Bromley boy
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 4,611
I note you still haven’t answered my previous question about how you feel about our existing EU membership being based on a simple in/out vote in the 70s.
I can only assume it is because you have no answer to it.
With respect the above paragraph is nonsensical. You’re trying to compare a first past the post GE with a single issue referendum.
A general election is is not a single issue contest. People vote in GEs based on a range of domestic/international/economic/tribal issues.
It certainly doesn’t follow that, because 58% voted for parties other than the Tories in a GE, that “the public want the Tories out more than they want to leave the EU.”, unless you know for a fact that the 58% who didn’t vote also all wanted to remain (I expect that’s news to many UKIP voters ).
There are a great many people who didn’t vote Tory in the 2015 election who did vote leave in 2016. That is a mathematical certainty. Therefore your statement above is unsafe.
The 2016 referendum, on the other hand, was a straight two-way shoot out. We know that circa. 52% of votes cast were to leave. Therefore we can say that the result of that vote was that more of the public want to leave the EU than want to remain, irrespective of their party political affiliations.
But this is also nonsensical. What are you suggesting, that the government negotiates 6 different types of Brexit and we have another referendum to choose one?
Even if that weren possible (it isn’t), as I said before you should be very careful here because the “first past the post”/“biggest minority” favoured Brexit option may well be the hardest possible version.
I suspect what you really want isn’t a vote on the type of Brexit people want at all, it’s a rerun of the 2016 referendum which didn’t give you the result you wanted. Ie you want to ask the same question again.
How many times do I have to say I wouldn’t object to another referendum in the future, in principle.
But certainly not until after we have left and if/when things have changed enough to make another vote meaningful. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years time things will be different.
For now we need to respect the 2016 vote, leave, and make the best of it.
That’s something most remainers I know made their peace with long ago.
I can only assume it is because you have no answer to it.
If we look at the 2017 General Election result there was a turnout of just under 70% and almost 58% voted for parties other than the Conservatives, so you could say the public want to get the Conservatives out of government, more than they want to leave the EU.
With respect the above paragraph is nonsensical. You’re trying to compare a first past the post GE with a single issue referendum.
A general election is is not a single issue contest. People vote in GEs based on a range of domestic/international/economic/tribal issues.
It certainly doesn’t follow that, because 58% voted for parties other than the Tories in a GE, that “the public want the Tories out more than they want to leave the EU.”, unless you know for a fact that the 58% who didn’t vote also all wanted to remain (I expect that’s news to many UKIP voters ).
There are a great many people who didn’t vote Tory in the 2015 election who did vote leave in 2016. That is a mathematical certainty. Therefore your statement above is unsafe.
The 2016 referendum, on the other hand, was a straight two-way shoot out. We know that circa. 52% of votes cast were to leave. Therefore we can say that the result of that vote was that more of the public want to leave the EU than want to remain, irrespective of their party political affiliations.
I think it would be the same if we had a vote on the type of Brexit we want, the winning form of Brexit would get fewer votes than remaining in the EU got in the previous referendum which is why Brexiteers don't want another referendum of any kind on leaving the EU.
But this is also nonsensical. What are you suggesting, that the government negotiates 6 different types of Brexit and we have another referendum to choose one?
Even if that weren possible (it isn’t), as I said before you should be very careful here because the “first past the post”/“biggest minority” favoured Brexit option may well be the hardest possible version.
I suspect what you really want isn’t a vote on the type of Brexit people want at all, it’s a rerun of the 2016 referendum which didn’t give you the result you wanted. Ie you want to ask the same question again.
If that's your argument surely you also think we should have another referendum x years after leaving so that if we end up worse off as a result of being outside the EU then we have a chance of rejoining. Not that leaving and rejoining would be a good option due to the expense and the EU being unlikely to offer us the opt outs we currently have a founder member, given new members don't get the opt outs and the EU doesn't want countries walking out every time they are unhappy with something.
How many times do I have to say I wouldn’t object to another referendum in the future, in principle.
But certainly not until after we have left and if/when things have changed enough to make another vote meaningful. Perhaps in 20 or 30 years time things will be different.
For now we need to respect the 2016 vote, leave, and make the best of it.
That’s something most remainers I know made their peace with long ago.
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