Delay Repay using split tickets

[ictl]

Hi all,

On Monday 25th July, I bought the following tickets for myself (with a 16-25 railcard) and my dad (no railcard):

Whittlesford Parkway to Shelford Off Peak Day Return (£2.40 + £3.60)
Shelford to Great Yarmouth Off Peak Day Return (£11.75 + £17.80)

As there is no Day Return ticket for Whittlesford to Great Yarmouth (only monthly returns), splitting at Shelford saves a decent amount of money.

The intended itinerary was:

0943 Whittlesford to Cambridge (calling at Shelford)
1012 Cambridge to Norwich
1136 Norwich to Berney Arms
[walk to Great Yarmouth then return]

On the day, there were signalling problems on the Cambridge to Norwich route, so my actual journey was:

0943 Whittlesford to Cambridge
1001 Cambridge to Ely
1032 Ely to Stowmarket
1155 Stowmarket to Norwich
1236 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
[walk to Berney Arms then return]

Abellio Greater Anglia have agreed to compensation for the Shelford to Great Yarmouth tickets but not the Whittlesford to Shelford tickets. They wrote:

"According to our records, your journeys between Whittlesford and Shelford were delayed by less than 30 minutes, so I'm afraid there is no compensation due on this occasion. Nevertheless, I accept that any delay is frustrating, and I apologise for the disruption to your journey that day.

After calculating the amount payable for your journeys from Shelford to Berney Arms, I have enclosed a cheque to the value of £14.80."

It's my understanding that I can use a combination of tickets for a single journey, and so I should be eligible for compensation for the entire journey, rather than having the journey split into two. Is this correct, if so, does anyone have any experience with dealing with AGA on this sort of matter?

 

[AlterEgo]

TOCs are advised to pay out on split tickets.

Call AGA and speak to them to explain further. They should resolve it for you.

 

[bb21]

There is no definitive answer on that, but TOCs are advised to do so. No compulsion that I am aware of. The rules are not as well worded as they should be.

I see they offered you half of the second ticket. Whether the missing £2.50 is worth spending time chasing them up for is entirely up to you.

 

[maniacmartin]

They said "your journeys between Whittlesford and Shelford", however the National Rail Conditions of Carriage section 19 states:

You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
[...]
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

Therefore, the journey was between Whittlesford and Berney Arms. There was no journey to or from Shelford in ticketting terms.

That said, I wouldn't expend too much effort chasing this, as the Passengers' Charter and Delay Repay instructions from AGA both only refer to 'ticket' in the singular as they didn't consider the case of people delayed when using split tickets, so it is a bit of a grey area.

 

[island]

Despite loud protestations to the contrary from some members, TOCs are not contractually obliged to pay out Delay-Repay compensation on tickets where the delay between the stations printed on the tickets did not exceed the prescribed minimum by reason only that the ticket was coincidentally used by the same person immediately before or after another ticket on which the passenger did experience such a delay.

 

[yorkie]

Despite loud protestations to the contrary from some members, TOCs are not contractually obliged to pay out Delay-Repay compensation on tickets where the delay between the stations printed on the tickets did not exceed the prescribed minimum by reason only that the ticket was coincidentally used by the same person immediately before or after another ticket on which the passenger did experience such a delay.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but Delay Repay definitely applies to the journey.

A passenger may use two or more tickets for one journey (NRCoC 19)

Sometimes a passenger is forced to use more than one ticket (where a through ticket does not exist), sometimes it may be through choice.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/525766/tsgn-franchise-agreement.pdf

Delay Repay compensation is defined here by the DfT as:

compensation payable to a holder of a ticket when such holder’s journey is delayed as more particularly described in the Passenger Charter

We've had this confirmed by senior people at ATOC and within well-behaving TOCs.

It's also mentioned on the National Rail website:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/121354.aspx

If your journey is delayed you may be entitled to compensation....

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but Delay Repay definitely applies to the journey.

I don't think there's any doubt about delay repay applying to a journey, but I think island's point is that if your journey involves tickets issued by different TOCs, there is nothing in the rules that says your delay repay amount must be based on the combined value of all of the tickets.

I'd be interested to know if there is any official guidance to the contrary.

 

[323235]

Yorkie has already confirmed official guidance from ATOC above of which AGA is a member of.

 

[najaB]

Yorkie has already confirmed official guidance from ATOC above of which AGA is a member of.

Yes, and the guidance is clear that split tickets form a journey. But what is less clear is that a TOC's payment has to be based on the total value of those spilt tickets. Let's say, for example, I was traveling from Broughty Ferry to London. I have an Anytime Single to Dundee (£3.50) and an Anytime Single to London (£139.00).

If the Scotrail train is cancelled and I miss the East Coast, does Scotrail have to pay out £66 for the hour plus delay having sold me a £3.50 ticket?

Edit: For the avoidance of doubt, I would *like* to think that Scotrail would pay out, but I'd like to see the rule that says they have to.

 

[yorkie]

NajaB - as I have posted above, delay repay is based on the journey

 

[najaB]

NajaB - as I have posted above, delay repay is based on the journey

That isn't in question. So I apply for delay repay from Scotrail, who will quite happily give me £1.75 in compensation. I can't apply for delay repay from East Coast as their train ran to schedule.

I completely get that you believe it shouldn't be a problem, and that Scotrail should pay out, but in many cases it doesn't turn out to be the case - hence this thread! In the OP's case it's only a matter of a few pounds, but it has the potential to be quite a significant difference.

So, rather than just repeating something that I don't disagree with and which isn't in question, what specifically can I qoute/refer to in order to *force* Scotrail to pay compensation for both tickets if they refuse to?

(Only using Scotrail/VTEC as examples for the purpose of argument.)

 

[AlterEgo]

That isn't in question. So I apply for delay repay from Scotrail, who will quite happily give me £1.75 in compensation. I can't apply for delay repay from East Coast as their train ran to schedule.

I completely get that you believe it shouldn't be a problem, and that Scotrail should pay out, but in many cases it doesn't turn out to be the case - hence this thread! In the OP's case it's only a matter of a few pounds, but it has the potential to be quite a significant difference.

So, rather than just repeating something that I don't disagree with and which isn't in question, what specifically can I qoute/refer to in order to *force* Scotrail to pay compensation for both tickets if they refuse to?

(Only using Scotrail/VTEC as examples for the purpose of argument.)

There isn't anything in writing you can point to and instruct a TOC to pay out on split tickets.

ATOC *advise* TOCs to pay out, but they can't compel them. It's disappointing when TOCs don't do so, because it seems unnecessarily petty in my view. The amount given out in delay repay is an absolute pittance in the scheme of things.

 

[Hadders]

My view is that it's clear you may use two or more tickets for one journey. And delay repay applies to the delay to your journey.

I've never had a problem getting TOCs to pay Delay Repay when using split tickets. For example:

- Scotrail delayed an Inverness-Glasgow train which caused me to miss an onward VTWC service to London (using a combination of Freedom of Scotland 4 in 8 pass and Off Peak Return from London to Carlisle)
- SWT when using a combination of tickets between Stevenage and Digby & Sowton
- FGW (as was) when using a combination of tickets between Stevenage and Bath
- London Midland when using a travelcard season between Stevenage and London Zones 1-6 and an Off Peak Day Return between Hatch End and Northampton.

(Pendant alert the SWT and FGW examples are not technically Delay Repay as they don't operate Delay Repay but that doesn't matter for the purposes of this post)

When submitting a claim using split tickets I've found it best to be absolutely clear about the journey you were making, the itinerary, the tickets used and where the delay occurred.

 

[najaB]

It's disappointing when TOCs don't do so, because it seems unnecessarily petty in my view.

I agree. It's a shame there isn't clear instruction to TOCs that they must pay out on split ticket journeys.

 

[cjmillsnun]

From what I see the first part of the journey was on time and this was the part they refused to refund. You didn't abandon your journey. Has you done so, I would be arguing for a refund on the whole lot, however in this case you could argue AGA are being fair.

 

[ictl]

Hi everyone and thanks for all the replies.

I emailed AGA (I didn't think it was worth calling them up) and they have sent me a £6 cheque (rather than £3) as a goodwill gesture. I'm confused about their reply though -- the first sentence seems to be an admission that I can claim for both tickets but the rest of the paragraph implies I can't but they're giving a goodwill gesture anyway. That or they are trying to explain (somewhat badly) why they didn't issue compensation on the Whittlesford - Shelford tickets in the first place (which is the first leg of the journey and not the second) and have compensated for the full value of those tickets as a result. They wrote:

"I am sorry that the compensation was issued incorrectly and did not take in to account the second journey. As these tickets were not a through journey then compensation would not be calculated in this way. However, as a gesture of goodwill I have enclosed the £6.00 on this occasion. I hope this helps you out."

In case it helps other people out, I have pasted my email to AGA below:

To whom it may concern,

Thank you for your response to my Delay Repay claim. I note that you have only provided compensation for the Shelford to Great Yarmouth ticket and not the Whittlesford to Shelford ticket.

Your Passenger’s Charter (available at: https://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/f/152657/152657.pdf) on page 17 (page 10 of the PDF) states that passengers can "claim for compensation for delays to your journey of 30 minutes or more”.

The NRCoC (available at: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf) section 19 on page 12 states that "You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies: (b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another”.

My journey involved the 0943 Whittlesford to Cambridge service, calling at Shelford (0947), which is where I have changed from the Whittlesford-Shelford ticket to the Shelford-Great Yarmouth ticket. I am not claiming for Whittlesford to Shelford and Shelford to Berney Arms separately. My Delay Repay claim is for one journey (Whittlesford to Berney Arms) which happens to consist of two tickets (Whittlesford to Shelford and Shelford to Great Yarmouth).

I believe I am eligible for compensation on the Whittlesford to Shelford ticket as well as the Shelford to Great Yarmouth ticket as I have made one journey (Whittlesford to Berney Arms) which has been delayed for over one hour. The two tickets are valid for one journey as they meet the criterion defined in NRCoC 19(b), and the entire journey is eligible for compensation from your Passenger’s Charter.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

 

[yorkie]

The people who write those letters are often lacking in knowledge and experience. Proof reading is often not done.

 

[bb21]

There isn't anything in writing you can point to and instruct a TOC to pay out on split tickets.

ATOC *advise* TOCs to pay out, but they can't compel them. It's disappointing when TOCs don't do so, because it seems unnecessarily petty in my view. The amount given out in delay repay is an absolute pittance in the scheme of things.

Yup, 10 posts down the line and we are back to exactly what we both said in Posts 2 and 3, on a fairly simple matter with a straight answer.

Sometimes I feel like we just go round and round.

The core issue, is of course that this scenario was never really considered when the scheme was written up, but until they are rewritten, there is not a lot that can be done.

 

[najaB]

Sometimes I feel like we just go round and round.

Apologies for taking the thread round one of those circles but strength with which Yorkie stated that the compensation amount would be based on the journey made me wonder what that confidence was based on. I was hoping that there was some documentation which I wasn't aware of.

 

[bb21]

Apologies for taking the thread round one of those circles but strength with which Yorkie stated that the compensation amount would be based on the journey made me wonder what that confidence was based on. I was hoping that there was some documentation which I wasn't aware of.

I wasn't meaning to criticise, just finding it amusing, that's all.

 

[island]

Yorkie has already confirmed official guidance from ATOC above of which AGA is a member of.

My post referred to contractual rights. Guidance given by a trade association to its members, and to which the passenger is not a party, is about as far from a contractual right as you can get.

 

[Flamingo]

Here's a scenario - I have two Off-Peak return tickets, I am using the return tickets one from Swansea to Didcot, one from Didcot to London. I break my journey at Reading for a day or two, then when I catch a train from Reading to London using the final portion, that train is delayed.

Is it really plausible that in that case I should be able to claim for both tickets from Swansea? Using the logic some are applying, that's the case.

 

[PermitToTravel]

You're clearly making two journeys. Nobody has claimed otherwise than in your imagination that you should be able to claim for both.

 

[Merseysider]

Here's a scenario - I have two Off-Peak return tickets, I am using the return tickets one from Swansea to Didcot, one from Didcot to London. I break my journey at Reading for a day or two, then when I catch a train from Reading to London using the final portion, that train is delayed.

Is it really plausible that in that case I should be able to claim for both tickets from Swansea? Using the logic some are applying, that's the case.

No, only the latter ticket should get delay repay as it's clearly two separate journeys. The OP's case is different as he held two tickets for one continuous journey, even though they changed trains.

Now if you were to ask whether an overnight BoJ creates two journeys rather than one...

 

[Flamingo]

You're clearly making two journeys. Nobody has claimed otherwise than in your imagination that you should be able to claim for both.

Both tickets were purchased at the same time, for a return London to Swansea journey, which, apparently, is the sole criteria for delay-repay to apply.

I'm just curious as to why posters think delay-repay might not apply to this scenario.

My personal view is that if split tickets are purchased, they have downsides - one is that they potentially restrict the trains that can be used, the other is that they potentially restrict the compensation that may be claimed when problems occur. These problems are rarely highlighted by the people who encourage their use.

For the record, I am not anti split-tickets and sometimes offer or sell them to people who are not aware of them, but the level of abuse (including physical assaults) I have recieved over the years from people abusing them, makes me less than sympathetic to users of them who want to have their cake and eat it.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's great that your employer don't agree with you about how they restrict compensation

 

[AlterEgo]

This gets discussed a fair bit with no clear consensus. For the record, I'm with Flamingo on this one - ultimately a "reasonable man" test should be applied. In the vast majority of cases TOCs should pay out on split tickets, but not when people are taking the pee.

 

[Flamingo]

It's great that your employer don't agree with you about how they restrict compensation

Yes, aren't you lucky

 

[yorkie]

My post referred to contractual rights. Guidance given by a trade association to its members, and to which the passenger is not a party, is about as far from a contractual right as you can get.

Contractual rights are not affected by using a combination of tickets (whether by choice or because the rail industry has not priced a through fare) for your journey.

It could be argued there are no contractual rights to Delay Repay at all (is that what you're arguing?), as the NRCoC only promises compensation "....if your arrival at the station on your ticket is delayed by an hour or more due to events within the rail industry’s control...." however, the train companies who do offer Delay Repay - which is always based on your journey - advertise that fact, which I'd argue is covered by consumer law (and is additionally covered by franchise agreements).

 

[Starmill]

Yes, aren't you lucky

I was under the impression that permit to travel is arguing on the same side as you in your example. It looks like you made a Reading to London journey, so how is a Swansea to Didcot Parkway ticket relevant? Of course it would be relevant if you were using a Swansea to London ticket for a Reading to London journey.

Consider the reverse effect of splitting.

Passenger is going on holiday from London in Garelochhead on Friday morning. They want to arrive at a sensible time, so they really need to be on the 0530 departure from London Euston. Lucky for them they can get a return for £365. The VT from London Euston to Glasgow Central arrives on time. Unfortunately, the 1221 from Glasgow Queen Street develops a fault and ScotRail have to cancel it. Next train 1637, so poor Mr Passenger is going to be rather more than 2 hours late. Luckily ScotRail run a delay repay scheme. Unfortunately for them they would have to pay Mr Passenger compensation of £365 even though all they did was delay him on the relatively short, relatively cheap (£7.20 single) Glasgow to Garelochhead leg of the journey. Oops!