Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[HLE]

It'd be suprising if it wasn't the engine itself. They've already gone through 2 before this happened!

Top marks to shooter - he'll get to the bottom of it. http://railtube.info/2017/01/class-230-fire-incident-update-vivarail/

 

[WatcherZero]

Speculation is never pointless. It is the very nature of The Scientific Method.
Observe, hypothesise, test, refine hypotheses.

 

[coppercapped]

It'd be suprising if it wasn't the engine itself. They've already gone through 2 before this happened!

Is that confirmed or only hearsay?

And if it is 'the engine' - which bit went 'twang...'?

 

[HLE]

Is that confirmed or only hearsay?

And if it is 'the engine' - which bit went 'twang...'?

Well Vivarail are hardly going to confirm it are they? All I know is the unit was 'apparently' having issues with its engines before Christmas.

As for the second bit - I've heard coolant failure was the reason for one of the failures before Christmas.

Another bit of interesting news - apparently the funding for the trial on the Nuneaton branch has a deadline of April 5th - so if it's not in use by then the West Mids authority funding the trial loses the DFT funding .
Not one for disclaimers but some of the above *may* be slightly inaccurate.

 

[randyrippley]

would grandfather rights allow rebuilt engines from retired Pacers to be used in these old units?

 

[TrainfanBen]

Losing DfT funding would be a slap in the face at this stage.
Do these sort of initiatives normally have room for negotiation?

Also, I couldn't help but update my signature...

 

[43021HST]

Losing DfT funding would be a slap in the face at this stage.
Do these sort of initiatives normally have room for negotiation?

Also, I couldn't help but update my signature...

Anything that's a governmental decision usually has room for negotiation. Often the initial deadline, is more of a hint to say, 'get your skates on'. A classic example is how long it took to phase out slam doors, we had deadline, after deadline ...

I haven't had the time to scan through the previous 300+ pages in this thread, but before the engine fire does anyone know roughly if the D train could be said to be close to being launched into public service?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I haven't had the time to scan through the previous 300+ pages in this thread, but before the engine fire does anyone know roughly if the D train could be said to be close to being launched into public service?

Is it not the case that the Class 230 still is in its official testing period and as such cannot enter into service?

 

[43021HST]

Is it not the case that the Class 230 still is in its official testing period and as such cannot enter into service?

Hmm I probably worded that badly, I was wondering if it was at a stage, before the fire, to be considered to commence public testing at some point in the future, or if a timescale for it had been announced.

 

[A0wen]

What I don't understand is why go for an engine type that's untried in rail applications, if you're trying to design a train that's cost effective.

Take that line of reasoning to its logical conclusion and trains would still be steam powered.

The reality is many modern diesel engines are designed for multiple uses i.e. not just 'road' or 'transport' - which makes perfect sense.

I don't believe the use here of this particular engine is any more demanding than it is in a Ford Transit for example - if anything it's likely to be much less demanding, in a less exposed position. After all if you've seen how most Transits get driven with the engine undertaking mechanical drive you'll recognise the point I'm making.

 

[D365]

I haven't had the time to scan through the previous 300+ pages in this thread, but before the engine fire does anyone know roughly if the D train could be said to be close to being launched into public service?

Is it not the case that the Class 230 still is in its official testing period and as such cannot enter into service?

However I believe it was planned for the twelve month trial to begin in the coming weeks.

 

[keith1879]

Looking at the WNXX debate, and bearing in mind I'm no expert in this field, but some doubts are not about the engine running at full revs but the cycle of acceleration / deceleration that might introduce different stresses on the engine compared to a van on a motorway. Some have also suggested that modifications have been made to the engine to allow it to power the traction unit, and that these as well could be contributing towards the issue that 230001 had.

Of course all this is pre-guessing what actually happened, but I’d imagine using a basic design of engine, fitting it into a different environment from it’s original design spec (with potentially additional mods), with different running cycles could expose a stress that causes such failures that nobody had previously imagined. I think the fact that this modular engine block hasn’t just been swapped out on site means that VR are concerned that there could be a more complex issue at hand that needs further investigation.

Whatever the reason, it is clear 230001 won’t be back in testing for a bit which is eating into the time they have to prove the concept, let alone sell it to companies preparing bids for franchises.

I've just checked back to the 1954 archives for this forum and it turns out that there is a crazy proposal to take the high revving engines out of a naval patrol boat and mount them in a locomotive. It's amazing that English Electric have associated themselves with such a plan.
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Is it not the case that the Class 230 still is in its official testing period and as such cannot enter into service?

It was close to being launched into public service - not now of course.

 

[Mordac]

Indeed, has the engine choice for the new Caf DMUs and Stadler bi-modes been confirmed yet?

Well the Stadler ones won't be underfloor, so that would make things easier for them.

 

[BestWestern]

Why do you think that adequate ventilation is not provided?

Presumably the engine has a radiator unit mounted nearby? It's a fair question though; in a vehicle with a forward mounted rad, there is indeed significant airflow through the grille, which provides the main cooling function. This, of course, is why a fan is fitted which will cut in if the airflow is inadequate (when stood in traffic, etc). If you take the same engine and the same cooling equipment and mount it in a position where the air is passing by, but not through, it is likely to hinder the cooling process. Does a normal DMU have a radiator fan? Or is the cooling system designed to function without one? I honestly don't know. An HST power car certainly has an enormous fan mounted in the roof, and a hell of a noise it makes too, but as for humble DMUs I'm not sure. One would assume VR modified the set-up accordingly; or did they? If the fan was running relentlessly for example, it isn't impossible that the motor could overheat and burn out?

Of course I have absolutely no idea what caused the fire, very probably nothing to do with the cooling. It was an interesting point though!

 

[Bantamzen]

I've just checked back to the 1954 archives for this forum and it turns out that there is a crazy proposal to take the high revving engines out of a naval patrol boat and mount them in a locomotive. It's amazing that English Electric have associated themselves with such a plan.

As I said, the discussion over on WNXX is not my field, but just because an engine works in one type of veichle does not mean that it can easily be functioned to operate in another. The general assumption was that these engines would be suitable to power the traction on the 230s, but reading the mentioned thread VR have already used up a couple of engines in a relitvely small number of miles, with one seemingly giving up in flames. Problems always occur when developing a new product, but the engines themselves are tried and tested, with millions, maybe billions of miles under them. It is not without possbility that they, or their mountings, or any adaptations to them are proving to be problematic which might mean a complete rethink of the power units used.

But whatever the issue, the clock is running. Even though timescales and deadlines slip, the patience of TOCs / DfT does not last forever. The 230 project is already a long way behind their oringinal timescales, and with only one, for now unuseable unit they are not exactly setting pulses running (with perhaps the exception of the board at VR), and not exactly covering themselves in media glory. Strangely enough, some members here predicted as much.....

 

[kieron]

As much as it is unlikely that any Class 230 units will be seen north of the border, I don't believe that the Borders Line shares much track with the East Coast line.

It's about 3 miles from where the eastbound speed limit on the south line goes over 60 according to the SA, so no, it wouldn't be a long way along the ECML.

 

[DelW]

Presumably the engine has a radiator unit mounted nearby? It's a fair question though; in a vehicle with a forward mounted rad, there is indeed significant airflow through the grille, which provides the main cooling function. This, of course, is why a fan is fitted which will cut in if the airflow is inadequate (when stood in traffic, etc). If you take the same engine and the same cooling equipment and mount it in a position where the air is passing by, but not through, it is likely to hinder the cooling process. Does a normal DMU have a radiator fan? Or is the cooling system designed to function without one? I honestly don't know. An HST power car certainly has an enormous fan mounted in the roof, and a hell of a noise it makes too, but as for humble DMUs I'm not sure. One would assume VR modified the set-up accordingly; or did they? If the fan was running relentlessly for example, it isn't impossible that the motor could overheat and burn out?

Given the lengths of time that many DMUs and locos spend stationary with the engine(s) running, I would expect that they would all have fan-cooled radiators. As on modern cars, the fan need not be kept running all the time.

I have a slight work involvement with diesel-powered standby generators, located either in buildings or in enclosures similar to shipping containers (for ease of transport and handling). These have no 'natural' airflow and it is certainly possible to provide adequate cooling systems for extended running if needed (as they could be required to run at or close to full power for some hours or even a few days in the event of supply grid failure).

 

[WatcherZero]

Anything that's a governmental decision usually has room for negotiation. Often the initial deadline, is more of a hint to say, 'get your skates on'. A classic example is how long it took to phase out slam doors, we had deadline, after deadline ...

I haven't had the time to scan through the previous 300+ pages in this thread, but before the engine fire does anyone know roughly if the D train could be said to be close to being launched into public service?

They were expected before the incident to receive passenger certification first week of Feb. The trial that Centro had contracted them to operate with a DFT grant was for 12 months from last November till the end of October when the franchise ends (obviously even before they wernt meeting the contractual start date). Centro is only paying a peppercorn lease which is commercially sensitive but believed to be £500 a month plus fuel.

 

[bnsf734]

I saw some photos on Facebook tonight of the 230 in Coventry yard now sporting a centre car covered in grafitti on one side! Also mentioned in the facebook post that the couplers on the 230 cars are higher than they were in LUL days so they are unable to be coupled to anything else, making removal by rail tricky...

 

[D60]

I saw some photos on Facebook tonight of the 230 in Coventry yard now sporting a centre car covered in grafitti on one side! Also mentioned in the facebook post that the couplers on the 230 cars are higher than they were in LUL days so they are unable to be coupled to anything else, making removal by rail tricky...

Apparently 3in spacers have been inserted in the bogie mountings, so the car bodies sit higher than before... No idea what coupling provision has been made for a situation such as this, though..

 

[D365]

I saw some photos on Facebook tonight of the 230 in Coventry yard now sporting a centre car covered in grafitti on one side! Also mentioned in the facebook post that the couplers on the 230 cars are higher than they were in LUL days so they are unable to be coupled to anything else, making removal by rail tricky...

Apparently 3in spacers have been inserted in the bogie mountings, so the car bodies sit higher than before... No idea what coupling provision has been made for a situation such as this, though..

The on-board emergency coupler adaptors?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Another bit of interesting news - apparently the funding for the trial on the Nuneaton branch has a deadline of April 5th - so if it's not in use by then the West Mids authority funding the trial loses the DFT funding .

If you go to the Vivarail web site and look at the most recent article in their "News" section, which talks about the fire-related incident, you will see that Vivarail state that the trial on the Coventry to Nuneaton line has now been postponed.

 

[D60]

If you go to the Vivarail web site and look at the most recent article in their "News" section, which talks about the fire-related incident, you will see that Vivarail state that the trial on the Coventry to Nuneaton line has now been postponed.

Well yep, that would be due to the trial unit currently being unavailable due to fire damage.. requiring investigation, and rectification in such a way that future failures of this kind are mitigated against... Makes sense in such a circumstance to make it clear that commencement into public service has been postponed.. in case there was any doubt (!)

 

[HLE]

If you go to the Vivarail web site and look at the most recent article in their "News" section, which talks about the fire-related incident, you will see that Vivarail state that the trial on the Coventry to Nuneaton line has now been postponed.

Postponed yes but most definitely still going ahead.

 

[adrock1976]

Without deviating away from the main discussion too much, could some the former LU stock be used in its original form i.e. juice rail power supply be used for the local all stations stopping services along South Eastern Railway metals?

My thinking behind this is that it would allow some Class 465/466s to be sent away for a long overdue refurbishment.

 

[QueensCurve]

Class 230 running up and down the ECML, you say.....

When was it that the ECML suddenly had a 60mph speed restriction applied to meet that particular flight of fancy?

You wouldn't need to apply a 60mph limit as the train brings its own.

It might be difficult getting fast line paths though but.
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There's also the complication that it has been on fire - the mountings or even body and underframe may have weakening or damage. They might even find themselves having to build a new end coach - not as if they're short of them.

An issue which belatedly has been raised in relation to the fire on RMS Titanic.

 

[D365]

Without deviating away from the main discussion too much, could some the former LU stock be used in its original form i.e. juice rail power supply be used for the local all stations stopping services along South Eastern Railway metals?

My thinking behind this is that it would allow some Class 465/466s to be sent away for a long overdue refurbishment.

If older stock was proposed, the Class 319s would be far more likely, however I believe that the plan is still for Class 377s to be cascaded from Thameslink/Southern.

 

[Class 170101]

Not been confirmed but the current model of the engine used in the Turbostars is now fully compliant, would probably be a shoein since similar was used in the Irish versions of the Civity.

Is the Turbostar upto Standard? I thought the engine was only compliant to the 3A standard not 3B?

 

[Marklund]

You wouldn't need to apply a 60mph limit as the train brings its own.

It might be difficult getting fast line paths though but.
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An issue which belatedly has been raised in relation to the fire on RMS Titanic.

The Titanic fire story has been about for many a decade.

 

[edwin_m]

Without deviating away from the main discussion too much, could some the former LU stock be used in its original form i.e. juice rail power supply be used for the local all stations stopping services along South Eastern Railway metals?

My thinking behind this is that it would allow some Class 465/466s to be sent away for a long overdue refurbishment.

Aren't the D78s only allowed to use LU third rail at nominally 650V? I believe the voltage on the sub-surface lines won't be increased to the international standard of 750V, as used on most of the Southern network, until all of them have gone.