Coronavirus: Is this the end of physical cash? Will we go completely electronic?

[Meerkat]

My local shop has removed the minimum card payment they used to have and says he has no intent to reinstate it.

That leaves the chippy as the only place I ever spend cash. Got 70 quid to use up...that's a lot of chips!

I have loads of cash! My mum insisted on paying in cash for the supplies I have taken round. She has loads of cash as she insists on collecting the pensions in cash

 

[najaB]

Outside the big towns and cities, the internet simply isn't reliable enough.

Generally speaking, that is not true. A card machine can work over dialup or 3/4G and even if Internet-connected over broadband it only needs a few tens of kilobytes per second. There are a few not-spots but these are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Bald Rick]

Generally speaking, that is not true. A card machine can work over dialup or 3/4G and even if Internet-connected over broadband it only needs a few tens of kilobytes per second. There are a few not-spots but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Agreed. I spent a lot of time in the rural Scottish highlands last year, and paid for everything (food shopping, accommodation, evening meals, lots of beer in several pubs) on card. Some of these places were the only building for miles. The only place that didn’t accept cash was the parking machine in Glen Muick, and that was resolved by paying over the web from my phone when I’d got up Lochnagar a bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have loads of cash! My mum insisted on paying in cash for the supplies I have taken round. She has loads of cash as she insists on collecting the pensions in cash

The chippy is back open again and is still cash only so I went and spent some of it

 

[island]

Generally speaking, that is not true. A card machine can work over dialup or 3/4G and even if Internet-connected over broadband it only needs a few tens of kilobytes per second. There are a few not-spots but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Mobile card machines as often as not work over 2G, would you believe, as the amount of data to transmit is fairly low and with just about nothing using the spectrum these days it’s easily available.

 

[najaB]

Mobile card machines as often as not work over 2G, would you believe, as the amount of data to transmit is fairly low and with just about nothing using the spectrum these days it’s easily available.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that any still used 2G.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. I wasn't aware that any still used 2G.

Any mobile device can fall back to 2G (EDGE) or even what you might term 1G (GPRS) if it doesn't have a better option.

 

[najaB]

Any mobile device can fall back to 2G (EDGE) or even what you might term 1G (GPRS) if it doesn't have a better option.

In theory yes, but the card reader I have used does not. I didn't know that some do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In theory yes, but the card reader I have used does not. I didn't know that some do.

What network does it use? I seem to recall that Three no longer has the 2G fallback contract with EE and so can't fail back to 2G.

 

[najaB]

What network does it use? I seem to recall that Three no longer has the 2G fallback contract with EE and so can't fail back to 2G.

I'm not sure to be honest, I only used it occasionally when I was covering someone's shift. I presumed that using 3/4G was something that the banks had insisted on in the way that they do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure to be honest, I only used it occasionally when I was covering someone's shift. I presumed that using 3/4G was something that the banks had insisted on in the way that they do.

As there's no security difference between the "generations", just speed, I doubt it.

 

[najaB]

As there's no security difference between the "generations"...

Erm... There is. Yes, they both use relatively weak algorithms, but UTMS/LTE use a 128 bit key where plain-Jane GSM uses 64 (actually 54 in many implementations).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Erm... There is. Yes, they both use relatively weak algorithms, but UTMS/LTE use a 128 bit key where plain-Jane GSM uses 64 (actually 54 in many implementations).

I stand corrected (didn't think either was encrypted at that level), but this makes no practical difference if you're using SSL/TLS over it, though, it only makes a practical difference if you are using cleartext.

 

[island]

Any mobile device can fall back to 2G (EDGE) or even what you might term 1G (GPRS) if it doesn't have a better option.

If we’re being technical, EDGE is 2.5G, GPRS is 2G, with 1G being dial-up over a cellular connection... but I fear we’re (a) quibbling over things that were only retrospectively labelled anyway and (b) drifting off-topic.

 

[najaB]

...but this makes no practical difference if you're using SSL/TLS over it, though, it only makes a practical difference if you are using cleartext.

I agree. But... *sigh* ...older card machines don't use SSL/TLS - they don't use IP at all actually - rather they use X.25. This was because it was possible to use the D-channel of a ISDN circuit for card transactions while leaving the B-channel(s) free for voice.

So GSM GPRS actually has a X.25 emulation mode (or at least it did, not sure what the technical status of it is these days) precisely to allow for things like portable card payment terminals, which is why on some older terminals it will say "Dialling...Connecting...Connected" every time you take a payment. Though I'm pretty sure these days most of them (if they do still use X.25 at the bank end) are using X.25 emulated over TCP/IP using a GSM carrier. Very simple.

I agree though with @island, this is getting way off topic.

 

[Dai Corner]

Turning back towards the topic of the thread, my heating engineer has a portable card machine that only seems to do GPRS so it must be pretty old. I should have asked how long he'd been using it.

My suggestion that he get a new one was received in the same manner as his that I really needed a new boiler.

 

[najaB]

My suggestion that he get a new one was received in the same manner as his that I really needed a new boiler.

I wonder what percentage of transactions are under the contactless limit? If he's only doing fitting work then likely not much, but if he also sells bits and bobs (e.g. TRVs) then it might be worth it just to make those transactions simpler.

 

[najaB]

Agreed, which is why it makes me unhappy when I find that retailers/merchants incorrectly have their terminals configured not to accept it for any amount, as for that reason (and because my phone is much quicker to get out than a card) I would prefer to use it for all transactions.

For the first time in a *long* time I tried to spend over the contactless limit in Tesco yesterday and couldn't pay with Google Pay - it didn't even let me try and insisted I had to use chip+PIN. I'm sure this is a change from how they were configured before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the first time in a *long* time I tried to spend over the contactless limit in Tesco yesterday and couldn't pay with Google Pay - it didn't even let me try and insisted I had to use chip+PIN. I'm sure this is a change from how they were configured before.

Now you mention it I *think* Tesco was one of the ones where I'd had an issue.

 

[najaB]

Now you mention it I *think* Tesco was one of the ones where I'd had an issue.

It's an annoying misconfiguration, they shouldn't have a preset limit - for one thing I might be using a foreign-issued contactless card with a completely different limit.

 

[underbank]

Any mobile device can fall back to 2G (EDGE) or even what you might term 1G (GPRS) if it doesn't have a better option.

Some places don't even have a mobile signal for phone/text!

 

[najaB]

Some places don't even have a mobile signal for phone/text!

Again, while this is true of some places, the major mobile networks cover over 99% of the land mass of the UK for 2G/3G and vanishingly close to 100% of populated places.

That is, naturally, not the same thing as saying that all phones/devices will be able to connect to the Internet or make a call as poor connection quality is as often due to deficiencies in the device as it is with network coverage. I've experienced this personally using the same SIM card in two different mobile broadband dongles in the same location - one was barely able to maintain an EDGE signal and regularly fell back to GPRS while the other maintained a steady HSDPA lock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some places don't even have a mobile signal for phone/text!

They don't, but how many businesses in that situation don't have a landline? It's going to be very, very close to 0.

 

[najaB]

They don't, but how many businesses in that situation don't have a landline? It's going to be very, very close to 0.

And those that don't could likely connect to the mobile network by investing in an external antenna and internal repeater, rather than relying on the tiny antenna in a mobile handset.

 

[Dai Corner]

I wonder what percentage of transactions are under the contactless limit? If he's only doing fitting work then likely not much, but if he also sells bits and bobs (e.g. TRVs) then it might be worth it just to make those transactions simpler.

Probably zero, but I was thinking about data security rather than convenience.

 

[philjo]

My Dad phoned our local Newsagents this morning wanting to pay for the daily paper delivered each day. They could not take card payments over the phone, though they do take cards at the counter in the shop. But they were happy to receive a cheque. So I took a cheque round when I went out for my Boris walk this afternoon...

 

[Mojo]

My Dad phoned our local Newsagents this morning wanting to pay for the daily paper delivered each day. They could not take card payments over the phone, though they do take cards at the counter in the shop. But they were happy to receive a cheque. So I took a cheque round when I went out for my Boris walk this afternoon...

Ordered a Chinese last week (via the take-a-way’s own website as to avoid the higher prices and fees charged on “Just Eat”); I was expecting a payment on the last screen to put in my credit card details but on submission I just got a screen saying thanks for my order, please pay £18 cash on delivery!

A quick raid on the piggy bank and my wallet and I was able to find a fiver and some coins to pay the operative when he turned up 20 mins later!

 

[HLE]

It won't be the end, the same that cheques are still quite common in business. Cash usage will continue to fall, just like cheques did.

However large sports and entertainment venues are already taking the plunge and going cashless. The roll out will continue, businesses and their directors have realised you'll have little to no variances with card compared to cash, less cashier costs, no courier costs (G4S etc) and you'll usually get a better rate from the merchant providers if your card takings increase. (Worldpay etc.) It's win-win except those that have had a career in cash handling.
No need for security to protect those counting the soddin cash at large events either. (Did it years ago for two nights at a concert, because I was constantly told how hard it was, and within a year the place was largely cashless - well I solved the problem didn't I?)

The supermarkets will be the next to do it, albeit some years away yet. That'll be the biggest change if the older generation have to pay with plastic.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are some branches of supermarkets in London that are already card only - typically the ‘Metro’ size versions in the busy areas, where throughput is quicker with card only self service tills than any other form of till.

 

[najaB]

There are some branches of supermarkets in London that are already card only - typically the ‘Metro’ size versions in the busy areas, where throughput is quicker with card only self service tills than any other form of till.

Are they completely cashless or mostly cashless? I ask because I've seen a few where there is a manual checkout (for selling cigarettes, alcohol and lottery) but it's often not manned unless a customer goes over to use it.