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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Mr Fizz

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230 gone from Cov Yard as of 8:30 this morning. Unless they have shunted it out of sight.
 
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A0wen

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The Class 230 does give the opportunity to deliver improved frequency services to many branch lines and to do this at a minimal cost.
Lines such as the Marston Vale which currently only has an hourly service in each direction and the Whitby to Middlesborough line with even fewer trains can only hope to improve their services with a low cost unit. I certainly hope Vivarail can help revitalised branch line services where the cost of alternative units would be prohibitively expensive.

For the umpteenth time, the Marston Vale line simply does not justify a greater than hourly frequency.

Have you ever travelled on it? Apart from a couple of morning and evening journeys when you have school children on it, the majority of daytime journeys the units are shuttling back and forward at less than 50% capacity.

The line is one of the great survivors no doubt and EWR will increase the traffic on it, but it serves half a dozen small villages in between Bedford and Bletchley - and the traffic flow end to end isn't huge either.

What the D trains do potentially offer is the ability to release a 150 and 153 to other duties, because it is a self-contained diagram. But to keep banging on about increased frequency on the line is deluded thinking.

Even if the service were extended back to MKC it still wouldn't be competitive against the X5 coach between central MK and Bedford - the coach is timed at 45 mins from central Bedford to central MK. The current all stop Bedford - Bletchley takes 43 minutes - add on 10 mins to run into MKC and even allowing for a journey acceleration you're still going to struggle to hit 45 mins.
 

Bletchleyite

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The X5, good though it is, is often hit badly by traffic, and there's the anti bus prejudice, so I think you might be surprised what extending back to MKC would do.


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For the umpteenth time, the Marston Vale line simply does not justify a greater than hourly frequency.

I can't say that I am massively familiar with the line and the possible traveling requirements, but it is well known that an hourly service is not sufficient to make people break habits and change mode. It is highly likely that a twice hourly service would become more attractive for many more people.
 

A0wen

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The X5, good though it is, is often hit badly by traffic, and there's the anti bus prejudice, so I think you might be surprised what extending back to MKC would do.


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Not true - because the X5 avoids the main traffic congestion point of the M1 and instead uses the A422, which is how it arrives in the north side of Bedford.

The simple fact is the Marston Vale line is shuttling between Bletchley (which isn't a particularly important place) and Bedford (which is a slightly more important place).

The vast majority of the rail travel to / from the Milton Keynes area is for London commuters.

Perhaps if the Marston Vale line could actually sustain a well used hourly weekday service there would be a justification for increasing it to half-hourly, but given the resource constraints, there are much, much better schemes for both LM and Network Rail to be focussed on.

Apart from the two Bedford stations and Bletchley, none of the stations manages an annual passenger usage of more than 50,000 - Long Buckby station (used as a comparison as it's also a village station) by comparison manages over 300,000.
 

Bertie the bus

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but it is well known that an hourly service is not sufficient to make people break habits and change mode. It is highly likely that a twice hourly service would become more attractive for many more people.

That is completely irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding. TOC's rolling stock costs account for about ¼ of their overall costs. So even if these 230s were significantly cheaper than anything else available, and that is certainly not a proven fact and according to some sources nowhere near the truth, it still wouldn’t result in large scale increases of services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not true - because the X5 avoids the main traffic congestion point of the M1 and instead uses the A422, which is how it arrives in the north side of Bedford.

Have you ever actually driven around MK in the peak? There is significant congestion around the Coachway and J14 in both peaks in both directions, and on going into Bedford on the 422. It isn't as bad as the 421 route, but it is still bad. And because it's a long distance route the X5 hits congestion elsewhere, too.

It is a half hourly service, but at times can be very random as to when in the half-hours it actually turns up.

The simple fact is the Marston Vale line is shuttling between Bletchley (which isn't a particularly important place) and Bedford (which is a slightly more important place).

The vast majority of the rail travel to / from the Milton Keynes area is for London commuters.

That is true, but only because the railway makes no attempt to gain it.

Perhaps if the Marston Vale line could actually sustain a well used hourly weekday service there would be a justification for increasing it to half-hourly, but given the resource constraints, there are much, much better schemes for both LM and Network Rail to be focussed on.

I think it could sustain a reasonably-used hourly weekday service *if* it ran to/from MKC, and the service was recast so there was a semifast. The change is a huge barrier.

Apart from the two Bedford stations and Bletchley, none of the stations manages an annual passenger usage of more than 50,000 - Long Buckby station (used as a comparison as it's also a village station) by comparison manages over 300,000.

Long Buckby is used as a park-and-ride so is not really comparable with the Marston Vale stations, most of which don't have a car park of any size (or at all).
 
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That is completely irrelevant and shows a lack of understanding. TOC's rolling stock costs account for about ¼ of their overall costs. So even if these 230s were significantly cheaper than anything else available, and that is certainly not a proven fact and according to some sources nowhere near the truth, it still wouldn’t result in large scale increases of services.

Thank you - I will forget everything I have learnt about travel patterns and growth gleaned in a 25 year career of involvement in growing railway patronage! :roll:

Not sure which TOC's cost breakdown you are referring to but I would have said 1/3 would be more realistic - however that is not the point I was making! I was pointing out that an hourly service is not attractive for normal travel and therefore you will only travel if there is no real alternative. 2 an hour is the minimum that starts to be regular enough to live with so it will inevitably result in more people travelling. I was not trying to provide a critical business case analysis for a particular service!

I think I remember why I stopped contributing!:|
 

A0wen

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Have you ever actually driven around MK in the peak? There is significant congestion around the Coachway and J14 in both peaks in both directions, and on going into Bedford on the 422. It isn't as bad as the 421 route, but it is still bad. And because it's a long distance route the X5 hits congestion elsewhere, too.

Pretty much daily for the last 15 years thanks - so am very familiar with MK and it's traffic challenges.

But the reality is the delays around Jn 14 are not that significant.

And the X5 is city centre to town centre, whereas MKC and Bedford stations are not in their respective centres.

Long Buckby has only recently had upgraded parking facilities - but then again it's further out of its village than most of the Marston Vale line stations are.
 

A0wen

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I thought this was a discussion about the 230 unit (or demise of) not a discussion about bus routes in MK?

It was responding to a flawed assertion that if a squadron of 230s were made available on the Marston Vale line it should have a 30 minute service, despite the fact that most of the time it would be carting fresh air back and forth.
 

Bletchleyite

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I was hoping for the opposite! Should have taken it to direct to Booths or similar and be done with it!

I *really* don't get the hatred for this project.

If it is non-viable no doubt they will be sold for scrap to liquidate the company. But what is the *problem* with them? Why do so many desire Shooter to fail?
 

47802

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I *really* don't get the hatred for this project.

If it is non-viable no doubt they will be sold for scrap to liquidate the company. But what is the *problem* with them? Why do so many desire Shooter to fail?

Because its a second rate product already rejected by 3 franchises for better alternatives. Some see it as a innovative solution, I see it as Vivarail trying to make a killing out offering a second rate product because they thought nobody was willing to make and buy new regional DMU's/Bi-modes, but unfortunately for Vivarail that's not been the case.
 
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Bantamzen

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Because its a second rate product already rejected by 3 franchises for better alternatives. Some see it as a innovative solution, I see it as Vivarail trying to make a killing out offering a second rate product because they thought nobody was willing to make and buy new regional DMU's/Bi-modes, but unfortunately for Vivarail that's not been the case.

This post wins the internet for today! Sums up the 230 project beautifully.
 

D365

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... because they thought nobody was willing to make and buy new regional DMU's/Bi-modes, but unfortunately for Vivarail that's not been the case.

Remind me again how many DMUs have been delivered, or withdrawn from service, this decade?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I *really* don't get the hatred for this project.

If it is non-viable no doubt they will be sold for scrap to liquidate the company. But what is the *problem* with them? Why do so many desire Shooter to fail?

Many in the area of the Northern franchise saw the Class 142 "temporary solution" unit (no bogies +a 75mph limit) being replaced by yet another "temporary solution" unit (bogies and a 60mph limit).

What is the problem, I hear you say. Look at the actuality of the time period of the project to date, queries of the cost of a 3-car unit with anything but the most basic interior layout, how matters have proceeded with the unit trials still not being completed...need I continue further?
 

47802

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Remind me again how many DMUs have been delivered, or withdrawn from service, this decade?

Remind me again how many units Vivarail can make isn't it about 75, while Northern have ordered 55 new DMU's and Anglia have ordered 38 Bi-modes and who's to say that such as EMT wont order some new trains.
 

D365

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Remind me again how many units Vivarail can make isn't it about 75, while Northern have ordered 55 new DMU's and Anglia have ordered 38 Bi-modes and who's to say that such as EMT wont order some new trains.

At the time the Class 230 was first conceived, there was no sign at all that Northern was guaranteed to receive any brand new rolling stock.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because its a second rate product already rejected by 3 franchises for better alternatives. Some see it as a innovative solution, I see it as Vivarail trying to make a killing out offering a second rate product because they thought nobody was willing to make and buy new regional DMU's/Bi-modes, but unfortunately for Vivarail that's not been the case.

So what if they are? He's not lying, he's not cheating etc. There's nothing below board about the product he is offering. If the market wants to buy it, it will, if not he'll lose a load of money. It's just a business gamble. Again, why the hate for the project?

You can dislike the unit itself and hope not to have to travel on one (though as with anything else I'll reserve judgement until I have travelled on one) but this seems to be going way beyond that.
 

47802

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At the time the Class 230 was first conceived, there was no sign at all that Northern was guaranteed to receive any brand new rolling stock.

no there wasn't and that's exactly my point about the Vivarail project.
 

Bletchleyite

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At the time the Class 230 was first conceived, there was no sign at all that Northern was guaranteed to receive any brand new rolling stock.

Quite. If anything, if the project fails he's been a victim of changing markets. That's the risk he took when he invested his money - again no need for hate.
 

47802

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So what if they are? He's not lying, he's not cheating etc. There's nothing below board about the product he is offering. If the market wants to buy it, it will, if not he'll lose a load of money. It's just a business gamble. Again, why the hate for the project?

You can dislike the unit itself and hope not to have to travel on one (though as with anything else I'll reserve judgement until I have travelled on one) but this seems to be going way beyond that.

Its not hate just my view of the project, and the hope that other franchises will also reject it for better solutions.
 

D365

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Do you mean in the last 10 years (i.e., since 2007) or since 2010?

In both cases I'm fairly sure it's only been the Class 172s, although a few Class 185s may have been commissioned into service in early 2007.
 

NeilWatson

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http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/train-trial-could-improved-ricoh-12431418


.... A trial of a new train which would have eased commuter struggles between Nuneaton and Coventry has been cancelled.

Former London underground trains had been transformed to increase the capacity on the route but the trial had to be postponed at the end of December when a test train caught fire.


The VivaRail train was on a test run when a fire broke out in one of the engine modules at the old Kenilworth railway station.

Now partners have pulled out of the project as the resulting delay would mean it wouldn’t be ready in time for the next rail franchise....
 
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