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Denied travel on ticket to Ebbsfleet via route that was permitted when booked

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Merseysider

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On my part, I would agree with there being strength in numbers; ATOC et al are more likely to listen to several people than one person. Plus, letter writing, having the confidence to formally complain when a company screws up and having the balls to follow through to the relevant ombudsman is in my opinion a life skill. ;)

That said, this type of occurrence is becoming worryingly common, not just with Southeastern but a lack of competently trained staff at other TOCs too, for example recent cases with Transpennine Express, London Midland and Northern Rail.

Perhaps it is time a new section were added to the Disputes section of our Fares & Ticketing Guide, outlining the steps available for passengers to take, and a list of contacts/useful email addresses/sample or template letters etc.
 
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D6975

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They are never going to stop. This has been going on for ages.

Report them to the DfT for franchise breaches, the ORR for breaching consumer laws, Passenger Focus, seek redress in the small claims court, and get your MP involved.

Perhaps we can get the press involved too? Anyone have any contacts? I've sent a PM to someone from Which? but it would be better for someone to do a video of this sort of thing going on. Panorama would be good <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ha. What they meant was:
Oh damn, we'll have to spend time looking at your web form dated 11 April 2015.

I'm glad to hear of the problems you experienced when travelling with us. I can certainly appreciate the actions of my staff, who are doing what I've been telling them to do, consistently, for years.

Unfortunately, you seem to have found a fare that we do not want to be valid and therefore won't accept. Please be assured, myself and our fares department are going to be altering the routing on your ticket to reduce it's validity. Once I receive further information, I will be able to change it and inform you your tickets are no longer valid.

We are not sorry for any inconvenience caused, and to demonstrate this, I will be instructing my staff to continue ignoring the NRCoC, Routeing Guide and contract law, and they will be charging any passengers who use tickets we do not like.

Love it.
Reads like a Hacker/Humphrey translation from Yes Minister.
:D:D
 

table38

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Didn't really give a reason - just "come on, you know it's not valid" and "we're not going to let you through" peppered with mild laughter. A recording wouldn't have been a bad idea actually ...

One day they will encounter someone with a spare £5.82 to invest in one of these :)

41kVHHyL7xL.jpg
 

infobleep

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One day they will encounter someone with a spare £5.82 to invest in one of these :)

41kVHHyL7xL.jpg
Wow. Didn't realise they were that cheap.

Perhaps their should be a non publicly available list of stations where people encounter problems, with perhaps the frequency so that people know when is the best time to use such a device. One wouldn't want to have to use these devices all the time they travelled.

One can also get recording apps for phones, if sound is good enough.
 

RJ

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A camcorder is effective in getting facetious staff to behave themselves. I took mine out at Stratford International once. It sent the member of staff with the giggles into a right flap, until his colleague pointed out to him that I hadn't actually switched it on (the lens cover was still on). He stopped laughing after that. I don't know whether it was because he thought he was being recorded, because he made himself look stupid, or a combination of the two. Either way, it worked.

When staff get out of line, it isn't very difficult for them to create a no-win situation for themselves. They're supposed to act professional at all times, laughing at customers isn't ever acceptable. They later tried to get the BTP to do me for taking my camera out of my pocket, which was not a successful endeavour.
 
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First class

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One day they will encounter someone with a spare £5.82 to invest in one of these :)

41kVHHyL7xL.jpg

Covert audio recording can be illegal in certain circumstances, and will normally be disregarded in courts etc in any event.

Between two private individuals it is not prohibited to record conversations. The problem arises however if that conversation is then provided to a third party for whatever reason, without the consent of both parties.
 

table38

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but then the quote goes on to say:

Between two private individuals it is not prohibited to record conversations. The problem arises however, if that conversation is then provided to a third party for whatever reason, without the consent of both parties. Consent can be obtained retrospectively or by arguing it to be within the publics interest. As an example, reporters frequently record conversations covertly, but their defence is that the content is in the public’s interest and should be disclosed; in that knowledge of the recording would alter the content of the conversation significantly.

A thin line is tread here and many court battles have ensued to determine what is, and what is not, considered in the public’s interest. Injunctions are the most effective option available to the recorded individual who believes recordings have been made without consent, along with any claims for damages flowing from it.
 

DaveNewcastle

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but then the quote goes on to say:

. . . . Injunctions are the most effective option available to the recorded individual who believes recordings have been made without consent . . .
Injunctions which the Courts are regularly asked to grant, and which they regularly do grant. Many applicants having read in the media about high profile injunctions and 'gagging orders' are under the impression that such injunctions can only be ordered by the High Court (with a four figure cost), but some simple Injunctions can be granted by a District Judge or even a Magistrates Court for a very small Fee (and in some cases, without any fee at all).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Covert audio recording can be illegal in certain circumstances, and will normally be disregarded in courts etc in any event. . . . .
and quite rightly too.

But there are ways of recording an incident that cannot be recorded. I'm not going to present a formula (because there isn't one) nor cover all the points that should be considered, but it might be helpful to consider that an example of a useful recording in such circumstances might include a voice recording along these lines:-
"This is a note to myself. I've just been asked not to record the conversation I'm about to have and I am happy to comply with that polite request by a Railway Officer while I am on Railway premises, whether or not a recording of our conversation would be of value as Evidence to either of us. I am termnating this recording at nn:nnhrs on dd.mm.yyyy at <location> at the request of <identity in terms of name, or number or description> following my presentation of ticket number nnnnn at the end/ during/ at the change of my journey from <origin> to <destination>. Recording terminated."
(The Inspector could be asked to confirm their request not to record on the recording, and it's not impossible that some would then repeat their request on record.)

At the close of the interview that is not recorded, the recording could resume with another note-to-self confirming the place date and time, persons present and a summary of the discussion that was not to be recorded and any external confirmation of the place date time and persons present.

What Prosecution in any criminal proceedings would not be impressed by that Evidence of an attempt to frustrate the gathering of Evidence?
 
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Merseysider

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"EXCLUSIVE - Train Company caught illegally overcharging passengers" sounds like just the sort of thing the Daily Mail would love to publish.

"A secret recording obtained by the Daily Mail shows Southeastern refusing passengers the right to travel on their booked train. Despite rail fares going through the roof, Southeastern repeatedly charged Mr Smith extra, delaying him, even though he had a valid ticket."

Anyone up for p*ssing on Southeastern's parade? ;)
 

yorkie

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But there are ways of recording an incident that cannot be recorded....
True, although I once got asked to leave a station because I was using a clipboard to make written notes of a conversation between a member of the public and a person who purported to represent a fictional 'Company'. The police also wanted to read what was on the clipboard. I complied with both requests.

Would the use of a clipboard be seen as reasonable would you say? If you are told you must not make any notes or recordings whatsoever or you will be removed from the station, what advice would you have for that situation?
 

maniacmartin

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I was once told my a ticket office clerk that they are 'not allowed' to put anything they told me in writing, due to company policy :roll:
 

Shempz

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You need to change the headline slightly for the Daily Fail to run it. I've corrected it for you....


"EXCLUSIVE - Foreign owned Train Company caught illegally overcharging passengers" sounds like just the sort of thing the Daily Mail would love to publish.

"A secret recording obtained by the Daily Mail shows Southeastern refusing passengers the right to travel on their booked train. Despite rail fares going through the roof, Southeastern repeatedly charged Mr Smith extra, delaying him, even though he had a valid ticket."

Anyone up for p*ssing on Southeastern's parade? ;)
 

Haywain

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"EXCLUSIVE - Train Company caught illegally overcharging passengers" sounds like just the sort of thing the Daily Mail would love to publish.

"A secret recording obtained by the Daily Mail shows Southeastern refusing passengers the right to travel on their booked train. Despite rail fares going through the roof, Southeastern repeatedly charged Mr Smith extra, delaying him, even though he had a valid ticket."

Anyone up for p*ssing on Southeastern's parade? ;)
Be careful what you wish for. A journalist might just as easily turn it into a story about trainspotters taking the p...
 

RJ

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In recent years, the only instances of alleged ticket fraud that I can think of, based on exploiting errors, have been resolved through negotiation and mediation.

Outside the passenger rail industry, in the broader field of commerce, then it is not uncommon for errors to be exploited by dishonest persons and a fraud then successfully prosecuted.

Thanks. I should have made it clear that I'm interested in cases where somebody has used a ticket along a permitted route that follows the rules published in the Conditions of Carriage and the Routeing Guide.

I'm not particularly fussed about cases where people have gotten themselves into hot water for using itineraries that are both bizarre and non compliant with permitted routes as described in Condition 13 of the NRCoC.

Now the average ticket inspector might not be aware of this, but when a ticket looks surprising such as these Ebbsfleet via London tickets, it is likely to be escalated, and if the passenger also produces an itinery "as evidence" it suggests that the passenger was aware of the anomaly. Admittedly it doesn't confirm the frauldulent intention, but the way in which the ticket and itinery are explained are very likely to confirm that intention (especially if comment is made about the companies abilities to manage their own systems or similar insights into the passenger's awareness of the error and intention to take advantage of it).

How does the discerning passenger, or indeed a court determine what is an error in published permitted routes? There is no "set fare" for any journey, no formula for working out what a fare "should" be. Plus, the right to start/stop short means that there are thousands of tickets that can be used for a given journey. Which may all have completely different validities which just so happen to include the journey being undertaken.

Southeastern choose to set the fare of an Ebbsfleet to Epsom ticket at a lower rate than Ebbsfleet to London Terminals. Is it fraudulent to buy a ticket to Epsom with the intention of stopping short in London, as per the rights given in the Conditions of Carriage?

I suspect the byzantine nature of the ticketing system, coupled with the rights given in the NRCoC would make it very difficult to define an "error" in routing permissions and thus, prove any criminal intent which is based on the exploitation of an error. Which is why I asked if there are any cases which have actually resulted in a successful prosecution.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, anyone wanting to get through the barriers at St Pancras, I've found a nice ticket you can use that is valid between St Pancras and Stratford International. You're then at liberty to use other good value tickets to cover the remaining section between Stratford and Ebbsfleet :)
 
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CyrusWuff

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Also, anyone wanting to get through the barriers at St Pancras, I've found a nice ticket you can use that is valid between St Pancras and Stratford International. You're then at liberty to use other good value tickets to cover the remaining section between Stratford and Ebbsfleet :)

Whilst I would concur that that is indeed currently shown as permitted (and both Trainline and WebTIS-based ticketing sites will sell a ticket for that routeing), a quick look at the routeing guide suggests that it shouldn't be, by virtue of the stations in question having a common routeing point...
 

DaveNewcastle

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Thanks. I should have made it clear that I'm interested in cases where somebody has used a ticket along a permitted route that follows the rules published in the Conditions of Carriage and the Routeing Guide.
How does the discerning passenger, or indeed a court determine what is an error in published permitted routes?

. . . .

Is it fraudulent to buy a ticket to Epsom with the intention of stopping short in London, as per the rights given in the Conditions of Carriage?

I suspect the byzantine nature of the ticketing system, coupled with the rights given in the NRCoC would make it very difficult to define an "error" in routing permissions and thus, prove any criminal intent which is based on the exploitation of an error. Which is why I asked if there are any cases which have actually resulted in a successful prosecution.
You ask good questions, but I am sorry that I simply don't know the answer to the first one - there is no dataset which holds that information (other than internal records to a specific company which might go some way towards recording such details).

As for the question of defining "an error", there are a number of legal judgements in Contract Law which introduce concepts such as "ought reasonably to have known" and erroneous terms which do not form part of the Contract itself and that the mistaken party is in no way at fault themselves. It creates a web of interconneted 'rules', but I wouldn't expect that any low value railway fare within a local commuting area is ever going to enter this arena of dispute.
Not taking place on a railway, but a good summary of the position when a unilateral mistake arises can be found in Chwee Kin Keong v Digilandmall.com Pte Ltd [2005] 1 SLR 502 heard in the Singapore Court of Appeal.

On the question of erroneous terms which do not form part of the contract, my opinion would be that documents such as the 'routing guide' do not form a 'term of the contract'. But in contrast, the data displayed on screen by the software-driven booking engine used to inform the sale of a ticket at the time of that sale does. See Statoil ASA v Louis Dreyfus Energy Services LP [2008] EWHC 2257 .

As I hinted above, a clearer candidate for "an error" which the passenger would reasonable be expected to realise is a mistake would be among a batch of low cost local fares when one of those fares was an exception by allowing travel of an additional few hundred miles. But we shouldn't expect an argument along these lines from the use of the low value fares for local journeys which we are discussing here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should have given you a slightly better answer this morning to this specific question:
How does the discerning passenger, or indeed a court determine what is an error in published permitted routes? There is no "set fare" for any journey . . .
I guess the passenger facing this question should try to put themselves in the place of a Court facing the same question, so it becomes the same question. That would probably be best answerd by reference to Chwee Kin Keong (above), which can be summarised as : where one party (in this scenario, that's the passenger) has an understanding which corresponds with some external facts and actions (an intinery and then travel), and while doing so was aware that the other party (a Railway Company) was confounded by the mistake, and the passenger failed to draw the Company's attention to the mistake. The passenger will be assumed to know of the Company's mistake where a reasonable person in that passenger's place would have been so aware.

That definition brings us back to the popular phrase that if a deal looks too good to be true then it probably is. The Court ruled that 'ought reasonably have known' would be an element of the passenger's deduction in which they reached a conclusion about the price, and that their conclusion was that it "is so absurdly low in relation to its known market value, it stands to reason that a reasonable man would harbour a real suspicion that the price may not be correct or that there may be some troubling underlying basis for such pricing".

That is the line of reasoning which brought me to suggest that if a local ticket was priced similarly to many other nearby local journeys, but was unlike the others by allowing travel through a place a few hundred miles away, then "a reasonable man" might be expected to "harbour a suspicion that the price may not be correct or . . . etc.".

In my opinion, if this question was ever to be tested in a Court, then it would not be by reference to arcane and specialised industry documents such as the routing guide or lists of easements, but would be by reference to the sort of analysis I've outlined above and can be formulated thus:
  • Was the Company genuinely unaware of the mistake?
  • Would the Company not have entered into the Contract if they had been aware?
  • Might the Company reasonably have been aware of the error?
  • Would "a reasonable man" suspect that the price was a mistake?
  • Is the Company not otherwise at fault?

It's my understanding that the Company is aware of these tickets (thanks to passengers brandishing printed itineries or other challenges that lead to the transaction being escalated to their Fares Mangers within the Company), and it has not withdrawn them from sale; therefore the argument should not have to be rehearsed any further.
 
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Starmill

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Excellent! Well, thanks, Dave, I'm really pleased we've gotten to the bottom of this. Before anyone buys any ticket to make any rail journey or gets on any train, they must put themselves in the mindset of a court, to determine if the train company might have made any mistakes. Then they will know they are safe to proceed...
 

DaveNewcastle

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Perhaps you were not looking for an answer to the part of RJ's question which I was attempting to answer : "How does . . . . a court determine what is an error in published permitted routes?".

I apologise if I failed to give an adequate explanation of how a Court would be likely to approach the question of a unilateral error.
 

bnm

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I think there was an answer in there, but it was like wading through treacle to get it.

Are you paid by the word for forum posts? :roll:
 

najaB

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Are you paid by the word for forum posts? :roll:
On the other hand, I appreciate the completeness of DaveNewcastle's posts. They may be lengthy, but I have learned a lot from them.
 

Camden

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I think before anyone says they've learned anything from any opinions posted here, it would probably be helpful to understand the knowledge level of the source:

In other words, DaveNewcastle, are you a trained legal professional?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Of course not, I just make it up as I go along, hoping that no one will notice.
And there are so very many better qualified specialists in Railway Law ready, willing and able to assist. Aren't there?




In fact, the extent and the limitations of my experience, competency and qualification is made very clear at the very beginning of all my professional work and in my initial contact letter to clients (and that has included members of this forum when they have sought my assistance). But my contributions to this public forum are not within that regime.

Anyway, now that I am semi-retired, I have no PII, very limited rights of audience in Court, and as you have suspected, I just make things up as I go along in my spare time, so . . . . . .
. . . . my advice to you is not to take my advice.

Or, take it or leave it.
 

Flamingo

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I for one appreciate and thank Dave for his professional view and analysis in a forum that is increasingly dominated by self-opinionated whining from idiots who think they know all the answers but can't figure out which questions are actually important.

I'd rather read a post from somebody who obviously has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the subject, than an equally long whinge about the latest fiddle ticket being rejected and who got complained to, or "the nasty man being rude and threatening me with prosecution because I forgot where I got on the train".

Dave is a real asset to this site - which is more than can be said for some who have posted on this thread, who are simply a waste of good bandwidth...
 
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Camden

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Of course not, I just make it up as I go along, hoping that no one will notice.
That's fair enough, and of course opinions are good to hear in a forum designed to air them. On the basis of my own experiences I did feel I disagreed with a number of your points on this subject matter, but I'm not a legal expert either. I'll look forward to hearing the end result of this subject working itself out.
 
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Starmill

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I for one appreciate and thank Dave for his professional view and analysis in a forum that is increasingly dominated by self-opinionated whining from idiots who think they know all the answers but can't figure out which questions are actually important.

Dave is a real asset to this site - which is more than can be said for some who have posted on this thread, who are simply a waste of good bandwidth...

Isn't a discussion about the quality of discussion at RailUK forums something for another thread? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Ebbsfleet that I can see...?
 

Merseysider

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Flamingo said:
...an equally long whinge about the latest fiddle ticket being rejected and who got complained to, or "the nasty man being rude and threatening me with prosecution because I forgot where I got on the train".
be that as it may, both provide serious entertainment value from time to time
 

Mike395

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starmill, the pink feathered individual was responding to bnm's comment about DaveNewcastle's post. :D

Anyway, we appear to have drifted away from Ebbsfleet ticket routings as a topic so back on topic please ladies and gents! :)
 

RJ

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I think there was an answer in there, but it was like wading through treacle to get it.

Are you paid by the word for forum posts? :roll:

I appreciate the fullness of Dave's posts. If anything, it provides a basis to do a bit of reading and in the formulation of a defence, it always helps to have additional perspectives.

Normally I'd suggest ignoring posts which are irrelevant - but posts of this nature shouldn't be left to pass without negative commentary. So a "like" from me for Flamingo's brusque, but fair views on the matter.
 
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najaB

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That's fair enough, and of course opinions are good to hear in a forum designed to air them. On the basis of my own experiences I did feel I disagreed with a number of your points on this subject matter, but I'm not a legal expert either. I'll look forward to hearing the end result of this subject working itself out.
I think you rather may have missed the point of Dave's post...
 
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