails!!'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LM have 7 321s.

They do. Currently running 411-417. They are mainly used on Tring terminators, (more often then not as 2 4 car sets, although in the new timetable there is at least one 12 car formation in the morning and evening, as 12 car Dusties can now be used at Bletchley since the platform was extended)

I was trained on them as part of my training, but it was mooted that perhaps I shouldn't have been as they are unlikely to be around for much longer. I imagine that they will be gone, once the ten new sets from Siemens come on stream. If they are going to be arriving December onwards, I can't see that the Dusties will make it past this time next year.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Amazing. 110 mph between Manchester and Scotland. Whatever next? Hardly a technological achievement is it? Maybe for a suburban train it is. There were plenty of Class 87s and coaches available for the Scotland run. Instead of them being overhauled and sent to Europe. What a waste!

Oh my, the dwell times on TPE services operated by mk3s would be horrendous. People take long enough as it is. Plug door would be a small improvement but not much of one! 110mph with far superior acceleration and reliability than the 87s too bear in mind.

I think the 1/3 2/3 layout is perfectly reasonable for what they do as they effectively not act as commuter trains for most of their journeys.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The position of the train doors on 185s is entirely appropriate. Witness the dwell times on 13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly vs that of a 158 to see why.

Dwell times may be shorter with 'middly doors', but surely you get more seats/tables/legroom (though not all of the above) with a 158, which is what you want for longer-distance journeys. If a train doesn't stop much, surely an extra minute dwell matters far less than it does on a stopping service. TPE is no stopping service, is it? the clue's in the name, Trans-Pennine EXPRESS. Use express stock (something like 158s/442s/444s) on express services, use suburban stock (like 170s, 172s, 377s etc.) on stoppers and short-distance services.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's actually not a guard's office. The Desiro's don't have them. My office on a Desiro is the rear cab...

However there are many (172?) Desiros operating with SWT that DO have their guards office's in use. Possibly Best not to generalise...

Sure I read somewhere that TPE taking the units through LM is something to do with some European directive. I don't know how, or why, but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.

Tacking the order for ten onto LM's existing order avoided raising a separate OJEU tender. By piggy backing onto LM's order they were able to avoid the fact that the 350 design was obsolescent. A separate TPE order would have had to meet newer crash resistance, like the 380 (if Siemens had got it)...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Dwell times may be shorter with 'middly doors', but surely you get more seats/tables/legroom (though not all of the above) with a 158, which is what you want for longer-distance journeys. If a train doesn't stop much, surely an extra minute dwell matters far less than it does on a stopping service. TPE is no stopping service, is it? the clue's in the name, Trans-Pennine EXPRESS. Use express stock (something like 158s/442s/444s) on express services, use suburban stock (like 170s, 172s, 377s etc.) on stoppers and short-distance services.

May i refer you to the Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Oxford Road section of the network which by 2016 will be seeing around 5 TPE trains per hour in each direction (2 to Leeds 3 to NW, it could be more to be honest!!!). This section is to be incredibly tightly timetabled with every minute counting. So saving 5+ minutes an hour will make a huge difference to this essential part of the network. For without it the timetable frequencies elsewhere will not happen. And just because it has express in the name... doesn't really mean much. On routes shared with Northern it stops less often, on the WCML it stops more often than all other operators. The WCML doesn't really travel very near coast at all. Yet Coast is in the name. Transpennine routes to Scotland don't cross the pennines yet Transpennine is part of the name.

 

[transmanche]

TPE is no stopping service, is it? the clue's in the name, Trans-Pennine EXPRESS.

Well over some parts of the TPE network, it is a stopping service. With no effective Northern service on the ECML between Newcastle and York (and no service at all between Darlington and York) TPE provide the stopping service and serve every station between Newcastle and York. A true express service wouldn't be calling at Chester-le-Street or Thirsk!

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, Manchester Airport to Blackpool, what's trans-pennine about THAT!?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tacking the order for ten onto LM's existing order avoided raising a separate OJEU tender. By piggy backing onto LM's order they were able to avoid the fact that the 350 design was obsolescent. A separate TPE order would have had to meet newer crash resistance, like the 380 (if Siemens had got it)...

Oh, so these 'new' trains are not only not the best for the route and a tack-on to an order which is not appropriate for this part of the country but they are also... less safe than they should be?