• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

Status
Not open for further replies.

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,456
Location
Back Cab
Hull - Bridlington/Scarbrough used to be the stomping ground of the 156s for a long time - now you are lucky if you get anything apart from 158s there - although you do get the occasional pacer working up to Brid


That is partly down to most of the scarborough services being worked by scarborough based TPE crews. They only sign 158's so 158's have to work the branch. Up to Brid however will be hull or sheffield based northern staff who will sign other units
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,339
That is partly down to most of the scarborough services being worked by scarborough based TPE crews. They only sign 158's so 158's have to work the branch. Up to Brid however will be hull or sheffield based northern staff who will sign other units

I'm not sure about "most". When we've been into this before (which matches my observations), there are 9 services between Bridlington and Scarborough in each direction on a standard weekday. Of these the first southbound is worked by Scarborough TP depot, that crew then do a Beverley shuttle and back to Hull, followed by a service back to Scarborough. Later in the day a crew work down from Scarborough, do a shuttle, followed by the last northbound from Hull to Scarborough. I make that 4 out of 18 worked by TP Scarborough, and 14 out of 18 worked by NT Hull.

Although the reasoning is spot on, Northern presumably are very, very keen not to end up in a situation where they have a rostered TP crew but nothing they sign available.
 

Roose

Member
Joined
23 May 2014
Messages
250
Darlington - Bishop Auckland
Middlesbrough - Whitby
Carlisle - Whitehaven
Blackpool South - Kirkham & Wesham
Preston - Ormskirk
Rose Grove - Colne ...
Carlisle to Whitehaven is part of the Carlisle to Barrow and Carlisle to Lancaster/Preston via Barrow services rather than a self-contained service in its own right, apart from on Sundays and that will change as the government specified Sunday Barrow to Whitehaven trains for the new Northern contract, to take effect from the December 2017 timetable change.

In any case the government has ruled out the Class 230 for the Northern routes so perhaps suggestions in the north should be for lines without a current passenger service?

As an aside it seems the new franchise will refurbish Mark 2 coaches currently being used for a number of services on this line, suggesting they may have a medium term future. I was rather hoping they would disappear quickly; although they are the best part of an unsatisfactory - one hoped temporary - 'solution' to the shortage of DMU, freeing two Sprinters for use elsewhere, the overall quality and reliability of the LHCS has been unacceptable.
 

dgl

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2014
Messages
2,414
Carlisle to Whitehaven is part of the Carlisle to Barrow and Carlisle to Lancaster/Preston via Barrow services rather than a self-contained service in its own right, apart from on Sundays and that will change as the government specified Sunday Barrow to Whitehaven trains for the new Northern contract, to take effect from the December 2017 timetable change.

In any case the government has ruled out the Class 230 for the Northern routes so perhaps suggestions in the north should be for lines without a current passenger service?

As an aside it seems the new franchise will refurbish Mark 2 coaches currently being used for a number of services on this line, suggesting they may have a medium term future. I was rather hoping they would disappear quickly; although they are the best part of an unsatisfactory - one hoped temporary - 'solution' to the shortage of DMU, freeing two Sprinters for use elsewhere, the overall quality and reliability of the LHCS has been unacceptable.

I hate to mention it, but if loco hauled operations continue into the future, could converted class 442's be an option esp. if the driving cabs could be wired to work with the locos. Completely far fetched and, due to the expected length of time the loco hauled operations continue, would never happen but I think a good use of at least a few 442's if possible.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,480
Location
Exeter
In any case the government has ruled out the Class 230 for the Northern routes so perhaps suggestions in the north should be for lines without a current passenger service?

Although not in the north, I am sure that the Class 230 would be useful on the Okehampton line. Only a little bit of 70mph track, when it is running on the section of the Tarka Line it needs to use to get to the junction. This line only has a 4tpd summer sunday service at the moment, so maybe they could be used to expand on these services.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I hate to mention it, but if loco hauled operations continue into the future, could converted class 442's be an option esp. if the driving cabs could be wired to work with the locos. Completely far fetched and, due to the expected length of time the loco hauled operations continue, would never happen but I think a good use of at least a few 442's if possible.

Yay, 442s!

To me, loco-haul makes sense on the Chiltern model, modern locomotives with quality stock on expresses - the North Wales Coast would be perfect, which could free up 158s to start a cascade. It doesn't make sense to be using clapped out old locomotives with knackered old stock on all stations stopping services. Even DB, long the home of locomotives on local trains, have largely packed that in.
 

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,197
Location
Surrey
Although not in the north, I am sure that the Class 230 would be useful on the Okehampton line. Only a little bit of 70mph track, when it is running on the section of the Tarka Line it needs to use to get to the junction. This line only has a 4tpd summer sunday service at the moment, so maybe they could be used to expand on these services.

I think that they would be suitable for all the branch lines in Cornwall and Devon, and GWR could get rid of all their pacers and 150's or 153's, plus it would mean they would have a uniform fleet too.
 

Roose

Member
Joined
23 May 2014
Messages
250
Dare I suggest that the high acceleration D-train would actually be *more* suitable for the Cumbrian Coast than Mk2 loco-hauled stock?
You dare indeed! And you may be right.

Whether you would still be marvelling at it having travelled from, say, Wigton to Grange or when stuffed to the gills between Sellafield and Millom or Workington is another question while its limited maximum speed on the WCML between Carnforth and Lancaster or Preston would be a problem.
 

martinsh

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2011
Messages
1,744
Location
Considering a move to Memphis
Dare I suggest that the high acceleration D-train would actually be *more* suitable for the Cumbrian Coast than Mk2 loco-hauled stock?

You dare indeed! And you may be right.

Whether you would still be marvelling at it having travelled from, say, Wigton to Grange or when stuffed to the gills between Sellafield and Millom or Workington is another question while its limited maximum speed on the WCML between Carnforth and Lancaster or Preston would be a problem.

Thats why I only suggested Carlisle - Whitehaven for D trains. Leave the journeys further south in hands of loco-hauled for peak loadings from Sellafield. An hourly Carlisle - Whitehaven service might not be as fast as currently, but there is very little other traffic to get in the way of !
 

MML

Member
Joined
25 Oct 2015
Messages
588
Another self-contained route would be the Marston Vale line. Replacement of the hourly service operated by 2 x Class 150/153 DMU between Bedford and Bletchley with 4 x 2-car D-trains in a 'Country Layout' would permit a 30 minute service frequency in each direction to feed both interchanges with the Midland and West Coast Main lines. Class 230 could be maintained locally at Bletchley by Vivarail.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Any solution allowing a spare DMU to be held at Bletchley would be most welcome for the Marston Vale - reliability is presently woeful as half the service gets cancelled for 4 hours every time the 153 (and I believe it normally is the 153) conks out.
 

jmbill

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2013
Messages
10
Location
South West
I think that they would be suitable for all the branch lines in Cornwall and Devon, and GWR could get rid of all their pacers and 150's or 153's, plus it would mean they would have a uniform fleet too.

Yes, the 143s and 153s are probably going to be phased out by 2020. There doesn't appear to be much interest or need for an 'ePacer'; which would still suffer from the normal pacer problems, like no frontend gangway doors for easier multiple working. The 153s have been messed about with so much over the years, that there is unlikely to be much else that can be done with them.

However GWR do seem keen on keeping their 150s. This is evident by the refurbishment and repainting that has restarted in recent months. They've obviously got long term plans for them. These units have proven to be good workhorses over the years (there's never been a period since their original introduction when they haven't operated in the south west), and I expect they'll still be going strong in many years from now.

I think a lot hinges on the cascade of 158s from Bristol, and this would determine whether GWR buys into the whole Vivarail 230 idea or not. Timescales will undoubtedly become clearer as we head into 2016.

It looks like there would be sufficient 150s and 158s to operate all regional Devon and Cornwall services, with a healthy surplus to increase some branchline services or extend onto new routes, like Tavistock or Okehampton. We could probably expect 150s on the branchlines and 158s operating the semi-fasts between Penzance and Exeter, plus Barnstaple, Exmouth, Paignton etc. Similar to how things were handled in the Wessex days.

But timing is crucial. If there are problems further up the line towards London with electrification or reliability of the new 800s, then the DMU cascade could stop and Vivarail could be in with a serious opportunity of selling lots of units to GWR; who could otherwise be heading towards a chronic DMU shortage. 2020 isn't that far away and I'm informed some units are going off-lease before then too.

If however we start to see more BSI-compatible DMUs cascaded west in 2017 and 2018, I think it's safe to say GWR will not consider running new classes of train, like the 230. They would prefer hanging onto tried and tested DMUs they've got already for all the reasons of keeping things simple, plus the flexibility of being able to diagram just about any DMU onto any route or run longer trains in multiple.

But even if GWR turn down the 320s, the new Devon / Cornwall rail franchise George Osborne hinted about a few months back MIGHT include procurement of rolling stock. If the new franchise is confirmed and has anything to do with branchlines or semi-fast stopping services on the mainline, then 230s might very well be suited. Of course, much will depend on what the government decides. We're still waiting to hear about the Dawlish decision.

I agree that 320s would certainly be suitable for many services down here and add some interest to the local rail scene. Although they're limited to 60mph and the mainline is 70mph in several places, it's important to remember that sections like Hemerdon Bank reduce ANY train down to about 30mph or less. All the intermediate station stops and additional hills mean you don't really ever get much above 60mph, anywhere west of Exeter. The section of line past Powderham and under the M5 is about as fast as you can go.

The video of the 230 posted a few pages back is impressive. Although I think I'll await full judgement, based on seeing a complete 230 set, doors in the correct place, a hill start on a gradient, in the rain, with a full load of passengers and luggage!
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
Yes, the 143s and 153s are probably going to be phased out by 2020. There doesn't appear to be much interest or need for an 'ePacer'; which would still suffer from the normal pacer problems, like no frontend gangway doors for easier multiple working. The 153s have been messed about with so much over the years, that there is unlikely to be much else that can be done with them.

GWR are supposed to release their 143s, 150/1s and 153s by 2017. However, it's rumoured the 150/1s will be going to Northern and the 153s will be going to Northern and LM.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,106
Location
Yorks
You dare indeed! And you may be right.

Whether you would still be marvelling at it having travelled from, say, Wigton to Grange or when stuffed to the gills between Sellafield and Millom or Workington is another question while its limited maximum speed on the WCML between Carnforth and Lancaster or Preston would be a problem.

So basically fine, except for not being comfortable enough for intermediate - long journeys on the route, not having enough capacity for shift changeovers at Sellafield and not being fast enough to keep up with the WCML south of Carnforth.

Ideal then.
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
405
I really hope these get put on the Barton to Cleethorpes line. Their acceleration should help improve journey time and the units could be permanently based at Cleethorpes instead of running empty. The service could even be improved to hourly and a spare unit based at Cleethorpes to improve reliability.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
So basically fine, except for not being comfortable enough for intermediate - long journeys on the route, not having enough capacity for shift changeovers at Sellafield and not being fast enough to keep up with the WCML south of Carnforth.



Ideal then.


Comfort depends what seats you fit. Capacity depends on length. As for the WCML, not all trains run past Barrow.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,106
Location
Yorks
Comfort depends what seats you fit. Capacity depends on length. As for the WCML, not all trains run past Barrow.

Realistically it's not going to be as comfortable for longer distance journeys as a 158 or 156, whatever seats you fit.

That said, they could be just the trick for Barton and St Ives. I still incline towards the e144 though.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,440
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
But even if GWR turn down the 320s, the new Devon / Cornwall rail franchise George Osborne hinted about a few months back MIGHT include procurement of rolling stock. If the new franchise is confirmed and has anything to do with branchlines or semi-fast stopping services on the mainline, then 230s might very well be suited. Of course, much will depend on what the government decides. We're still waiting to hear about the Dawlish decision.

Are you referring to the Class 320/3 that were refurbished by WABTEC between 2011 and 2013?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Realistically it's not going to be as comfortable for longer distance journeys as a 158 or 156, whatever seats you fit.


Why not? The door layout (which is end doored if you take the country variant anyway) does not predicate comfort. Ride quality and seats are the main factor.

I am not convinced the Coast needs to go via Barrow except a few key commuter services. I would rather see an hourly regular interval Manchester to Barrow with guaranteed connections, then you can use a suitable unit for each bit - high acceleration for the stopping Coast service, high quality and high top speed for the other bit. The odd few through services could be special Northern Connect extensions to Sellafield.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
Why not? The door layout (which is end doored if you take the country variant anyway) does not predicate comfort. Ride quality and seats are the main factor.

Door layout may not be as important as the seating or ride quality. However, it can make the difference between smells, noise and cold air getting in every time the train stops at a station. While newer trains like 185s do have doors which automatically close after a while it's noway near as effective as end doors separated from the saloon by internal doors.
 

Roose

Member
Joined
23 May 2014
Messages
250
Thats why I only suggested Carlisle - Whitehaven for D trains. Leave the journeys further south in hands of loco-hauled for peak loadings from Sellafield. An hourly Carlisle - Whitehaven service might not be as fast as currently, but there is very little other traffic to get in the way of !
In fact timings between Carlisle and Whitehaven may well be much the same with a D train but the government has said they aren't going to happen in the north but the idea of an additional change on the coast would be a non-starter!

Sellafield workers would really welcome missing connections from their variable-reliability LHCS at Whitehaven on their way home to Workington and points north...
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,121
I really am surprised at the number of antagonistic posts here about this train. It is the only diesel train which appears to be readily available to cover what is an embarrassing shortage of these. There is no production line currently in place for them, and even an order placed tomorrow would be quite some years to being fulfilled - and at what cost.

There's an extraordinary level of snide comments about trivia, which seems to all boil down to that they have previously worked in London, and the London-haters feel they would rather have (or, to be more precise, inflict on other travellers) nothing, gross overcrowding, zero spare stock, etc, than have a solution which is based on transferring them elsewhere. Less surprising is this childish attitude seems to have permeated through to some officials and ministers at DfT, where "I didn't think of it so it does nothing for my next promotion chances" is doubtless seen, in the usual Whitehall manner, as more important than doing anything to assist or encourage rail travel.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
I really am surprised at the number of antagonistic posts here about this train. It is the only diesel train which appears to be readily available to cover what is an embarrassing shortage of these. There is no production line currently in place for them, and even an order placed tomorrow would be quite some years to being fulfilled - and at what cost.

Vivarail have had D78 carriages in their possession for a year and to date have not produced a working multiple unit (only a single carriage) and they haven't had a D-Train cleared for mainline use, so I imagine it would be 2017 before they could get all of them converted and in service. However, there are plans in place to get new brand diesel and bi-mode trains in service with TPE and Northern between December 2017 and December 2019. While GWR and Scotrail are expected to have surplus DMUs starting in 2017 and will start releasing them to other operators. Therefore, is the cost of the D-Train effective when some of them may only be required for 12 months?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,121
I presume they are holding up spending much more money before they are surer of a market for their product. They probably did not expect (and I would not have either) this constant antagonistic approach to their train.

Regarding "ah, but in a few years there will/may be a couple of trains to spare", there is already a gross shortage of diesel trains, and passenger number increases seem to show no sign of slowing. Quite how GW can say they are going to have "surplus" DMUs before any major element of the electrification is even finished, when they have 2-car diesel units running on services from Paddington which passengers at Ealing Broadway sometimes cannot even get a foothold inside, is amazing.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,693
Location
Northwich
I presume they are holding up spending much more money before they are surer of a market for their product.

No they are working to produce a full working unit which GWR are supposed to then take on trial but apparently GWR are getting impatient and losing interest.

Quite how GW can say they are going to have "surplus" DMUs before any major element of the electrification is even finished, when they have 2-car diesel units running on services from Paddington which passengers at Ealing Broadway sometimes cannot even get a foothold inside, is amazing.

The electrification is supposed to result in the 16xs going west so that GWR won't need the 150/1s or 153s. Obviously electrification may not be finished on schedule.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,106
Location
Yorks
I really am surprised at the number of antagonistic posts here about this train. It is the only diesel train which appears to be readily available to cover what is an embarrassing shortage of these. There is no production line currently in place for them, and even an order placed tomorrow would be quite some years to being fulfilled - and at what cost.

There's an extraordinary level of snide comments about trivia, which seems to all boil down to that they have previously worked in London, and the London-haters feel they would rather have (or, to be more precise, inflict on other travellers) nothing, gross overcrowding, zero spare stock, etc, than have a solution which is based on transferring them elsewhere. Less surprising is this childish attitude seems to have permeated through to some officials and ministers at DfT, where "I didn't think of it so it does nothing for my next promotion chances" is doubtless seen, in the usual Whitehall manner, as more important than doing anything to assist or encourage rail travel.

I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment. The Thameslink electrics have also been used in London before, yet these are acknowledged as an improvement in terms of passenger environment and capacity.

There are two questions regarding the D78's. Are they an improvement in terms of comfort on the Pacers. I suspect yes for 142's, I'm not so sure for 143's and 144's, in which case, if the latter aren't being kept to improve capacity, is it worth the investment in the D78 for a straight forward, and inevitably stop-gap replacement. My view is, perhaps as an addition to enhance capacity, but not as a replacement.

Second question is in terms of suitability for longer distance journeys such as the Cumbrian Coast, and my opinion on that is no, as with 142's and single 153's.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,737
Location
Redcar
Darlington - Bishop Auckland

Isn't self-contained as the vast majority (if not all) services extend beyond Darlington to at least Middlesbrough and usually onto Saltburn (from memory I think one might go to Nunthorpe).
 

AndyW33

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2013
Messages
534
Quite how GW can say they are going to have "surplus" DMUs before any major element of the electrification is even finished, when they have 2-car diesel units running on services from Paddington which passengers at Ealing Broadway sometimes cannot even get a foothold inside, is amazing.

But the GW inner-suburban services, including through Ealing Broadway, are meant to be replaced by the Crossrail project, not the GWML electrification scheme. Crossrail isn't part of the GW franchise. As far as I know things are still on schedule for Crossrail trains to start entering service part way through 2017.
As they do, the Paddington inner-suburban DMUs start to become surplus. Indeed it will be quite impossible to operate them through the Crossrail tunnels!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
But the GW inner-suburban services, including through Ealing Broadway, are meant to be replaced by the Crossrail project, not the GWML electrification scheme. Crossrail isn't part of the GW franchise. As far as I know things are still on schedule for Crossrail trains to start entering service part way through 2017.
As they do, the Paddington inner-suburban DMUs start to become surplus. Indeed it will be quite impossible to operate them through the Crossrail tunnels!

Mark Hopwood has said he will run EMU services Paddington to Maidenhead as soon as it is wired.

They also intend to run 387s to Hayes/Harlington in time for the next timetable, by May 2016. The latter has been widely discussed in previous threads.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top