Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[theageofthetra]

How viable would a battery powered train be if you had very high rate induction chargers at each stop combined with regen brakes?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's been scraped of the old sub-surface stock?

Has all the old Met, Circle, East London and Ham & City stock already been scrapped?

What sort of % of the old District stock has been scrapped?

Even if the proposal is real, how many more years life have the bodies and bogies got left in them?

 

[Class377/5]

don't be seduced by glossy leaflets, they're cheap. Who is proposing it, do they have the money, do they have DfT/PTE/Franchise/ROSCO support?

They been talking to the DfT about it.

Even if the proposal is real, how many more years life have the bodies and bogies got left in them?

The D stock was refurbished a few years ago, not sure how much it was below the sole bar.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Has all the old Met, Circle, East London and Ham & City stock already been scrapped?

Yes. The A stock (Used on the Met and ELL before conversion) was scrapped by the end of 2012. The last C stock (Used on the Circle, H&C and District to Edgware Road) was scrapped at the start of this month.

What sort of % of the old District stock has been scrapped?

Currently no D stock has been scrapped (ever, in fact), although the eight trains of C stock used on the District have been.

Even if the proposal is real, how many more years life have the bodies and bogies got left in them?

Not much. Although the interiors were tarted up in the early 2000s, not a lot was touched below the solebar.

 

[jopsuk]

They been talking to the DfT about it.

Who is this "they"? What organisation?

 

[JamesRowden]

How viable would a battery powered train be if you had very high rate induction chargers at each stop combined with regen brakes?

Charging batteries fast damages them. Also, even with fast (and damaging) recharge, it will still take something like 12 minutes to fully recharge them. Using Supercapacitors or Fly Wheels will get around this problem, but the low energy density of these energy storage devices means that they would only be able to power the train for about 2 miles between recharge cycles (distance taken from my memory of reading the 'Alternative Solutions' RUS).

 

[plarailfan]

They would probably need some kind of safety upgrade around the cab area, as their couplings are at a lower height, than other stock, in service, on the "main line"
Maybe someone, somewhere, has the idea of running them on the Isle of Wight ?

 

[pemma]

Maybe someone, somewhere, has the idea of running them on the Isle of Wight ?

Wrong type of tube stock for Isle of Wight. Height of D78 vehicles is 3.62m not 2.87m. The latter being what IoW needs.

 

[Chris125]

Maybe someone, somewhere, has the idea of running them on the Isle of Wight ?

There are no plans to replace the current fleet at the moment, and given the likely infrastructure alterations required anything but conventional deep tube stock is highly unlikely in the foreseeable future.

Chris

 

[YorkshireTC]

Try finding someone to fund a new build of DMUs for the north? Current prices exceed £2m/vehicle and that assumes you can find someone to build them. Achieving modern emissions standards is really tough. That's why the freight operators have ordered Class 66s for delivery before the end of this year when new 66s can't be built. (Next generation engines don't fit into Class 66 bodyshells.) Few people know that the Cummins NT855R underneath Sprinters is a design from the 1960s! We didn't know what emissions were about when Litchurch Lane built 15n sets throughout the '80s. Now we have to understand these things.

 

[Boothby97]

That sounds like a neat idea.....is there a link to a website for that ?

I don't know of a website that gives any details of the Class 379 being converted, only read about it in magazines/on forums.

 

[pemma]

that assumes you can find someone to build them.

Finding someone to build new DMUs isn't an issue but finding somewhere in the UK would be. Plenty of new DMUs are being produced for other European countries but nothing in the UK since the 172s.

 

[ExRes]

As the 172s are only around 4 years old, I wonder if Bombardier still retain the necessary equipment to build more, if they were required. Presumably the emission rules would be the same as locomotives ?, allowing them to be built before the new rules come into force, construction infrastructure permitting, plus the endless tenders and meetings required of course .........

 

[starrymarkb]

Try finding someone to fund a new build of DMUs for the north? Current prices exceed £2m/vehicle and that assumes you can find someone to build them. Achieving modern emissions standards is really tough. That's why the freight operators have ordered Class 66s for delivery before the end of this year when new 66s can't be built. (Next generation engines don't fit into Class 66 bodyshells.) Few people know that the Cummins NT855R underneath Sprinters is a design from the 1960s! We didn't know what emissions were about when Litchurch Lane built 15n sets throughout the '80s. Now we have to understand these things.

Stadler do custom designs often in single digit batches and often using adapted road vehicle engines. (ie GTWs use twin MAN 300hp engines) - They are relatively low cost too. If they can adapt to the various gauges (both loading and track) and voltages (including 3 phase) of the private Swiss Railway lines, I'm sure a batch of 50 diesel units in UK size wouldn't trouble them.

 

[Emblematic]

As the 172s are only around 4 years old, I wonder if Bombardier still retain the necessary equipment to build more, if they were required. Presumably the emission rules would be the same as locomotives ?, allowing them to be built before the new rules come into force, construction infrastructure permitting, plus the endless tenders and meetings required of course .........

The stage IIIB emission rules are in force, since Jan 1st 2012. A 'flexibility scheme' allowed a limited continuation of the IIIA standard for existing designs to be put in service for a further three years, because there was a perceived lack of IIIB-compliant designs available when the standard came into force. So you could buy an existing design provided it was delivered by December 31st 2014 - hence the flurry of diesel locomotive deliveries. It's far to late for new orders now - you would have to order a complaint design (which is no bad thing really.)

 

[rebmcr]

The important question is obviously this: have whatever organisation is promoting the idea selected a prospective TOPS class?

If there indeed will be a generator car powering DC motors, then perhaps "Class 278" or "Class 678"?

 

[WatcherZero]

According to a community rail officer she attended a conference where an option was put forward to create 75 new DMUs for National Rail. The idea is adding complaint diesel engines to refurbished D78 rolling stock released from London Underground in 2016. Does anyone know anymore about this?

Obviously the D78s don't have toilets but then the Pacers and most of the Sprinters don't have toilets which meet the post-2019 requirements of being accessible and retention toilets and also the seating would need to be made suitable for whatever routes they are cascaded to.

Were you the same one who posted the rumour on one of the local rail users groups sites? They said the idea was being promoted by riva Rail which I presume was misspelt Arriva Rail.

 

[edwin_m]

As the 172s are only around 4 years old, I wonder if Bombardier still retain the necessary equipment to build more, if they were required. Presumably the emission rules would be the same as locomotives ?, allowing them to be built before the new rules come into force, construction infrastructure permitting, plus the endless tenders and meetings required of course .........

Didn't the Bombardier Aventra range include diesel and dual-mode options? I think these would have engines above the floor, as probably would any (unlikely) D78 conversion.

 

[21C101]

Converting them to diesel multiple units sounds like its heading for Shoeburyness never mind Barking.

However using them on the Self Contained Merseyrail to release 508s for cascase would make sense.

They could also be used on Southern to release dual voltage 377s from outer suburban/coastway routes and send them north. The three door a side configuration and fast acceleration would make them very useful.

 

[Domh245]

Unfortunately, even if you could cascade the 508s by introducing D stock, it would only be internal cascades! Why would anyone else want a 35 Year old, 3rd rail DC emu, other than those who have already got them.

Also, the D78 stock have got 4 doors a side, but they are single leaf and quite narrow (although probably wider than those on a 156 - could anyone give some figures about these)

The newer S stock have 3 doors per side, but I doubt TfL will be letting them go anytime soon!

 

[jrhilton]

Wow, D-Stock being converted into Diesel trains? I think I've heard it all now.

I take it the dream plan was to use a Class 55 for motive power and a DVT on the other end, oh and to fit IC70 seats along with putting a Mark 3 dining car in the middle?

Or are they going the full distance and double-heading with 4472 and 4468 on the front and DP1 on the back to round off the photo opportunity?

Almost as crazy as some of the suggestions for what to do with the class 442s.

 

[Emblematic]

Also, the D78 stock have got 4 doors a side, but they are single leaf and quite narrow (although probably wider than those on a 156 - could anyone give some figures about these)

D78 door stock width = 1127mm, Class 156 = 780mm. Narrow is relative - Class 158 doors are 835mm, C69/C77 stock 1370mm. With hindsight, the single leaf doors on the D stock were a mistake, cause extended boarding times, and contribute to their earlier than expected retirement.

 

[Bigfoot]

Wow, D-Stock being converted into Diesel trains? I think I've heard it all now.

I take it the dream plan was to use a Class 55 for motive power and a DVT on the other end, oh and to fit IC70 seats along with putting a Mark 3 dining car in the middle?

Or are they going the full distance and double-heading with 4472 and 4468 on the front and DP1 on the back to round off the photo opportunity?

Almost as crazy as some of the suggestions for what to do with the class 442s.

There should be a dream world and an actual sensible world areas of this forum.

 

[starrymarkb]

There should be a dream world and an actual sensible world areas of this forum.

Good idea!

 

[pemma]

Were you the same one who posted the rumour on one of the local rail users groups sites? They said the idea was being promoted by riva Rail which I presume was misspelt Arriva Rail.

No. The name of the person who has is the same as the person who is employed as community rail officer. If it wasn't her that posted it I'm sure the comment would not have been approved.

Not sure why Arriva would be interested at this stage unless they are proposing it for Scotrail. The post actually said Viva Rail who are a Canadian company with no UK presence!

 

[jopsuk]

the canadian company is "VIA Rail". Who does this "community rail officer" work for?

 

[route:oxford]

Wow, D-Stock being converted into Diesel trains? I think I've heard it all now.

I take it the dream plan was to use a Class 55 for motive power and a DVT on the other end, oh and to fit IC70 seats along with putting a Mark 3 dining car in the middle?

Or are they going the full distance and double-heading with 4472 and 4468 on the front and DP1 on the back to round off the photo opportunity?

Almost as crazy as some of the suggestions for what to do with the class 442s.

Well, I was thinking taking out the two centre doors and replacing them with full height glass windows.

Installing a lavatory.

Then hauling by Class 37 or 68 between Inverness and Kyle and the Far North Line.

 

[jrhilton]

Well, I was thinking taking out the two centre doors and replacing them with full height glass windows.

Good idea but I think we could take this a bit further. How about one of the coaches made into a proper observation carriage? Keep the front door for entry/exit, replace the second with glass as you say, then cut the roof off the second half for some decent catenary, signalling gantry and tunnel roof views.

D stock enthusiasts could then stand in the open air part and hold up a pantograph on an insulated broom pole and hey presto we have a D stock converted to 25kv as well.

I have a feeling D Stock could be the most flexible stock ever built at this rate.

 

[ExRes]

I believe that environmental thinking is the way forward, put a biomass burner in the centre coach, propulsion, heating and catering all taken into account and a bit of green steam coming out of the chimney pot which wouldn't hurt a fly, sorted

 

[Mark62]

have northern considered using open wagons or container trains. Then the cattle can can at least walk around around. open trucks would help Northern keep open the little used stations they want to close. The train can slow down and cattle can jump out onto the platform. Saves money. Or maybe they can do what they did when they first took over the franchise. They stopped running most trains and replaced them with buses. Of course they still got paid the full amount by taxpayers. Bring back the buses and stop running trains altogether. Nobody down South will care anyway. They make all the decisions. Excuse my sarcasm but Northern get away with things that southern TOCS would never dare do.