DfT advise TOCs that full timetable is to be restored on 6 July

AdamWW

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6 Nov 2012
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The Government need to supply the scientific evidence (and when I say evidence I mean real evidence not a theoretical paper produced by some retired professor) that travelling on public transport carries a high risk of catching COVID because I'm getting sick of this constant "do not use public transport" message. :(



We need evidence that a high proportion of those who have caught COVID in London caught it on the tube. Otherwise its all guesswork.
The fact that R in London doesn't seem to have been hugely different from the rest of England, and that the trajectory of deaths has followed a similar form (in fact dropping off more quickly than much of the UK I think) suggests that it's not been responsible for a large proportion of transmission there.

Having said that, much as I wish we didn't have the anti-public transport theme at the moment, I don't think we're at the stage where we should abandon all precautions until someone can prove there is a danger. We know that people spread coronavirus, we know it's quite contagious, and putting people together in an air conditioned vehicle for extended periods of time is unlikely to be good.

But if London can tolerate the tube, the overall impact on R of letting somebody board a 158 through a locally opened door might be something we could live with.
 
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LAX54

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Doesn't look like Liverpool to Norwich has been hourly, but it's been more than two-hourly. Closer to one train every 90 minutes.
sure they have been xx57 ex Norwich each hour, but there have been some failures
 

yorksrob

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It's interesting that from what I read on here, Londoners seem to be using public transport normally for off-peak and they don't seem to have a higher R-Value. It suggests for the time being that continuing home working (to avoid peak crowding) and asking people to consider alternatives where possible, but without "avoid" and "don't travel" messages is probably about right for now.
 

TheSel

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Merseyrail are increasing their services from 5 July.

Monday-Saturday:
Southport-Hunts Cross reverts to 15 minute frequency all day.
All other lines are 30 minute frequency all day. No reduction in frequency to hourly after 8pm

Sundays:
Southport-Liverpool Central will be every 15 minutes daytime, 30 minutes in the evening.
Other lines remain the same frequency as now (45-minute frequency to West Kirby and New Brighton, hourly elsewhere) but now running later into the evening.

Source: https://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/covid-19-july-timetable-changes.aspx
So Ellesmere Port gets 2 TPH (one involving a change, the other a through service) and Chester only gets 1 TPH on Sundays? Does that really reflect the pattern of demand?
 

87015

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It's interesting that from what I read on here, Londoners seem to be using public transport normally for off-peak and they don't seem to have a higher R-Value. It suggests for the time being that continuing home working (to avoid peak crowding) and asking people to consider alternatives where possible, but without "avoid" and "don't travel" messages is probably about right for now.
Its nothing like normal levels of use, off peak is largely deserted on inner suburban trains at least. Early mornings are the only place where anything can be described as busy, but thats busy for 2m social distancing so a slither of normal.
 

yorksrob

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Its nothing like normal levels of use, off peak is largely deserted on inner suburban trains at least.
Maybe not, but busy-ish overground/underground services might be closer to most off-peak services around the country.
 

centraluser

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Chiltern are introducing an amended timetable from 6th july, still not a full timetable. From my perspective the new timetable is worse than both the current and normal timetables as less non stoppers to marylebone from my station (high wycombe)
In the world in which we currently live, having fewer 'fast' non-stop trains is probably a good thing. Those trains normally become disproportionately heavily loaded between High Wycombe and Marylebone. I rather suspect that next week's timetable seeks to spread out the loads so as to reduce the likelihood of Social Distancing guidelines being breached.
 

M28361M

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So Ellesmere Port gets 2 TPH (one involving a change, the other a through service) and Chester only gets 1 TPH on Sundays? Does that really reflect the pattern of demand?
I actually missed that they were running a through service to Ellesmere Port as well as the shuttle.

Looking at the times it seems that the through train arrives at ELP at xx54 and departs at xx32, so rather than sit at the terminus for 38 minutes they are sending it to Hooton and back.
 

43055

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Looking at my local TOCs:

EMR have put a summary for the changes next week onwards on the website. In short not much is changing. Still a largely two hourly local service then but the robin hood gets 3 coach trains.

From Monday 6th July we will be reintroducing a small number of train services and providing additional seats on existing services. On our Intercity route, an addition of an additional morning peak service will see EMR operating 13 out of 14 of our normal peak time arrivals into London St Pancras. There will also be an additional late evening service to Nottingham. Regional routes will broadly remain as they are today with an addition of an extra morning service in each direction between Nottingham and Liverpool. There will also be an additional morning peak service from Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham and extra coaches added to other 'Robin Hood Line' services

The extra services are:
0600 Sheffield - London
2105 London - Nottingham
0635 Nottingham - Liverpool
0951 Liverpool - Nottingham
0752 Nottingham - Norwich is extended to start back from Mansfield at 0707

For Cross County on RTT. The 170 side looks to be very similar to the current timetable of hourly/2 hourly with some peak extras on both routes. On the other hand there could be a few bigger changes on the long distance side:
Manchester - South Coast looks to be the same
Scotland - South West looks to have more extensions beyond Newcastle and Bristol with only a few terminators at each now. Penzance and Glasgow are showing as 3 trains a day as well as both Aberdeen services.
Paignton returns as well with 2 trains a day from Bristol in which the last northbound service extends to Birmingham.
The Newcastle - South Coast services look to resume with what looks like two units running out of Birmingham and only going as far south as Banbury.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Looking at my local TOCs:

EMR have put a summary for the changes next week onwards on the website. In short not much is changing. Still a largely two hourly local service then but the robin hood gets 3 coach trains.

From Monday 6th July we will be reintroducing a small number of train services and providing additional seats on existing services. On our Intercity route, an addition of an additional morning peak service will see EMR operating 13 out of 14 of our normal peak time arrivals into London St Pancras. There will also be an additional late evening service to Nottingham. Regional routes will broadly remain as they are today with an addition of an extra morning service in each direction between Nottingham and Liverpool. There will also be an additional morning peak service from Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham and extra coaches added to other 'Robin Hood Line' services

The extra services are:
0600 Sheffield - London
2105 London - Nottingham
0635 Nottingham - Liverpool
0951 Liverpool - Nottingham
0752 Nottingham - Norwich is extended to start back from Mansfield at 0707

For Cross County on RTT. The 170 side looks to be very similar to the current timetable of hourly/2 hourly with some peak extras on both routes. On the other hand there could be a few bigger changes on the long distance side:
Manchester - South Coast looks to be the same
Scotland - South West looks to have more extensions beyond Newcastle and Bristol with only a few terminators at each now. Penzance and Glasgow are showing as 3 trains a day as well as both Aberdeen services.
Paignton returns as well with 2 trains a day from Bristol in which the last northbound service extends to Birmingham.
The Newcastle - South Coast services look to resume with what looks like two units running out of Birmingham and only going as far south as Banbury.
I'm sorry to point the obvious out but XC on Twitter said to help keep the trains for those who need them which, given the amount of people that flocked down to Bournemouth recently, is gonna be tricky for those that decide to ignore all advice and rules and do whatever they want.
 

AdamWW

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I'm sorry to point the obvious out but XC on Twitter said to help keep the trains for those who need them which, given the amount of people that flocked down to Bournemouth recently, is gonna be tricky for those that decide to ignore all advice and rules and do whatever they want.
Well anyone travelling for a non essential journey might be "doing whatever they want" so far as a TOC is concerned, but so far as the government guidance goes so long as they "considered" travelling some other way then they are doing the right thing. Would be rail users aren't even being asked to consider not travelling.

I think it would be quite useful to have more consistent messaging.
 

bramling

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It's interesting that from what I read on here, Londoners seem to be using public transport normally for off-peak and they don't seem to have a higher R-Value. It suggests for the time being that continuing home working (to avoid peak crowding) and asking people to consider alternatives where possible, but without "avoid" and "don't travel" messages is probably about right for now.
Misnomer I’m afraid. Whilst we’ve moved on from the lockdown when trains could only have a couple of people on, generally leadings are still well down - and remember frequency has increased since then, for example GTR is running a Saturday service now instead of a Sunday service, and LU is running a full weekday timetable (with varying levels of cancellations) vice a special service. Likewise long formations are running where possible.

There’s issues in the early morning, but aside from that things are still fairly empty. Think middle-of-day 1980s leadings. There were some moderately busy Brighton trains last week though.

This contrasts sharply to early-March, when full-to-bursting trains were still the norm at peak times.
 

yorksrob

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Misnomer I’m afraid. Whilst we’ve moved on from the lockdown when trains could only have a couple of people on, generally leadings are still well down - and remember frequency has increased since then, for example GTR is running a Saturday service now instead of a Sunday service, and LU is running a full weekday timetable (with varying levels of cancellations) vice a special service. Likewise long formations are running where possible.
sts sharply to early-March, when full-to-bursting tr

There’s issues in the early morning, but aside from that things are still fairly empty. Think middle-of-day 1980s leadings. There were some moderately busy Brighton trains last week though.
Moderately busy is busier than a lot of lines up here.

Now all we need is a Saturday service (not that we've got anything so generous).
 

nedchester

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So Ellesmere Port gets 2 TPH (one involving a change, the other a through service) and Chester only gets 1 TPH on Sundays? Does that really reflect the pattern of demand?
I tweeted Merseyrail that very question. No reply yet.
 

Jamesrob637

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Looking at my local TOCs:

EMR have put a summary for the changes next week onwards on the website. In short not much is changing. Still a largely two hourly local service then but the robin hood gets 3 coach trains.

From Monday 6th July we will be reintroducing a small number of train services and providing additional seats on existing services. On our Intercity route, an addition of an additional morning peak service will see EMR operating 13 out of 14 of our normal peak time arrivals into London St Pancras. There will also be an additional late evening service to Nottingham. Regional routes will broadly remain as they are today with an addition of an extra morning service in each direction between Nottingham and Liverpool. There will also be an additional morning peak service from Mansfield Woodhouse to Nottingham and extra coaches added to other 'Robin Hood Line' services

The extra services are:
0600 Sheffield - London
2105 London - Nottingham
0635 Nottingham - Liverpool
0951 Liverpool - Nottingham
0752 Nottingham - Norwich is extended to start back from Mansfield at 0707

For Cross County on RTT. The 170 side looks to be very similar to the current timetable of hourly/2 hourly with some peak extras on both routes. On the other hand there could be a few bigger changes on the long distance side:
Manchester - South Coast looks to be the same
Scotland - South West looks to have more extensions beyond Newcastle and Bristol with only a few terminators at each now. Penzance and Glasgow are showing as 3 trains a day as well as both Aberdeen services.
Paignton returns as well with 2 trains a day from Bristol in which the last northbound service extends to Birmingham.
The Newcastle - South Coast services look to resume with what looks like two units running out of Birmingham and only going as far south as Banbury.
Will be interesting to see whether Manchester keeps its quota of double Vomiters now that other services are restarting (North East to South Coast albeit part-route) or extended (North East to South West) and fewer sets will otherwise be sat in depots.
 

Bald Rick

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Aren't we all supposed to go to the pub as soon as we can for the sake of the economy?
Given pubs have suffered more than most businesses during the restrictions I think there should be some sort of scheme that rewards the more committed customers. Particularly if pubs have to restrict numbers to maintain social distancing. You wouldn’t want to be refused entry if the pub was too full, only to find that someone is taking up space sipping at a sparkling water that has lasted them two hours.

I’m suggesting a 2 pint/hr (or equivalent) minimum drinking rate with a minimum purchase of 4 pints. Rewarding loyalty. cheers! ;)
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Well anyone travelling for a non essential journey might be "doing whatever they want" so far as a TOC is concerned, but so far as the government guidance goes so long as they "considered" travelling some other way then they are doing the right thing. Would be rail users aren't even being asked to consider not travelling.

I think it would be quite useful to have more consistent messaging.


That's true yes, thank you - I forgot that. Yes we're being asked to consider other modes but public transport is a no go for me just yet.
 

185

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Some weeks ago, I made this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ins-others-abandoning-services-at-9pm.205228/ regarding Northern Trains (West), abandoning it's services after 2145 whilst other firms are running all their late trains. They blamed the DfT, stating they only have to run the trains the DfT specify.

Well, following on from this I alerted two MPs and a city mayor who emailed them on my behalf. The train operator passed wrong information claiming three trains were running, then retracted it after I send an up-to-date screenshot of National Rail Enquiries with the deleted trains missing. As of next week, on one route they still have three late evening services missing, effectively ditching the last 3 hours from the ordinary end of service, whilst *all* the other operators running from the trains station of origin, are running their last trains.

Regarding compliance, I spoke with the ORR who repeated the TOC's mistake in suggesting services were running which were then deleted days later, they subsequently apologised for their error. They suggested the DfT should be contacted for a copy of the EMA (Emergency Measures Agreement, the temporary franchise) to establish whether the service provided is compliant and the deletion of services just 48 hours prior is allowed - in short the ORR didn't know - this is a mess.

One question, still not explained despite the previous thread is the inconsistency. Compared with other TOCs which are running a normal last service - this TOC isn't, it's ditching the service three hours early. I'm still waiting for the FOI request for a copy of the company's EMA from the DfT, which will no doubt be heavily redacted.

Geographically, it seems to be a lottery, totally unrelated to passenger numbers as busy major city to city services are cancelled whilst little rural routes get a full service.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Given pubs have suffered more than most businesses during the restrictions I think there should be some sort of scheme that rewards the more committed customers. Particularly if pubs have to restrict numbers to maintain social distancing. You wouldn’t want to be refused entry if the pub was too full, only to find that someone is taking up space sipping at a sparkling water that has lasted them two hours.

I’m suggesting a 2 pint/hr (or equivalent) minimum drinking rate with a minimum purchase of 4 pints. Rewarding loyalty. cheers! ;)
I'll be literally in and out as quick as I can - ticking off Wetherspoons around the country! Within Manchester I'll be frequenting independents as they'll need my business and I'll leave 'Spoons to the tourists. That's why I'll need frequent reliable trains, and weekdays will provide these.
 

yorksrob

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Some weeks ago, I made this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ins-others-abandoning-services-at-9pm.205228/ regarding Northern Trains (West), abandoning it's services after 2145 whilst other firms are running all their late trains. They blamed the DfT, stating they only have to run the trains the DfT specify.

Well, following on from this I alerted two MPs and a city mayor who emailed them on my behalf. The train operator passed wrong information claiming three trains were running, then retracted it after I send an up-to-date screenshot of National Rail Enquiries with the deleted trains missing. As of next week, on one route they still have three late evening services missing, effectively ditching the last 3 hours from the ordinary end of service, whilst *all* the other operators running from the trains station of origin, are running their last trains.

Regarding compliance, I spoke with the ORR who repeated the TOC's mistake in suggesting services were running which were then deleted days later, they subsequently apologised for their error. They suggested the DfT should be contacted for a copy of the EMA (Emergency Measures Agreement, the temporary franchise) to establish whether the service provided is compliant and the deletion of services just 48 hours prior is allowed - in short the ORR didn't know - this is a mess.

One question, still not explained despite the previous thread is the inconsistency. Compared with other TOCs which are running a normal last service - this TOC isn't, it's ditching the service three hours early. I'm still waiting for the FOI request for a copy of the company's EMA from the DfT, which will no doubt be heavily redacted.

Geographically, it seems to be a lottery, totally unrelated to passenger numbers as busy major city to city services are cancelled whilst little rural routes get a full service.
It is undoubtedly a concern.

That said, saying various trains exist, then cancelling them at the last minute is a bit of an established ploy by Northern (thinking back to the strike).
 

43055

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Will be interesting to see whether Manchester keeps its quota of double Vomiters now that other services are restarting (North East to South Coast albeit part-route) or extended (North East to South West) and fewer sets will otherwise be sat in depots.
Given most of the services are stil not running I would say some services will still be double sets. It would be nice to see some more HSTs out which would help with doubling up voyagers.
 

Jamesrob637

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Given most of the services are stil not running I would say some services will still be double sets. It would be nice to see some more HSTs out which would help with doubling up voyagers.
They've been achieving their target Tuesdays and Wednesdays as only two are due out those days anyway! The full timetable requires four sets out on some days of the week, however. With more services starting from and finishing at Edinburgh and Plymouth I'd say that might be a possibility.
 

sleeper fan

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Looks like SWR will not be offering a full service until atleast September 4th still keeping the pathetic shuttles between Weymouth and Bournemouth then the train to London only once an hour. Anyone know why?
 

PG

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Some weeks ago, I made this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ins-others-abandoning-services-at-9pm.205228/ regarding Northern Trains (West), abandoning it's services after 2145 whilst other firms are running all their late trains. They blamed the DfT, stating they only have to run the trains the DfT specify.

Well, following on from this I alerted two MPs and a city mayor who emailed them on my behalf. The train operator passed wrong information claiming three trains were running, then retracted it after I send an up-to-date screenshot of National Rail Enquiries with the deleted trains missing. As of next week, on one route they still have three late evening services missing, effectively ditching the last 3 hours from the ordinary end of service, whilst *all* the other operators running from the trains station of origin, are running their last trains.

Regarding compliance, I spoke with the ORR who repeated the TOC's mistake in suggesting services were running which were then deleted days later, they subsequently apologised for their error. They suggested the DfT should be contacted for a copy of the EMA (Emergency Measures Agreement, the temporary franchise) to establish whether the service provided is compliant and the deletion of services just 48 hours prior is allowed - in short the ORR didn't know - this is a mess.

One question, still not explained despite the previous thread is the inconsistency. Compared with other TOCs which are running a normal last service - this TOC isn't, it's ditching the service three hours early. I'm still waiting for the FOI request for a copy of the company's EMA from the DfT, which will no doubt be heavily redacted.

Geographically, it seems to be a lottery, totally unrelated to passenger numbers as busy major city to city services are cancelled whilst little rural routes get a full service.
The written statement to Parliament on 23rd March contained this line :
In the event that an operator does not wish to accept an Emergency Measures Agreement, the Government’s Operator of Last Resort stands ready to step in.
Since the OLR were already in charge of Northern are we even sure that Northern are running under an EMA? Or are they able to do whatever DfT decide?

Either way it seems that the early finish is something which warrants answers - good luck with your FOI requests, I too think they'll be heavily redacted!
 

LowLevel

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XC obviously do not think so. Their website says all Chesterfield stops have been removed from 6 July.
They will be wanting to avoid their toy trains being filled up with Derby - Chesterfield - Sheffield local traffic I guess.
 

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