dailymail - One in five train services could be axed as treasury tightens purse strings

[Class 170101]

It is the operators that are asking NR to fill their boots if they can, which is a marked change from their normal stance. There are a long list of deferred renewals looking at being sped up.

Hmmm not in my experience its been late notice disruptives due to poor planning and infrastructure issues - possibly still a fallout from the Stonehaven incident.

 

[father_jack]

Well across the last 6 months as an average we're probably selling about 150 tickets per 14-hour day with most of it local and some off peak London tickets, compared with about 500 per day in previous years with a fair proportion of those being walk up peak time London tickets!

I guess the unions will be prioritising protecting all the safety critical jobs and with more and more opportunities to buy online and potentially a simplified fares structure...

I know of a ticket office on 9% of the same week last year !!!

RIP to ticket offices and onboard catering.

Some management "yes" men and women particularly the newbie/non union members are in for a shock. I looked up a few figures albeit a while back, and IIRC statutory redundancy for 20 years service is about £13k, with the railways redundancy system (called P,T,R and R) giving about £32k. Figures may not be exact and will differ due to age and other criteria. Here's a good link if you want to crunch the numbers. http://www.lrd.org.uk/services/payline/files/rmt/pttr/pttr1986.pdf

It also has to be remembered that there are some booking clerks who can't exist outside of the glass, it will be hard for them in the outside world.

 

[irish_rail]

I think the potential to reduce admin staff would be less than you might think - 60 drivers need a certain amount of supervision, and I doubt it makes much difference whether that's 30+30 or 60.

And to counterbalance your last point, more route learning and refreshing would be required. Even in BR days large depots used "links" (groups of staff trained for limited route and traction knowledge) with a separate link (often known, for some reason I've never understood, as the "block") with wider knowledge who could plug gaps.

With depots combined there would be a definite reduction in driver numbers. At somewhere like Plymouth it may be a couple less drivers (120 grand a year saved). Suddenly, those 2 drivers no longer needed seem a bit less insignificant. Save an administrators salary, say 30k and then 2 guards as well 80k, and at plymouth alone you cut the wage bill by over 200k per annum. That is one location. When multiplied over the network there are millions and millions to be saved by very very small cuts in traincrew numbers enabled by pooling resources.
And yes there would be additional route learning eventually, when the pandemic is over but the savings would still out weigh the costs.

 

[The Planner]

Hmmm not in my experience its been late notice disruptives due to poor planning and infrastructure issues - possibly still a fallout from the Stonehaven incident.

Operators can still say no to them.

 

[Hadders]

I know of a ticket office on 9% of the same week last year !!!

Hmmm. Was the ticket office office closed for 4 days in the same week last year? Or did it happen to sell a high value ticket this year (e.g an annual season)?

 

[RealTrains07]

Indeed. I would also presume if the number of trains in passenger service is reduced it'll be the old trains which get withdrawn earlier than they would otherwise be.

Exactly what’s happening with EMRs remaining HST sets. Reduced demand has resulted in the sets being shortened and number in service reduced

 

[6Gman]

With depots combined there would be a definite reduction in driver numbers. At somewhere like Plymouth it may be a couple less drivers (120 grand a year saved). Suddenly, those 2 drivers no longer needed seem a bit less insignificant. Save an administrators salary, say 30k and then 2 guards as well 80k, and at plymouth alone you cut the wage bill by over 200k per annum. That is one location. When multiplied over the network there are millions and millions to be saved by very very small cuts in traincrew numbers enabled by pooling resources.
And yes there would be additional route learning eventually, when the pandemic is over but the savings would still out weigh the costs.

Or, presumably, it may not be ?

 

[irish_rail]

Or, presumably, it may not be ?

It may be more than 2. At the end of the day if you have more drivers who sign all traction and routes then fewer are needed as overall spare cover. Frankly id say 2 was being pessimistic and more than likely that would be a low figure.

 

[Newshound Mutt]

I would be looking over my shoulder if I were train crew today. Doesn't look good

 

[dk1]

I would be looking over my shoulder if I were train crew today. Doesn't look good

Really? Why is that?

 

[irish_rail]

I would be looking over my shoulder if I were train crew today. Doesn't look good

Any redundancies will be through natural wastage thats for sure (driver wise). Indeed drivers continue to be recruited. However putting my sensible hat on, some voluntary redundancy through natural wastage wouldn't be a bad thing, and before anyone comments I am staunch Aslef, just being realistic though!!!!

 

[Newshound Mutt]

Really? Why is that?

Government managed. And will be for the foreseeable future

 

[I13]

If 20% of trains are to be cut onward connections ought to be considered but without a complete recast of timetables this will not happen.

Similar to CrossCountry at New Street and doubtless other locations around the country. Newcastle - Reading and Manchester - Bristol have been largely cut, leaving Edinburgh - Plymouth and Manchester - Bournemouth on the same side of the hour. Heading north the Bournemouth connects into the Edinburgh okay but from Plymouth into the Manchester the former arrives just as the latter departs meaning the connection ends up being an hour. Heading south the Manchester just connects into the Plymouth but the connection is missed from the Edinburgh into the Bournemouth.

A half-hourly frequency is convenient, although fair enough if hourly with double the length ends up being what they go with, but if that is the new normal the connections really need to be worked out, otherwise certain journey times will be lengthened by an hour.

 

[dk1]

Government managed. And will be for the foreseeable future

And that makes any difference to traincrew because?

 

[6Gman]

It may be more than 2. At the end of the day if you have more drivers who sign all traction and routes then fewer are needed as overall spare cover. Frankly id say 2 was being pessimistic and more than likely that would be a low figure.

There are also significant differences in pay and conditions between the two operators which would rapidly be brought up by the TUs as requiring harmonising. ("If we are all driving the same trains, over the same routes we should all be under the same pay and conditions") And they wouldn't be harmonised downward.

Returning to single depots at each location is something I would like to see, but the idea it would save a lot of money is - I fear - unlikely.

 

[Newshound Mutt]

And that makes any difference to traincrew because?

Because like it or not, they will recognise you are vastly over paid and will do something about it.. Now that's my opinion, like it or not.

 

[dk1]

There are also significant differences in pay and conditions between the two operators which would rapidly be brought up by the TUs as requiring harmonising. ("If we are all driving the same trains, over the same routes we should all be under the same pay and conditions") And they wouldn't be harmonised downward.

Returning to single depots at each location is something I would like to see, but the idea it would save a lot of money is - I fear - unlikely.

Well on GA we've been on seperate Anglia, GE & WAGN conditions since 2004 when merging. None have agreed to any sort of harmonisation whenever it's been attempted. It's as if we never ever got together almost 17 years ago.

Because like it or not, they will recognise you are vastly over paid and will do something about it.. Now that's my opinion, like it or not.

I don't & it won't.

 

[Newshound Mutt]

Well on GA we've been on seperate Anglia, GE & WAGN conditions since 2004 when merging. None have agreed to any sort of harmonisation whenever it's been attempted. It's as if we never ever got together almost 17 years ago.


I don't & it won't.

Very happy for you.

 

[dk1]

Very happy for you.

Glad to hear it old fruit.

 

[ComUtoR]

Because like it or not, they will recognise you are vastly over paid and will do something about it.. Now that's my opinion, like it or not.

My best pay rise was under the goverment

 

[Newshound Mutt]

I'm not being hostile or disrespectful in any way; that's just my opinion. But I will gladly hold up my hands within the next fewyears if I'm wrong about it. All the best for the new year

 

[43096]

Exactly what’s happening with EMRs remaining HST sets. Reduced demand has resulted in the sets being shortened and number in service reduced

That's only part of the reason. The state of the ex-LNER vehicles and consequent time and cost to get them back into service is also a major factor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well on GA we've been on seperate Anglia, GE & WAGN conditions since 2004 when merging. None have agreed to any sort of harmonisation whenever it's been attempted. It's as if we never ever got together almost 17 years ago.

That happens all over the place, often it's easier than bothering to do anything about it. I'm on the same contract I was when I signed up with the (non-railway) company I work for now in 2006. Over those 14 years we've been taken over, spun back out and taken over again, but they have never bothered to harmonise. If it isn't causing trouble having people on slightly different T&Cs, then it's probably not worth getting into arguments about it, particularly in a unionised workplace.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly what’s happening with EMRs remaining HST sets. Reduced demand has resulted in the sets being shortened and number in service reduced

A very sorry situation indeed.

 

[dk1]

That happens all over the place, often it's easier than bothering to do anything about it. I'm on the same contract I was when I signed up with the (non-railway) company I work for now in 2006. Over those 14 years we've been taken over, spun back out and taken over again, but they have never bothered to harmonise. If it isn't causing trouble having people on slightly different T&Cs, then it's probably not worth getting into arguments about it, particularly in a unionised workplace.

Exactly. You are never going to find common ground. When Abellio first got the first short franchise in 2012, one of the first things Ruud Hacket said was that the unions needed to come to him as he couldn't be bothered to chase harmonisation as NX did in the early years.

 

[father_jack]

Hmmm. Was the ticket office office closed for 4 days in the same week last year? Or did it happen to sell a high value ticket this year (e.g an annual season)?

It wasn't "these" weeks to which I was referring.

 

[yorksrob]

In terms of ticket offices, I prefer the human option and always used to buy my tickets from the office in Leeds, having travelled there on my Metrocard.

Nowadays, I don't have the Metrocard, so find myself buying more point to point tickets from the machine at my local station. I still prefer the ticket office where possible though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmmm. Was the ticket office office closed for 4 days in the same week last year? Or did it happen to sell a high value ticket this year (e.g an annual season)?

To be fair, 10% of last years revenue is not untypical at present.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of ticket offices, I prefer the human option and always used to buy my tickets from the office in Leeds, having travelled there on my Metrocard.

Nowadays, I don't have the Metrocard, so find myself buying more point to point tickets from the machine at my local station. I still prefer the ticket office where possible though.

Vastly prefer the TVM myself. I can get a ticket very quickly, and it won't argue.

 

[yorksrob]

Vastly prefer the TVM myself. I can get a ticket very quickly, and it won't argue.

I'd rather have a civilised discussion with the booking officer over what I need, rather than jabbing away endlessly at the screen, only to find that for some reason it's decided that it doesn't fancy my bank card that day, thus having to walk over to the machine on the other platform and repeat the process all over again.