Desparately trying to buy a ticket - Southern Railway debacle

[DoooTrain]

I had a truly frustrating and bizarre experience when trying to buy a season ticket from Southern Railway two nights ago.

I needed to buy a season ticket for my daughter to use to get to school. I checked the Southern Rail website to see when they would be open, because I could only do this after work. The website says Oxted station ticket office is open to sell tickets till 20:20. I have a screen print of the website, to prove this is their own website, and not a third-party website:

I went to the station after work, at 19:30. The ticket counters were all closed. (Problem 1: incorrect website or missing staff, wasted journey and wasted time).
Redhill station is about half an hour away. I checked the website which says Redhill is open until 22:35, I have a screen print of this.

So I decided to drive to Redhill station because I needed the ticket for my daughter to go to school the next day. After all, there was still about three hours to go before closing time.

When I arrived at the Redhill ticket hall, all the ticket windows were closed. (Problem two: incorrect website or absent staff). The blinds were down. The polite and helpful man on the barriers told us the ticket office man was on a break. Also that the ticket-office man had had a long day. It would be best to come back tomorrow. I asked when he would come off his break? He did not know. Later, as other customers came up to him and asked the same thing, he would repeat the message, ending with “Best to try again tomorrow”.

At this point I noticed another customer at one of the windows, trying to see around the edge of the blind to see who was inside. I chatted to him and heard he had been waiting for half an hour already. (Later we exchanged emails, I have his contact details). Then he managed to start a conversation, through the closed blind, with the ticket man who was hiding in the office.

He asked if he could buy a season ticket. The man said no, because he was short-staffed, and he had other work to do, but why not come back in the morning. This was at about 8:15, when the ticket office was supposed to be open for another two hours. The ticket-man was in there. He had been selling tickets earlier. He was not going home. He had been on a break for at least half an hour.

I joined in to this conversation to the closed blind, asking him if he could please sell me a ticket because I had driven all the way from Oxted that night, and I needed the ticket for my daughter to go to school the next day. He refused. I could not believe this, so I told him I was going to record this and turned on my mobile phone voice recorder. I have this recording. I also have a photo taken of the ticket window, there is no sign saying they are closed or short-staffed.

We both then pleaded with the man to please sell us a season ticket. After about ten minutes of arguing we had taken longer than it would have taken him to simply do the tickets. He kept on repeating that he could not sell us a ticket because he was short-staffed, and he had other things to do. From behind his closed blind. He did not give any other reasons, (for example that the machine was broken, or that he did not know how to do it or that he was sick or that he was still on his break.)

At this point he left the window, walked over to the door to the booth, locked it, then came back to sit somewhere well out of sight.
I chatted to the other customer who also wanted to buy a season ticket, and we exchanged details because we both were pretty frustrated and wanted to complain. While we were trying to persuade the man let us buy a ticket, other customers came and left, in some amazement, sometimes chipping in as well.

We offered to come back in a while if he was having his break. He insisted we go away, then come back in the morning. The man refused to talk after this point and turned off his intercom.

(Problem three: multiple customers trying to buy season tickets, refused by someone sitting in the ticket office two hours before his shift ended with the blind down.)

The new ticket machines are supposed issue season tickets, if you get a PIN number off the website beforehand. The website was down. We both tried it and failed. (Problem four: season-ticket PIN number part of website not working, customers couldn’t get a PIN to buy a season ticket).

Then I tried a ticket machine anyway, to see how it would work. At the PIN number screen, the machine gave an error (I have a photograph of this message), saying it could not contact the database of PIN numbers. I tried this three times, and on another machine. So the link from the machine to the website was broken. And the website was broken. (Problem five: ticket machine not in contact with website, impossible to sell season tickets).

The other customer left. I hung around a bit longer, talking to the window (no reply) and begging some more, pointing out it would not take long and I was spending an hour’s driving to get there. After 40 minutes I gave up because there was no reply.
The man on the barriers had seen all and heard most of this and was very apologetic. He was clearly very embarrassed by his colleague’s behaviour and I don’t blame him. He helped us get complaint forms and did his best to apologise on Southern’s behalf.
On my smartphone I found there was a complaints number on the Southern Website, and even better, it was a 24-hour line.

I phoned it at 8:45 PM. Maybe they could phone the reluctant ticket-man in his locked room and persuade him to do his job? I hung on and on … for 28 minutes. Listening to muzak and a recorded message saying they would answer. Also a message saying they would call back within two hours if I left my details. I didn’t want to leave a message. I wanted to talk to the “24-hour” complaints team who might just get someone to do me the honour of taking my money in exchange for a season ticket. After 28 minutes I got tired of waiting and left my details. (Problem six: “24-hour” complaints line is clearly nothing of the kind. Just a recorded message).

The next day at about 3PM, they phoned me back. Not within two hours as advertised, more like 17 hours. (Problem seven: “We will get back to you within two hours” is a lie. Looks good on the website, though).

The complaints man was polite and took all the details. He suggested the lack of staff might be down to “staff shortages”, announcing this phrase as if this made everything right. For the rest, he said he would get back to me.

The next day, I decided to go and get the ticket straight after work. After I got off the train at my local station (Oxted, “open to 20:20”), I went straight to the ticket counters. This was 18:30. All the ticket offices were closed already. So I still don’t have a season ticket.

 

[Muzer]

I think Wednesday night/Thursday morning, all ticket selling websites everywhere were down for maintenance - I expect this was due to some backend database being down, which presumably means everything will be affected. I don't know why. There's a thread about it somewhere. This could also be why the complaints line was busy, perhaps? (Just speculation).

Of course, no reason the ticket seller wouldn't have told you this if it affected his machine as well. Just another reason I try to avoid all contact with ticket office staff.

 

[OxtedL]

The next day, I decided to go and get the ticket straight after work. After I got off the train at my local station (Oxted, “open to 20:20”), I went straight to the ticket counters. This was 18:30. All the ticket offices were closed already. So I still don’t have a season ticket.

I've found that ticket offices around here have a tendency to close a little early at this time of year (that is, the summer), presumably due to staff cover difficulties around holiday periods.

If you get stung once, I also find you're very likely to get stung again if you try around the same time the next day - it'll be the same shift they're struggling to cover.

Your best bet is always the morning, which they seem to prioritise staffing - which will be because more people tend to buy tickets in the morning.

 

[maniacmartin]

You have more patience and persistence then I would have had!
I know it's not ideal, especially since it'll probably be a considerable sum, but could you give your daughter the cash to buy it in the morning?

 

[sonic2009]

Where do you travel from? As you mentioned that you got off the train at Oxted? You could always get it elsewhere.

 

[deltic1989]

This may sound like the silliest question imaginable, but I am not the kind of person that would benefit from a season ticket.
Is it possible to purchase the season ticket online, and collect it at a TVM, in a similar fashion to advance tickets?
As I say probably a silly question, but after reading the OP, it seems that if it is possible it would save a lot of faffing around.

 

[Muzer]

I don't know the answer to that, but I do know you'd probably not want one from a TVM for a period of a month or longer - standard orange ticket stock quite frequently has a tendency to wear out far too quickly. You really want the greeny blue season ticket stock which AFAIK you can only get from ticket offices or perhaps posted from the internet.

 

[tony6499]

Seems most complaints are addressed quicker on Southerns Twitter account these days

 

[bb21]

If the events panned out the way the OP described (I have no reason to doubt her/his story), then this is completely unacceptable. The OP should not have to alight at a different station, or visit at a time which is inconvenient simply because Southern cannot get their own staffing issues sorted.

The opening times the OP quoted are backed up by the information given by NRE so the OP has gone beyond her/his obligation to try and obtain a valid ticket prior to travel. Southern would go down on passengers who make mistakes like a ton of bricks so I wonder what punishment they think they should receive for failings of this magnitude. :roll:

I don't normally advocate that passengers are compensated for their time, but I think an apology and some goodwill gesture compo is the least the OP deserves in this case.

Seems most complaints are addressed quicker on Southerns Twitter account these days

This might be true. There is still no excuse though for not answering phone lines which are advertised as being staffed 24 hours a day and callbacks within 2 hours promised but not realised.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Southern were recently advertising for ticket office staff at Oxted funnily enough! I know because I regularly check their site for jobs

So hopefully once whoever gets the job has done their training it should be fully staffed again!

I have seen similar instances to what the OP describes though so sadly he is not alone in such experiences...there was once a man with a bike who waited over 30mins at the ticket office window near the Gateline I used to work at whilst the clerk was doing other duties, he had a peek under the blind and could see someone in there so as time went on he got more and more frustrated and kept knocking on the window and asking when it'll re-open!

He wasn't half as pleasant as the OP seems to have been, no pleading, more like complaining! The wait paid off though as he got served in the end but I do feel for passengers who get treated like that, it shows the TOC in a very bad light and just reinforces the fact that Gateline staff should have Avantix for sellling tickets (not longer than Weekly season tickets though!)

 

[RJ]

If the blind is down, it's because there is nobody available to serve - usually the blind being down is a hint! It is bad practice not to leave an explanatory note when the ticket office is supposed to be open however. That said, the other night after I had closed up, I went to lock up the booking hall when a customer holding a cheque for over £4k for an annual season ticket asked what time it'd be open in the morning. I chose to go and serve her - treating customers as a nuisance is not the way forward!

Ticket office windows should be open Schedule 17 specifies, though in practice many staff seem happy to close the ticket office early and keep their computer logged in until that time to evade being caught. Late openings and early closures can be reported to the Department for Transport, in writing.

 

[LateThanNever]

If the blind is down, it's because there is nobody available to serve - usually the blind being down is a hint! It is bad practice not to leave an explanatory note when the ticket office is supposed to be open however. That said, the other night after I had closed up, I went to lock up the booking hall when a customer holding a cheque for over £4k for an annual season ticket asked what time it'd be open in the morning. I chose to go and serve her - treating customers as a nuisance is not the way forward!

Ticket office windows should be open Schedule 17 specifies, though in practice many staff seem happy to close the ticket office early and keep their computer logged in until that time to evade being caught. Late openings and early closures can be reported to the Department for Transport, in writing.

Hear, hear.
As an aside a couple of years ago I queued up one evening for an expensive ticket at Exeter St David's for a long journey because I wanted to get organised for the day. And having watched us queuing (me for about 20 minutes) the ticket office man pulled down the blind about 40 mins early, without a word of apology, 2 people in front of me. He would have been lynched if there hadn't been bullet proof glass between him and us! The other station staff said they couldn't help as they didn't control the ticket office staff! They issued us with complaint forms. I resolved instead to write to the MD of First Group. The final outcome was an unreserved apology - particularly as the ticket office staff had been on a customer service course the previous day! - and a first class return ticket anywhere on Great Western. And that's the only time I've ever 'afforded' first class...

Moral: I'd complain at the highest level and say you are considering alerting the Dept of Transport to these failures in the franchise commitments!

 

[Llanigraham]

A question:
Before the end of a shift, does the Ticket Office person have to cash-up and balance their books?
This could explain why the blinds come down a bit earlier.

Agreed though, the OP should make a complaint.

 

[Urban Gateline]

A question:
Before the end of a shift, does the Ticket Office person have to cash-up and balance their books?
This could explain why the blinds come down a bit earlier.

Yes the Clerk has to cash up, but this is extra time built into their shift. E.g. if the Ticket Office closing time is 8:40pm then the Clerk is normally rostered to work until 9pm or thereabouts to give them enough time to close the Window at the advertised closing time and also cash up. (At least this is how it worked in SWT)

 

[richw]

This may sound like the silliest question imaginable, but I am not the kind of person that would benefit from a season ticket.
Is it possible to purchase the season ticket online, and collect it at a TVM, in a similar fashion to advance tickets?
As I say probably a silly question, but after reading the OP, it seems that if it is possible it would save a lot of faffing around.

You can not buy the first season ticket online due to need for photocard. After that they are available online but for post delivery only and can only be bought online a minimum of 5 days before they start. (FGW, unsure on other TOCS)

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks.

 

[RJ]

A question:
Before the end of a shift, does the Ticket Office person have to cash-up and balance their books?
This could explain why the blinds come down a bit earlier.

Agreed though, the OP should make a complaint.

Yes. Where I was before we were paid 20 minutes after the Schedule 17 closing time to do this, where I am now we have 15. It doesn't stop people closing 30 minutes early, do their book up then sit in the dark until time, when they click log off then get out of the office like a bat out out hell...

 

[34D]

Absolutely shocking. I hope your daughter can get a suitable ticket in the morning.

 

[David Goddard]

This is an awful state of affairs, which needs to be stamped upon by ATOC and the DfT as a matter of priority.
Another problem we have seen is where you wait for a ticket office to open in the morning, and at the scheduled time, the clerk goes and spends twenty minutes replenishing the TVMs.

We normally get to the station about fifteen minutes before the train leaves to allow time to get tickets, but on one occasion could not do so as the ticket clerk was away from the window filling the machine, which we couldn't use either as he was servicing it. This would hardly pass as an excuse for boarding the train without a ticket so we had to miss it, wait until he had finished, then another thirty minutes for the next train.

We am travelling from the same station at a similar time tomorrow morning, and can not afford to miss our intended train, so as a result have had to make a special trip out this evening to buy our tickets. We deliberately went to a different station, run by a different TOC!

 

[RJ]

He'd probably logged the machine in so no wrongdoing as far as anyone official is concerned. Complain to the DfT, then the TOC will stop their staff thinking that such practice is acceptable.

 

[tsr]

I have suffered from the needlessly long queues at GoVia operators' ticket offices & TVMs on several occasions in the last few months, largely due to machine failures and short staffing. As I know Redhill Station well, I feel I should add that there very rarely seem to be ticket office windows open past 2100, with the gateline member of staff (who has an Avantix machine) selling day and presumably weekly tickets. Although I cannot accept the following as an excuse, there may be little motivation to have a window open, as the ticket office is underused after around 2000, but that is probably largely in consequence of off-peak passenger flows and a lack of demand for return tickets owing to the current policy of not stopping trains overnight at the station. Unfortunately, Redhill now seems to have a habit of being short-staffed during the day, too. Since I have not missed any engagements/activites/booked trains, been unable to buy a ticket, or suffered any financial penalty, I have not complained, but I shall be much more likely to do so as a result of reading the above, and also due to various reports about a lack of satisfactory service which I have been made aware of.

 

[tony6499]

I have suffered from the needlessly long queues at GoVia operators' ticket offices & TVMs on several occasions in the last few months, largely due to machine failures and short staffing. As I know Redhill Station well, I feel I should add that there very rarely seem to be ticket office windows open past 2100, with the gateline member of staff (who has an Avantix machine) selling day and presumably weekly tickets. Although I cannot accept the following as an excuse, there may be little motivation to have a window open, as the ticket office is underused after around 2000, but that is probably largely in consequence of off-peak passenger flows and a lack of demand for return tickets owing to the current policy of not stopping trains overnight at the station. Unfortunately, Redhill now seems to have a habit of being short-staffed during the day, too. Since I have not missed any engagements/activites/booked trains, been unable to buy a ticket, or suffered any financial penalty, I have not complained, but I shall be much more likely to do so as a result of reading the above, and also due to various reports about a lack of satisfactory service which I have been made aware of.

Seems to be widespread on the Southern network at the moment with ticket offices being closed early.

 

[island]

He'd probably logged the machine in so no wrongdoing as far as anyone official is concerned. Complain to the DfT, then the TOC will stop their staff thinking that such practice is acceptable.

And of course the further negative result of this is that if the passenger ends up boarding without a ticket because the clerk has closed the available facilities without telling anyone, the retail control centre will think the office was open and the passenger may well end up with a penalty fare.

I don't think complaining to the DfT will accomplish anything, however.

 

[Clip]

This is an awful state of affairs, which needs to be stamped upon by ATOC and the DfT as a matter of priority.
Another problem we have seen is where you wait for a ticket office to open in the morning, and at the scheduled time, the clerk goes and spends twenty minutes replenishing the TVMs.

We normally get to the station about fifteen minutes before the train leaves to allow time to get tickets, but on one occasion could not do so as the ticket clerk was away from the window filling the machine, which we couldn't use either as he was servicing it. This would hardly pass as an excuse for boarding the train without a ticket so we had to miss it, wait until he had finished, then another thirty minutes for the next train.

We am travelling from the same station at a similar time tomorrow morning, and can not afford to miss our intended train, so as a result have had to make a special trip out this evening to buy our tickets. We deliberately went to a different station, run by a different TOC!

This is an issue with a lot of places if the day befores staff did not replenish the TVM before they booked off,or if they had anyone in the day before .Bit of a catch 22 for the clerk here though as people would have complained that the TVM wasnt working so they couldnt pick up their tickets and so on and so forth.

It sounds like an excuse but with only 1 clerk to do the duties of 2 just what does he prioritize? Most would say the ticket window but those who use the TVM would then be on teh case about it always being OOU


ETA: Sounds shocking behaviour from the staff the OP encountered

 

[34D]

I wonder if we need a forum sticky for 'what to do if you find the ticket office unexpectedly closed and tvm's receiving attention?

I would suggest taking pictures of both, and potentially using a help point or speaking to other staff.

 

[DoooTrain]

Thank you for all the comments and advice. I
I have not got a reply yet and I will post back here when I do get a response.

In the end I bought a return just for the day, from a machine. And the next day when Oxted was closed. I'm going to drop by Oxted and buy the season ticket now (13:00 Saturday) , they must be open now. To reply to one of the earlier posts, the ticket is from Edenbridge station (neither Oxted nor Redhill) because we drive my daughter to that station, she takes the train to school from there. I did consider giving her cash to buy a season ticket there, but it is a very small station and I don't know if they have a ticket office there. And if they do, if there will be anyone there...

I have a theory (just a guess though, no evidence to back it up) that this might have been a protest of a sort - if the man is being made to do three jobs at once and is massively understaffed, then maybe this was his way of flagging it up to his managers. Although the other customers and I were frustrated and stressed out, I could hear the stress in his voice as well - and he was never abusive or aggresive.

 

[Parham Wood]

We live in a crazy world. Why should you need to take pictures if the ticket office is closed and the TVMs are not working? The TOCs should be aware of this. The reason is of course to prove this fact because otherwise if they are "supposed to be working" you can end up with a penalty fair or prosecution as the onus will be on you to prove it. Even taking a photograph will probably mean you have to pay extra and try to claim it back. Certainly even if you are sold a more expensive fare on the train as a result you have to go through all the hassle and expense of trying to claim it back.

Back in the days when virtually every station had a ticket office you normally had no difficulty in buying a ticket. Indeed the range of fares was much less and this reduced each transaction time as there was no need to search for obscure cheap fares etc., thus quicker moving queues. So fewer people had to travel without a ticket and few if any legitimate travellers had any trouble with the laws and even if they did not have a ticket - the guard would likely to be sympathetic. Now with all these unmanned stations, faulty TVMs and probably longer wait times at windows whilst people take longer to buy a ticket, travelling without a ticket is I would say more prevalent (I am omitting those who deliberately aim to defraud). This means more people have to be able to defend themselves against not having a ticket as the law if applied strictly is totally in favour of the TOC.

I understand why the laws are there but the TOCs have no incentive to provide efficient ticket selling systems. They do not seem to be punished immediately for failure to provide ticket buying opportunities at stations, indeed most of the regulating authorities seem to be useless at any enforcement. Instead the TOCs can reap in thousands of pounds by levying penatly fares etc. so their inefficiencies are actually more cost effective in that they save money on wages and repairs at stations and reap in extra revenue in penalties. Crazy and they call this progress. There must be a better way.

 

[Llanigraham]

There must be a better way.

Of course there is.
Employ lots of people to sit in Ticket Offices issueing tickets, BUT, just remember that to pay their wages you will have to pay a lot more for that ticket.
Now, is that what you want?

 

[maniacmartin]

But what about the extra money that can be made by selling more tickets? I wonder how much that would offset the cost of extra staff at various stations?

 

[sheff1]

Or close most booking offices and have TVMs on all stations which can issue any ticket (including from any other station) for any dates within the next XX days.

..... oh, sorry, I am getting confused with my experiences abroad and we all know that what works in foreign parts wouldn't be possible in the UK.

As for Southern Customers Services, their incompentence has been well documented on here previously.