Cumbrian Coast Loco Hauled Stock

[yorksrob]

The views of enthusiasts are irrelevant, what is important is those who use the line as a means of Transport and I gather the natives are not impressed indeed I have heard elsewhere that some members from the FLAG user group have compiled some stats to show that the Loco hauled services have been substancially less reliable than the unit services, granted they don't seem to have been too bad for the last couple of weeks, but Feb was poor with a number of Loco failures, train faults, DBSO faults, unit substitution, and one set T&T for a few days due to the lack of serviceable DBSO's.

I was a train commuter for a number of years, but I would rather travel by car by choice due to previous experience of poor train reliability, so that I actually get there on time, or even at all, rather than hoping that Thomas the clapped out 37 doesn't break down, and there's a reason why I drive a 2 year old car to work rather than a 20 year old one.

I've suffered a number of cancellations on this line, all before the 37's were introduced (and this as a 'normal' passenger attending rugby matches).

I gather that staffing is the bigger issue.

Having experienced the line cramped in a single 153, the Mk 2's are definitely a superior passenger experience.

On the subject of who's views are irrelevant or not as the case may be, I'm not sure that those who take a cavalier attitude to the public transport needs of places such as central and west Devon for example, can credibly speak as a 'passengers champion'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That was my experience last August, 10.04 off Preston to Barrow, 2nd 37 from there to Ravenglass (for Ratty Arms ) and a later service from there to Carlisle, everything perfectly to time plus mk2 interiors spotlessly clean (inc. toilets) and superbly comfortable, put a mk1 RMB in those sets and that would be perfection!

Indeed. A buffet car would be a great improvement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shame, then, that Northern still see fit to coat the outside of the windows with a fine film of their patented "Northern grit". Although it's still difficult to detract from some of the views.

Indeed - reminded me of travelling in Kent during the never ending hose pipe bans of the 1990's

Another definite bonus is that NR have moved the large window stickers to the top of the windows rather than the bottom as previously, thus not ruining the view.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Having experienced the line cramped in a single 153, the Mk 2's are definitely a superior passenger experience.

Whilst the additional capacity over a class 153 can only be a good thing messing about with the doors is a nuisance. Much easier to press a button and be done with it.

 

[47802]

I've suffered a number of cancellations on this line, all before the 37's were introduced (and this as a 'normal' passenger attending rugby matches).

I gather that staffing is the bigger issue.

Having experienced the line cramped in a single 153, the Mk 2's are definitely a superior passenger experience.

On the subject of who's views are irrelevant or not as the case may be, I'm not sure that those who take a cavalier attitude to the public transport needs of places such as central and west Devon for example, can credibly speak as a 'passengers champion'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you are saying the views of rail enthusiasts are important then are you?

I don't think my views about North Devon are particularly relevant, but I'm actually in favour of spending substancial money to fix the Dawlish problem with a new reliable main line, while you want a diversionary route to justify a service to North Devon.

I'm sure a rail enthusiast will find a MK2 a superior experience but if your a commuter your more interested whether the train turns up and gets you to work on time, if your interested in a superior travel experience try a preserved railway.

No train is perfect it will break down from time to time but it needs to be reliable as possible and the Loco Hauled needs to be at least as reliable as the units on the route.

In Scotland we have peak only Loco Hauled worked by brand new Loco's but on northern it is apparently acceptable to use ancient Loco's on 2 intensive daily diagrams. Of course if you want to take a bit further the North of England 3 times the population of Scotland, and last Sunday I was on the brand New Scottish Railway built at great expense worked by 158's and 170's despite the fact that even if you include towns further away than Selkirk such as Kelso etc the population is about half that of Workington, Whitehaven and Maryport which shows just how much Northern Rail really needs to improve in the next few years.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Indeed - reminded me of travelling in Kent during the never ending hose pipe bans of the 1990's

.

Ah, perhaps that's the reason you moved up to this part of the world then? not much chance of that happening in these parts too often

Whilst the additional capacity over a class 153 can only be a good thing messing about with the doors is a nuisance. Much easier to press a button and be done with it.

I really don't see the problem here, I mean how do you manage when travelling by car?

I'm sure a rail enthusiast will find a MK2 a superior experience but if your a commuter your more interested whether the train turns up and gets you to work on time, if your interested in a superior travel experience try a preserved railway.

.

Well when I last travelled on the Barrow-Carlisle loco hauled service the train on calling at Sellafield picked up a healthy number of passengers who filled up the majority of seats around where we sat, and the main comments about the quality of the "New Trains" as some of them obviously thought, were extremely positive, within a few minutes of being seated some of these workers had actually nodded off, now I seriously can't imagine that happening on a regular 142 or sprinter, that's if they even managed to get a seat in the first place.

 

[Dent]

I really don't see the problem here, I mean how do you manage when travelling by car?

I don't see anyone claiming there is any "problem", merely that pressing a button is easier than opening a MkII door.

How many cars have you been in that require you to lean out of the window to open the door? That's certainly not typical of cars in use today.

 

[47802]

Well when I last travelled on the Barrow-Carlisle loco hauled service the train on calling at Sellafield picked up a healthy number of passengers who filled up the majority of seats around where we sat, and the main comments about the quality of the "New Trains" as some of them obviously thought, were extremely positive, within a few minutes of being seated some of these workers had actually nodded off, now I seriously can't imagine that happening on a regular 142 or sprinter, that's if they even managed to get a seat in the first place.

Which totally contradicts comments I have heard from passengers about the difficulty of opening the doors and looking like something out of Thomas the tank engine.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I don't see anyone claiming there is any "problem", merely that pressing a button is easier than opening a MkII door.

How many cars have you been in that require you to lean out of the window to open the door? That's certainly not typical of cars in use today.

Fair enough "nuisance" then, and yes just pressing a button is certainly easier but is it really such a terrible nuisance to have to pop your arm outside to turn the handle, I'm no youngster and I had no problem whatsoever, sometimes I wonder how we ever managed a decade or so ago :roll:

Which totally contradicts comments I have heard from passengers about the difficulty of opening the doors and looking like something out of Thomas the tank engine.

Speaks volumes about said passengers mentalities then doesn't it?

Edit: Referring to the Thomas comments.

 

[randyrippley]

it was snowing in Lancaster in the morning when I got there 0829

snow in Lancaster.
In itself a rare event due to the proximity of the sea
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd have thought the loco hauled sets would have been a better fit on the Settle-Carlisle and maybe Leeds-Morecambe given the more touristy nature of those routes.
Or was there a desire to keep them as close to home as possible in case of problems?

 

[47802]

snow in Lancaster.
In itself a rare event due to the proximity of the sea
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd have thought the loco hauled sets would have been a better fit on the Settle-Carlisle and maybe Leeds-Morecambe given the more touristy nature of those routes.
Or was there a desire to keep them as close to home as possible in case of problems?

There is a slight clue in the fact that Sellafield is on the Cumbrian route and the parent company of DRS, and frankly don't want these thing breaking down on the Aire valley route, in any case looks as though the S&C will be shut for quite a while

 

[yorksrob]

Whilst the additional capacity over a class 153 can only be a good thing messing about with the doors is a nuisance. Much easier to press a button and be done with it.

Yes, I must admit, having the bars on the windows does make them more fiddly than normal. It's a shame they don't fit internal handles of the sort the VEP's used to have.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, perhaps that's the reason you moved up to this part of the world then? not much chance of that happening in these parts too often

Yes, you can say that again!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you are saying the views of rail enthusiasts are important then are you?

I don't think my views about North Devon are particularly relevant, but I'm actually in favour of spending substancial money to fix the Dawlish problem with a new reliable main line, while you want a diversionary route to justify a service to North Devon.

I'm sure a rail enthusiast will find a MK2 a superior experience but if your a commuter your more interested whether the train turns up and gets you to work on time, if your interested in a superior travel experience try a preserved railway.

No train is perfect it will break down from time to time but it needs to be reliable as possible and the Loco Hauled needs to be at least as reliable as the units on the route.

In Scotland we have peak only Loco Hauled worked by brand new Loco's but on northern it is apparently acceptable to use ancient Loco's on 2 intensive daily diagrams. Of course if you want to take a bit further the North of England 3 times the population of Scotland, and last Sunday I was on the brand New Scottish Railway built at great expense worked by 158's and 170's despite the fact that even if you include towns further away than Selkirk such as Kelso etc the population is about half that of Workington, Whitehaven and Maryport which shows just how much Northern Rail really needs to improve in the next few years.

Given that this rail enthusiast spends several thousand pounds a year on train travel for work and leisure, I'd say yes, our views do count. What's more, if you crammed a leaky 153 full of normals, then gave them the option of a set of Mk 2's I think you'll find their views suddenly become remarkably similar to those of rail enthusiasts.

 

[PHILIPE]

snow in Lancaster.
In itself a rare event due to the proximity of the sea
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd have thought the loco hauled sets would have been a better fit on the Settle-Carlisle and maybe Leeds-Morecambe given the more touristy nature of those routes.
Or was there a desire to keep them as close to home as possible in case of problems?

Use on the S&C has been thoroughly debated already on the Forum and has been ruled out as operationally impracticable at Leeds. You must consider that the Locos are maintained at Carlisle so working between Leeds and Morecambe would be too remote. The workings just fit nicely for the Cumbrian Coast Line.

 

[yorksrob]

Although, given that they now have driving trailers, they could operate into Leeds like a multiple unit.

 

[Flying Snail]

Speaks volumes about said passengers mentalities then doesn't it?

Edit: Referring to the Thomas comments.

I would say it speaks more to the mentality of the person supposedly overhearing the comments.

Isn't it funny how people just happen to overhear comments that support the view they already hold.

 

[PHILIPE]

Although, given that they now have driving trailers, they could operate into Leeds like a multiple unit.

Why do people want them on the S&C when they are operationally more convenient on the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[yorksrob]

Why do people want them on the S&C when they are operationally more convenient on the Cumbrian Coast.

I can only speak for me, but they are more comfortable as I prefer table to airline seats. That said, a 4 carriage Mk 2 set would have fewer seats than the 4car 158's that often run the line now, so rakes would have to be quite long.

 

[PHILIPE]

I can only speak for me, but they are more comfortable as I prefer table to airline seats. That said, a 4 carriage Mk 2 set would have fewer seats than the 4car 158's that often run the line now, so rakes would have to be quite long.

I'm not sure of the exact reason but it was ruled out by the powers to be for operational reasons. I don't know without going thoroughly in depth but eh services might not balance up. They have to be where they can suitably be stabled overnight and conveniently located for Maintenance purposes.
Isn't the S&C worked by 158+153 Combos rather then 4 Car 158s ?

 

[D1009]

Why do people want them on the S&C when they are operationally more convenient on the Cumbrian Coast.

Both routes terminate at Carlisle where they are based, so operationally they shouldn't be any different. No idea if there is any kind of problem regarding rolling stock on the S&C to solve, though.

 

[PHILIPE]

Both routes terminate at Carlisle where they are based, so operationally they shouldn't be any different. No idea if there is any kind of problem regarding rolling stock on the S&C to solve, though.

We may not think there is a problem but those in charge do. The option was persued but ruled out.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure of the exact reason but it was ruled out by the powers to be for operational reasons. I don't know without going thoroughly in depth but eh services might not balance up. They have to be where they can suitably be stabled overnight and conveniently located for Maintenance purposes.
Isn't the S&C worked by 158+153 Combos rather then 4 Car 158s ?

Yes indeed. I doubt that such problems are insurmountable, but why go to the bother when you can put them on the local line.

This isn't a criticism BTW, I think it's wonderful that this innovative solution has been brought to the railway network.

 

[Flying Snail]

Why do people want them on the S&C when they are operationally more convenient on the Cumbrian Coast.

There is no question that the stock would be better suited to the S&C, far fewer stops, greater distances between stations, more long-distance passengers.

AFAIR the main reason against it is the inter-working of the 158s on other NH duties and the disruption to Leeds rosters.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I would say it speaks more to the mentality of the person supposedly overhearing the comments.

Isn't it funny how people just happen to overhear comments that support the view they already hold.

Absolutely!

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely!

Yes indeed. I have to say, I'm a bit sceptical as to how many 'normals' appreciate the difference between a class 37 and any other form of traction.

I suspect that the carriage interiors are more relevant.

 

[47802]

Yes indeed. I doubt that such problems are insurmountable, but why go to the bother when you can put them on the local line.

This isn't a criticism BTW, I think it's wonderful that this innovative solution has been brought to the railway network.

I wouldn't call it innovative it might have been OK if they had used class 67 or 68's, instead of the any old clapped out crap will do for Northern, and wouldn't have been needed at all if the TPE 170's hadn't been allowed to go to Chiltern.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't call it innovative it might have been OK if they had used class 67 or 68's, instead of the any old clapped out crap will do for Northern, and wouldn't have been needed at all if the TPE 170's hadn't been allowed to go to Chiltern.

Well, the traditional response would probably have been to work the Pacers and 153's harder (or obtain more) so the current solution is innovative and demonstrates why Northern will be looked kindly upon by history.

That said, I would be perfectly happy with a solution involving modern loco's (as long as the comfy Mk2's were kept).

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes indeed. I have to say, I'm a bit sceptical as to how many 'normals' appreciate the difference between a class 37 and any other form of traction.

I suspect that the carriage interiors are more relevant.

Exactly, and especially so now when an arriving train is lead by a DBSO most 'normal' passengers won't be looking for or are unlikely to notice the ancient locomotive at the rear propelling the train, the only give away to them is perhaps the manually operated exterior doors, then once onboard they are very happy when they walk into a much more refined accommodation than they have been accustomed to for the last couple of decades or so.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly, and especially so now when an arriving train is lead by a DBSO most 'normal' passengers won't be looking for or are unlikely to notice the ancient locomotive at the rear propelling the train, the only give away to them is perhaps the manually operated exterior doors, then once onboard they are very happy when they walk into a much more refined accommodation than they have been accustomed to for the last couple of decades or so.

Spot on.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Fair enough "nuisance" then, and yes just pressing a button is certainly easier but is it really such a terrible nuisance to have to pop your arm outside to turn the handle, I'm no youngster and I had no problem whatsoever, sometimes I wonder how we ever managed a decade or so ago :roll:

A train or indeed a train service is of little use to me unless its convenient for me to use. The doors in use on the Mk2's running on the Cumbrian Coast route are far from convenient and so if I lived along the route I would avoid them like the Plague. I've traveled along the route and the scenery is at various points fantastic but those doors (and reliability issues from using 50 year old loco's) would put me off traveling along the route in loco hauled stock.

I've got used to pressing a button to board or leave a train and I have no wish to return to the days of inconvenience. I was a keen spotter in the 1970's / early 1980's and the railway was a much more interesting place back then but the railway cannot afford to exist like it did 40 years a go. I love to visit preserved railways and of course old rolling stock is part of the experience but they shouldn't be part of today's travel experience. At least in my opinion
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although, given that they now have driving trailers, they could operate into Leeds like a multiple unit.

However would the loco not be taking up valuable platform space?

 

[sprinterguy]

Isn't the S&C worked by 158+153 Combos rather then 4 Car 158s ?

Pairs of 158s aren't unusual on the S&C nowadays. It might just be a summer thing, but I think that in recent times there's been at least one service a day regularly booked for such a formation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No idea if there is any kind of problem regarding rolling stock on the S&C to solve, though.

There wasn't a little over ten years ago (it's astonishing that it's been that long!), when ATN were operating top and tail 37s and mark 2s over the route - don't know if anything has changed since, but given that the route has continued to be maintained to handle heavy coal traffic in the intervening years and regularly sees railtours running over it utilising both mark 2s and class 37s, I wouldn't have thought so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However would the loco not be taking up valuable platform space?

It depends on how long the trains are as to how much of an impact this has: A class 37 plus 4 x mark 2s isn't a great deal longer than a 4-car class 158 formation.

I'm not trying to defend a case to introduce class 37s to the S&C particularly, just giving my thoughts on what has been said.

 

[fowler9]

A train or indeed a train service is of little use to me unless its convenient for me to use. The doors in use on the Mk2's running on the Cumbrian Coast route are from convenient and so if I lived along the route I would avoid them like the Plague. I've traveled along the route and the scenery is at various points fantastic but those doors (and reliability issues from using 50 year old loco's) would put me off traveling along the route in loco hauled stock.

I've got used to pressing a button to board or leave a train and I have no wish to return to the days of inconvenience. I was a keen spotter in the 1970's / early 1980's and the railway was a much more interesting place back then but the railway cannot afford to exist like it did 40 years a go. I love to visit preserved railways and of course old rolling stock is part of the experience but they shouldn't be part of today's travel experience. At least in my opinion
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


However would the loco not be taking up valuable platform space?

How do you cope with having to open the doors on cars? Billions of people manage it. It wouldn't personally put me off catching a train. And for the record I have seen plenty of people who don't know you have to press the button to open train doors. God knows how they navigate the planet.

 

[anme]

How do you cope with having to open the doors on cars? Billions of people manage it. It wouldn't personally put me off catching a train. And for the record I have seen plenty of people who don't know you have to press the button to open train doors. God knows how they navigate the planet.

Indeed. I prefer powered doors on trains as well, but it seems hard to believe anyone would inconvenience themselves to avoid a manual train door.