Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[sw1ller]

yes meant 50% power

50% power would still give grunt to two separate bogies as every bogey has power I believe. So it’ll be about as quick as a 150 I would think. Time will tell. I’ll let you know in 3 months when I’ve done my training.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

50% power would still give grunt to two separate bogies as every bogey has power I believe. So it’ll be about as quick as a 150 I would think. Time will tell. I’ll let you know in 3 months when I’ve done my training.

How many powered axles are there per car?

 

[Greybeard33]

To me they sound as if they have retained the original DC motors (rather than having AC motors put in), but with new IGBT inverters rather than camshaft control. Can anyone confirm if that is the case?

I thought that it is only the battery variant that has new AC traction motors, in order to enable regenerative braking? Certainly in the early days of the project, Vivarail stated that the original DC traction motors were being retained.

 

[class387]

I thought that it is only the battery variant that has new AC traction motors, in order to enable regenerative braking? Certainly in the early days of the project, Vivarail stated that the original DC traction motors were being retained.

Probably. Comparing videos of 230002 and 003, one can definitely hear the low DC-motor whine identical to unconverted D78s on the DMU, even above the diesel engine, while on 002 only the inverter sound is present.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me they sound as if they have retained the original DC motors (rather than having AC motors put in), but with new IGBT inverters rather than camshaft control. Can anyone confirm if that is the case?

I believe they have AC motors. I recall reading here that the traditional "DC motor sound" is at least in part due to straight-cut gears in the final drive (old Land Rovers and some other old cars make that kind of racket in reverse for the same reason) and isn't actually mainly from the motors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably. Comparing videos of 230002 and 003, one can definitely hear the low DC-motor whine identical to unconverted D78s on the DMU, even above the diesel engine, while on 002 only the inverter sound is present.

They both sound the same to me, accounting for different camera (phone) position etc.

 

[sw1ller]

How many powered axles are there per car?

I was led to believe it’s 4. Basically an AWD. that’s why they should be so good on the bidston line in slippery conditions. I’ve not seen conformation of this though so there’s a fair chance I’m talking ..... ya know.

 

[craigybagel]

I was led to believe it’s 4. Basically an AWD. that’s why they should be so good on the bidston line in slippery conditions. I’ve not seen conformation of this though so there’s a fair chance I’m talking ..... ya know.

Especially as the TFW units will be 3 car, with an unpowered trailer in the middle.

 

[coppercapped]

To me they sound as if they have retained the original DC motors (rather than having AC motors put in), but with new IGBT inverters rather than camshaft control. Can anyone confirm if that is the case?

The answers are available on Vivarail's website...

Powerpack modules are housed beneath the train, two on each driving car, each pack has an Engine and a Genset to power the motors on the bogies. Routine maintenance for oil or filters is easily undertaken by:

• Disconnecting the fuel and air hoses
• Unhooking the safety catches
• Lifting out with a pallet truck

The whole operation takes ten minutes and can be carried out using a concrete pad by the side of the track. Combined with the train’s state-of-the-art remote condition monitoring system and AC motors, both routine and unforeseen maintenance needs are cut down considerably.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The answers are available on Vivarail's website...

Based of off that it sounds like a two car train has 4 engines. Each driving car has 2 pack's, each pack has 1 engine and there are 2 driving cars. 2 x 2 = 4.
That cannot be right.

 

[samuelmorris]

Why not? They're van engines, not full size DMU engines (less than a quarter of the size of a sprinter engine at 3.2l ish vs 14l).
Given that there's an engine per removable module and two modules per powered vehicle it looks correct to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Based of off that it sounds like a two car train has 4 engines. Each driving car has 2 pack's, each pack has 1 engine and there are 2 driving cars. 2 x 2 = 4.
That cannot be right.

It is correct. "Heritage" DMUs (e.g. class 101) also had two engines per power car for a total of four per unit, which was so they could make use of the standard bus/lorry engines of the time.

 

[gazthomas]

Based of off that it sounds like a two car train has 4 engines. Each driving car has 2 pack's, each pack has 1 engine and there are 2 driving cars. 2 x 2 = 4.
That cannot be right.

Sounds right to me

 

[sw1ller]

Especially as the TFW units will be 3 car, with an unpowered trailer in the middle.

Very good point. Forgot about that middle car. Cheers.

 

[daikilo]

Understood, but how many traction motors are there as the Vivarail wording would be correct whether there is one or two per bogie?

 

[big all]

Based of off that it sounds like a two car train has 4 engines. Each driving car has 2 pack's, each pack has 1 engine and there are 2 driving cars. 2 x 2 = 4.
That cannot be right.

it seems to read that way but in my head reading quite a lot from different sources was
perhaps engine unit and maybe another unit with a fuel tank and perhaps auxiliaries although reading what i have just written makes more sense as a fully self contained unit

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What kind of power are each of these engines pushing out? If its only a little then you can see why they have 4.

 

[gazthomas]

What kind of power are each of these engines pushing out? If its only a little then you can see why they have 4.

I think each genset has a 200hp 3.2 litre, V6 diesel Ford van engine, so 800hp for a 2 car unit

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I think each genset has a 200hp 3.2 litre, V6 diesel Ford van engine, so 800hp for a 2 car unit

I am guessing the idea behind the use of van engines is so that they can easily be removed and aren't massive or very heavy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am guessing the idea behind the use of van engines is so that they can easily be removed and aren't massive or very heavy.

That and they are cheap, highly reliable and very readily available (including parts) as there are probably hundreds of thousands of Transits and other vehicles including that engine (e.g. recent Land Rover Defenders, Mondeos etc) on the road.

The Class 139 uses a fairly standard Ford LPG engine for similar reasons.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Especially as the TFW units will be 3 car, with an unpowered trailer in the middle.

800hp for a 2 car is pretty good but 800hp for a 3 car isn't so great. Although until we know the weight of the two and 3 car units we won't know.

 

[gingertom]

I think each genset has a 200hp 3.2 litre, V6 diesel Ford van engine, so 800hp for a 2 car unit

I was under the impression the 2 car unit had one car powered, with 2 engines and both bogies motored, and one not. A 3 car set has 2 powered cars, each with 2 engines and both bogies motored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was under the impression the 2 car unit had one car powered, with 2 engines and both bogies motored, and one not. A 3 car set has 2 powered cars, each with 2 engines and both bogies motored.

No, all driving vehicles are powered.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Right OK, after some internet digging i can say that the engine is in fact a 3.2 litre 200hp 5 cylinder. This is the same that is used in the current UK Ford Ranger. The official list of Ford Engines lists that Ford has only ever made 1 model of 5 Cylinder engine and it is a 200hp 3.2 litre engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_engines

Scroll down on this article and then look at 5 Cylinder engines.

Its says: "2015-present; The 3.2 is an I5 engine used in the Ford Transit, the Ford Ranger, Ford Everest, Mazda BT-50 and the Vivarail. For the North American-spec Transit, * the 3.2L Duratorq is modified to meet American and Canadian emissions standards and is branded as a Power Stroke engine. The 3.2 Power Stroke is rated 188 PS (138 kW; 185 hp) and 470 N⋅m (350 lb⋅ft)."

Of course ignore the US/Canadian bit as that doesn't apply as we are in the UK where it is allowed to produce the full 200hp.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

No, all driving vehicles are powered.

So 8 powered axles for a 2 car unit and 8 for a 3 car.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think each genset has a 200hp 3.2 litre, V6 diesel Ford van engine, so 800hp for a 2 car unit

Yeah as posted below that post, straight 5s not V6s.

At 200hp per engine, that's plenty for a small DMU. That means 400hp per powered vehicle, of which the vehicles are only 18m in length. Even considering a 3-car with an unpowered centre trailer, that's 267hp per 18m vehicle, compared with for example a 156 which has 285hp per vehicle for 23m. Given that the D78s and therefore 230s are Aluminium, the power to weight ratio of even the 3-car is perfectly adequate. It won't compare that well to the performance of say, a 185, but it'll be plenty good enough considering the 60mph gearing.

I'm not really convinced about the longevity argument, engines transferred from the automotive industry haven't worked too well in the past and they have to work very hard in the 230s compared to their normal load. Most DMU engines operate sub-2000rpm all the time whereas these are clearly working at 3000rpm+, you can hear that from the testing footage. Component reliability, however, isn't necessarily what Vivarail are going for - more ease of maintenance. If there's redundant engines in use and replacing defective ones is far simpler than on regular DMUs, then it matters a lot less how long the individual engines last. What could potentially be an issue is that with the backlash against diesel engines in small vehicles, this particular engine may be discontinued far sooner than the Cummins / MTU engines used in bigger units. How maintenance will fare in 10 years' time is up for debate.

 

[anamyd]

Right OK, after some internet digging i can say that the engine is in fact a 3.2 litre 200hp 5 cylinder. This is the same that is used in the current UK Ford Ranger. The official list of Ford Engines lists that Ford has only ever made 1 model of 5 Cylinder engine and it is a 200hp 3.2 litre engine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_engines

Scroll down on this article and then look at 5 Cylinder engines.

Its says: "2015-present; The 3.2 is an I5 engine used in the Ford Transit, the Ford Ranger, Ford Everest, Mazda BT-50 and the Vivarail. For the North American-spec Transit, * the 3.2L Duratorq is modified to meet American and Canadian emissions standards and is branded as a Power Stroke engine. The 3.2 Power Stroke is rated 188 PS (138 kW; 185 hp) and 470 N⋅m (350 lb⋅ft)."

Of course ignore the US/Canadian bit as that doesn't apply as we are in the UK where it is allowed to produce the full 200hp.

http://www.rrdc.com/article_04_2015_vivarail_transf_RAIL771.pdf

Apparently Adrian Shooter of Vivarail bought a Ranger to test the engine! It has been available in the UK / Europe since around 2007-2008 though as an "optional" engine on bigger Mk7 Transits

 

[anamyd]

Yeah as posted below that post, straight 5s not V6s.

At 200hp per engine, that's plenty for a small DMU. That means 400hp per powered vehicle, of which the vehicles are only 18m in length. Even considering a 3-car with an unpowered centre trailer, that's 267hp per 18m vehicle, compared with for example a 156 which has 285hp per vehicle for 23m. Given that the D78s and therefore 230s are Aluminium, the power to weight ratio of even the 3-car is perfectly adequate. It won't compare that well to the performance of say, a 185, but it'll be plenty good enough considering the 60mph gearing.

I'm not really convinced about the longevity argument, engines transferred from the automotive industry haven't worked too well in the past and they have to work very hard in the 230s compared to their normal load. Most DMU engines operate sub-2000rpm all the time whereas these are clearly working at 3000rpm+, you can hear that from the testing footage. Component reliability, however, isn't necessarily what Vivarail are going for - more ease of maintenance. If there's redundant engines in use and replacing defective ones is far simpler than on regular DMUs, then it matters a lot less how long the individual engines last. What could potentially be an issue is that with the backlash against diesel engines in small vehicles, this particular engine may be discontinued far sooner than the Cummins / MTU engines used in bigger units. How maintenance will fare in 10 years' time is up for debate.

Apart from being under less stress, don't the huge, low-horsepower turbo diesel engines like the 14 litre 285-400hp Cummins NTA engines have a relatively high torque output...?

 

[samuelmorris]

They probably do but I'm not sure what difference that makes coupled to a genset rather than a hydraulic transmission.

 

[anamyd]

They probably do but I'm not sure what difference that makes coupled to a genset rather than a hydraulic transmission.

Fair point!