Coventry to Leicester direct - but how?

[The Planner]

None of it would ever need 4 tracking, how many trains are people expecting?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Coventry and Leicester are cities, so one would think that, if the line were re-joined, an inter-city service would be justified...

You don't automatically get (or need) 'intercity' services just because a line connects two cities though. You generally need quite a few cities, and often a London terminus...

 

[snowball]

You don't automatically get (or need) 'intercity' services just because a line connects two cities though. You generally need quite a few cities, and often a London terminus...

St Asaph to St David's would be interesting.

No rail connection at present but somebody might campaign for it.

 

[pt_mad]

Just an idea, and I doubt it would be done, but what about if a small curved chord was built leading off from the "Nuneaton North Chord" and curving around 250 degrees to the left and leading back onto the up chord from Birmingham which leads back into either platform 1 or 2 at Nuneaton (according to the maps on opentraintimes.)

That would allow ex Leicester trains to pass through Nuneaton platform 7 before continuing over the flyover, then taking the Nuneaton North Chord, before taking the hyperthetical spur chord off to the left on a curve of 250ish degrees, and joining onto the old up chord line which trains coming in from Birmingham prior to WCML remodelling used to use. This up chord would then lead the train into Nuneaton station into either platform 1 or 2 for a station call. Then the train could then proceed conventionally on to Coventry as it would today.


Likewise, a train coming from Coventry could call at Nuneaton in either platform 1 or 2, and then could proceed out of the station via the Up Nuneaton Chord (which trains to/from Birmingham used to use), and then would take the hyperthetical spur chord off to the right for a 250 degree right hand curve, then joining back onto the up line from Birmingham which then leads over the flyover into platform 7 at Nuneaton where the train would pass through and onto Leicester.

Thoughts?

 

[HLE]

Cost would be extortionate - and I’m not sure there is enough room. There’s a nearby river and it’s near a quarry.

Definitely not worth it. Once the second shuttle on the Coventry branch is up and running it may see an improvement in connection times.

Even without any connection time you’re still looking at 45 minutes journey time just because of infrastructure.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I disagree, if this ever was a serious suggestion, an extra chord off the new chord should an option along with reinstating the old dive under. Can't see it happening though.

 

[The Planner]

You would build the underpass, the loop is barking mad and would cost a fortune. Nuneaton North Chord is only signalled in the down direction anyway and you would have to go wrong road through P7 at Nuneaton in the down like the freight has to.

 

[pt_mad]

You would build the underpass, the loop is barking mad and would cost a fortune. Nuneaton North Chord is only signalled in the down direction anyway and you would have to go wrong road through P7 at Nuneaton in the down like the freight has to.

If the points leading into the underpass on the Leicester side (of the WCML) were of a triangle ish formation, couldn't trains go into Nuneaton on platform 6 and do a reversal and into the underpass line and on to Coventry?

That way they would retain a Nuneaton call, if needed, whilst still doing the move via the new underpass to Coventry.

 

[snowball]

If the points leading into the underpass on the Leicester side (of the WCML) were of a triangle ish formation, couldn't trains go into Nuneaton on platform 6 and do a reversal and into the underpass line and on to Coventry?

That way they would retain a Nuneaton call, if needed, whilst still doing the move via the new underpass to Coventry.

Have you looked at the site on a map? To form a triangle you'd need a curve many times sharper than would ever be tolerated on a passenger railway.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No it (Nuneaton) isn't. The populations are:
- Coventry 350,000 (see Wikipedia or Coventry City Council website)
- Leicester 329,000 (Wikipedia)
- Nuneaton 70,000 (Wikipedia)

I fear looking at the populations of Coventry and Leicester isn't that relevant because neither city has any kind of rail network within the city. Basically both cities have just one main rail station, plus a couple of infrequently served minor stations. That means the potential market for rail travel between Leicester and Coventry isn't going to be related so much to the total populations, but more like, to the population that lives or works within easy reach of either main station. That's a much smaller market.

I also don't think avoiding Nuneaton is viable, because Nuneaton offers both a significant intermediate stop and major interchange potential That interchange potential is likely to become even more important when HS2 arrives, since I'd expect to result of HS2 to be more Virgin trains stopping at Nuneaton (and similar stations).

For that reason, I imagine a better route to go would be to campaign for frequency increases Coventry-Nuneaton, and Nuneaton-Leicester - say to at least 3tph each, along with campaigning to open a few more stations along the existing rail lines in both towns - ideally to get some kind of urban metro service within Coventry and within Leicester (which itself would require infrastructure improvements). Doing that would give you a reasonable interchange time at Nuneaton for Coventry-Leicester passengers, as well as opening up rail to a greater proportion of the population of Coventry and Nuneaton. Once you have achieved that, then you could look at whether a direct service would be viable. However, even then I'm a little sceptical, partly because it would certainly require an expensive grade-separated crossing at Nuneaton, and partly because I'd expect most demand would be for any additional Leicester-Nuneaton services to run through to Birmingham, which would make diverting them to Coventry look a pretty bad idea.

 

[Mordac]

How about constructing a Tamworth style interchange at Nuneaton with a high level and a low level station (but with more pleasant passenger facilities than Tamworth)?

 

[70014IronDuke]

How about constructing a Tamworth style interchange at Nuneaton with a high level and a low level station (but with more pleasant passenger facilities than Tamworth)?

££££££££££££££
and more ££££££££
More chance of the Conway Valley line being made fit for ..... well, made fit.

It might have been a good idea had the MR + LNWR started off that way, but too late now.

 

[edwin_m]

A Tamworth solution at Nuneaton would have to be further south to allow through Coventry-Nuneaton trains to stop without reversing, and in that position Birmingham trains wouldn't be able to call without reversal. The Birmingham trains are more important than any Coventry service would be, and the existing station provides interchange with these trains without them crossing the WCML on the flat.

 

[OverSpeed]

There was a thread a year or so ago (maybe to do with nuckle), more or less along the same lines of this thread in regards to potentially running a through service from Coventry to leicester.

From what i recall, where the dive under used to go, there is a substation that is now in the way all thanks to wcml upgrade plan from the last few years (I might be wrong though) which i guess would cost a lot of cash to re-site and reinstate, and i think i got the crayons out and suggested re-opening the weddington line, and adding a loop/diveunder to somehow magically join up with Platform 1, just north of the station!

Somehow i could not see it happening at all, most likely local councillors having some pie in the sky moments, they should just concentrate on upgrading the Nuneaton to Coventry Service and take it from there!

 

[Class 170101]

How far south is the actual route of the (now missing) chord? Would it be possible to build a platform on it and link it to the main station?

 

[snowball]

How far south is the actual route of the (now missing) chord? Would it be possible to build a platform on it and link it to the main station?

See for yourself, it's here on the 1:25k map:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=436980&Y=291650&A=Y&Z=115

It's where the little long thin lake-like object is shown under the main line. So it's about 500m from the station.

 

[bnsf734]

The bridge on the old chord south of the station has been recently used to run high voltage feeder cables under the main line from a large substation near the site of the former signal box. To move this installation would add a significant cost to any new works.

Nuneaton North Chord cost in the region of £32 million a few years ago so any new chords would cost a much larger sum and the land is not available anyway to build a reversing chord - there is a river, and quarry in the way, and the lines are too close to build a connecting curve.

As a local I cannot see a simple way to effect a reversal at Nuneaton without crossing the WCML on the level, which I cannot see being allowed given the large sums spent on creating platforms 6 & 7 and the North chord.

Change at Nuneaton for Coventry seems the best option, but increase the service frequencies on the Nuneaton - Coventry and Leicester - Birmingham routes is where the traffic is. Try getting a seat from Nuneaton to Birmingham at even off peak times.... Standing room only in my experience.

 

[Accura]

Change at Nuneaton for Coventry seems the best option, but increase the service frequencies on the Nuneaton - Coventry and Leicester - Birmingham routes is where the traffic is. Try getting a seat from Nuneaton to Birmingham at even off peak times.... Standing room only in my experience.

Agreed. I live in Hinckley and it is quite often standing room only on the Birmingham trains. I would be more than happy with 30 min frequency on both the Birmingham-Leicester and Coventry-Nuneaton line.

 

[MarkyT]

See for yourself, it's here on the 1:25k map:
It's where the little long thin lake-like object is shown under the main line. So it's about 500m from the station.

More like 650m in a straight line from the southern extremity of the existing station platforms.

The bridge on the old chord south of the station has been recently used to run high voltage feeder cables under the main line from a large substation near the site of the former signal box. To move this installation would add a significant cost to any new works.

Looking at various aerial photo sources, there is some kind of narrow culvert or underpass through the main line embankment approximately on the line of the old chord, but I don't believe it is the old bridge structure and would in my opinion be neither tall nor wide enough to take even a single track today.



There are concrete troughs passing through the underpass which may be associated with electrification or signalling. they were not there in 2006 but appear new in this Google Earth image from 2010. I believe that corresponds with the latest resignalling date for the area.



The large substation to the east of the station appears on later images with additional new cabling troughs parallel to the main line passing by the east portal of the culvert but not going though it.

The original WCML bridge passed over a pair of tracks on the chord, which is shown not connected at its western end on this 1920s OS map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/115633182#zoom=5&lat=4159&lon=12192&layers=BT

As a local I cannot see a simple way to effect a reversal at Nuneaton without crossing the WCML on the level, which I cannot see being allowed given the large sums spent on creating platforms 6 & 7 and the North chord.

Agreed today but perhaps post HS2 in a decade or so when many of the long distance non-stops will have been diverted to the new line it might be more practical.

Change at Nuneaton for Coventry seems the best option, but increase the service frequencies on the Nuneaton - Coventry and Leicester - Birmingham routes is where the traffic is. Try getting a seat from Nuneaton to Birmingham at even off peak times.... Standing room only in my experience.

This is the most practical solution. An idea I had was to divert stopping LM Trent Valley services via Coventry, then work limited stop to London as now. This would have the advantages of linking the towns along the route to a local large city as well as increasing the number of fast trains between London and Coventry in the post HS2 world. It would incresase the number of trains between Coventry and Nuneaton for onward connection to Leicester etc. These trains would have to cross the up fast in the down direction at Nuneaton clearly. Electrification of the link between Nuneaton and Coventry would also be required.

If a south chord was restored for Coventry - Leicester (with a new underpass bridge), then instead of having a very isolated addition platform situated on the chord perhaps a second station for Nuneaton could be constructed on the branch just Coventry side of the chord junction on Church Street. Fast Leicester trains could call there to serve the town (about 400m walk from Church Street bridge to the library), while local stopping trains going on to the WCML station could call at both.

 

[pt_mad]

What about run a Leicester to Coventry service via Nuneaton, Coleshill and through Washwood Heath onto the Stour Valley line and to Coventry via Marston Green and Birmingham International?

Fair dues journey time would be poor but what about connectivity? It would link Leicester to Birmingham Airport and a the NEC. And if connections were missed at Nuneaton this could be a better option and at least offer a direct service?

 

[The Planner]

In other words, get on a train to New St and change for one to the Airport? Going via Sutton Park, Walsall and Aston would take longer than changing.

 

[pt_mad]

In other words, get on a train to New St and change for one to the Airport? Going via Sutton Park, Walsall and Aston would take longer than changing.

Oh right. Is there not a link/chord between the down from derby and the Coventry bound stour valley line?

Wasn't sure, presumed there was?

 

[edwin_m]

Oh right. Is there not a link/chord between the down from derby and the Coventry bound stour valley line?

Wasn't sure, presumed there was?

No, they just cross each other with no connecting curve in any direction.

 

[azz7008]

"Coventry to Leicester rail link won't arrive any time soon, says campaigner"

A rail campaigner has said plans for a valuable direct link between Coventry and Leicester will not be up and running any time soon.

The connection, proposed under a multi-million plan to restore a disused line, would slash commuting time and end the need to change at Nuneaton.

Council, business and industry chiefs estimate the route would provide an economic benefit of between £25million and £65million a year and help with the roll-out of HS2, scheduled to begin in 2026.

However Michael Tombs, of Coventry Rail Action Group, doesn’t believe commuters will be jumping on the route in the near future.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-leicester-rail-link-wont-13991848

Seems it's off the cards for a while?

 

[70014IronDuke]

There was a Nottingham-Coventry service that was finished because of the WCML route modernisation. It crossed the WCML on the level and reversed in Nuneaton.

Rob

Indeed - a travesty of justice enacted to save money. WCML passenger benefitted - while Coventry - Leicester - Notts missed out.
Reading peoples' more expert contributions on here, it seems a tough one to get back.
Certainly changing trains at Nuneaton is a barrier for many ordinary folk - but if Nuneaton - Coventry could become 2 TPH, especially with one onward to Leamington, it would be much better.

Also, looking at the ORR figures, every station on the Brum - Leicester line showed a decent increase last year, including S Wigston (75,000 to 80,000) and even near-orphaned Water Orton (45,900 to 51,700) - I've rounded those numbers out - neither of which enjoy a particularly good service (both are sort of 1 train every two hours - but Water ORton misses out on some).

Reports in here say the Brum services are overcrowded. Would be be possible to find paths, if stock becaime available, to make this service 3 trains per hour, with two doing most but not all stops (to give each station a minimum of 1 TPH), plus the fast to Stansted as now? That would also better serve Leicester-Coventry connections - not as good as a through service, but not too bad.

 

[Qwerty133]

Indeed - a travesty of justice enacted to save money. WCML passenger benefitted - while Coventry - Leicester - Notts missed out.
Reading peoples' more expert contributions on here, it seems a tough one to get back.
Certainly changing trains at Nuneaton is a barrier for many ordinary folk - but if Nuneaton - Coventry could become 2 TPH, especially with one onward to Leamington, it would be much better.

Also, looking at the ORR figures, every station on the Brum - Leicester line showed a decent increase last year, including S Wigston (75,000 to 80,000) and even near-orphaned Water Orton (45,900 to 51,700) - I've rounded those numbers out - neither of which enjoy a particularly good service (both are sort of 1 train every two hours - but Water ORton misses out on some).

Reports in here say the Brum services are overcrowded. Would be be possible to find paths, if stock becaime available, to make this service 3 trains per hour, with two doing most but not all stops (to give each station a minimum of 1 TPH), plus the fast to Stansted as now? That would also better serve Leicester-Coventry connections - not as good as a through service, but not too bad.

I don't know whether the paths could be found but to me if the rumours are true that the new West Midlands franchise are wanting to expand their operating area it would seem a much better idea for services to continue through New Street to Leicester rather than going on to Cardiff by a very indirect route.

 

[nuneatonmark]

There was a proposal in a recent route utilisation study to extend Hereford service to Nuneaton or Leicester. This made a huge amount of sense. Increases desperately needed capacity between Leicester and Birmingham and means Hereford services don't block platforms at New Street as well as greatly increased connectivity. A lot of places were impacted negatively by the WCML upgrade. Nuneaton, Lichfield, Tamworth, Milton Keynes and Watford all lost services, Rugby to a degree too. As I cannot see direct Coventry to Leicester services anytime soon it would be better to focus on increasing Coventry to Nuneaton to 3 trains an hour (we might eventually get 2 trains an hour next year), and 3 trains between Nuneaton and Leicester, one of which would be great if it went to Nottingham. maybe extending the Hereford services there?

 

[sonic2009]

When the Hereford services went to Nottingham under Central Trains, the performance was poor, hence the reason it was split again. IMO i don't think extending the Hereford services to Leicester would be great, and do West Midlands Railway have enough units? I personally think that eventually the Hereford services will go to Moor Street via the Camp Hill line when that plan evolves. Let's wait and see.

 

[Qwerty133]

When the Hereford services went to Nottingham under Central Trains, the performance was poor, hence the reason it was split again. IMO i don't think extending the Hereford services to Leicester would be great, and do West Midlands Railway have enough units? I personally think that eventually the Hereford services will go to Moor Street via the Camp Hill line when that plan evolves. Let's wait and see.

While the number of units would be a problem for the first couple of years once all the new coaches are delivered there should be more than enough units. Personally I'd be looking at keeping reasonably long turnaround times at both Leicester and Hereford to try and keep trains making their path at New Street but if this can be achieved the Hereford service being extended to Leicester would actually be a very good solution to the lack of capacity.
In fact this could be combined with the transfer of South Wigston, Narborough and Hinckley stations to WMT so that the station operator has an incentive to provide a decent standard of facilities at these stations that are currently being neglected.

 

[whhistle]

Sorry to bump this up again but I suppose I should half eat my hat.

I was told BBC Radio Leicester reported this morning (at about 07:30 into the 06:00 Jo Hayward show - search online) about a proposal to build a dive-under around Nuneaton so train services between Leicester and Coventry can be restored with ease.

The group behind the thinking has suggested funding is already in place and the line could be open by 2020. There was also thoughts this could add two more services between Leicester and Birmingham.

I have no links or articles online and am not in a position to check out the group's website: https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/

Interestingly, it seems to be a Network West Midlands company.