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DFT scraps plans for national ticket retailer

YorkRailFan

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Update on centralised Great British Railways online rail ticket retailer: December 2023​

As set out in the white paper, we are committed to improving passenger experience on the railways.

The private sector plays an important role in driving innovation and attracting more customers to the railway. As stated in the Bradshaw Address, we are focused on opening up railway data and systems, lowering barriers to entry for independent rail ticket retailers to improve passenger experience. We are confirming that we are not pursuing plans to deliver a centralised Great British Railways online rail ticket retailer.

Train operators will continue to retail to passengers online alongside existing third-party retailers while we develop measures to spur further competition in the online rail ticket retail market to make things better for passengers.

Well that's a real shame, both that this has been scrapped and that Trainline continues to live another day. This would make rail travel extremely accessible to tourists and those who don't travel by train a lot. It would have really opened up rail travel to more people and made it easier to navigate fare types.
 
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Hadders

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Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing. They have driven innovation in how tickets are sold and sites like Trainsplit have developed split ticketing reducing the cost of rail travel for many people. This would not happen if there was a single national retailing site.

You've only got to look at the 'updated' nationalrail.co.uk website to see what a single national site could look like.
 

YorkRailFan

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Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing. They have driven innovation in how tickets are sold and sites like Trainsplit have developed split ticketing reducing the cost of rail travel for many people. This would not happen if there was a single national retailing site.

You've only got to look at the 'updated' nationalrail.co.uk website to see what a single national site could look like.
LNER's website could have been a great option to base a national ticketing website off.
 

Kite159

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Agreed with @Hadders a single website wouldn't drive innovation, split tickets will be back to being more niche requiring manual research to find the splits or a 3rd party website which could find them but not sell you the tickets (so unless it was heavy on advertising it wouldn't survive).

Harder to get some of the cheaper 'TOC only' tickets as well, especially if it involves a slower journey with connections (ie the LNR+TfW only London to Manchester)
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed with @Hadders a single website wouldn't drive innovation, split tickets will be back to being more niche requiring manual research to find the splits or a 3rd party website which could find them but not sell you the tickets (so unless it was heavy on advertising it wouldn't survive).

Harder to get some of the cheaper 'TOC only' tickets as well, especially if it involves a slower journey with connections (ie the LNR+TfW only London to Manchester)

I don't think banning third parties was ever on the agenda, rather the very sensible idea of only paying for one official one instead of the pointless, expensive duplication of paying for about 8, one per TOC.
 

sor

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Is there any particular "innovation", other than automated split ticketing, that should be called out as an example? Even split ticketing is a touch spurious - a simpler ticketing system would eliminate the desire to split and the need for websites to offer it.

I mean, we have this "innovation" and yet most of the tickets I buy are still issued on orange card because it crosses a TOC boundary or enters London, or it's not e-ticket or smartcard enabled for "reasons". Actual innovation would be cleaning up that mess.

Not that anyone was proposing banning third party retailers, but it seemed reasonable that GBR should have its own ticketing website under its own brand. It was about simplification after all.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is there any particular "innovation", other than automated split ticketing, that should be called out as an example? Even split ticketing is a touch spurious - a simpler ticketing system would eliminate the desire to split and the need for websites to offer it.

Or you turn splitting into the official way to do things for Advances, which would significantly decomplicate too. For instance, rather than having separate Bletchley to Okehampton Advances (not that I'm doing that journey later, honest :) ) it would just issue Bletchley-Euston, Tube single (Oyster price), Paddington to Exeter and Exeter to Okehampton on one coupon.

I'm fairly sure that was on the agenda at one point, or something like it.
 

ainsworth74

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I don't think banning third parties was ever on the agenda, rather the very sensible idea of only paying for one official one instead of the pointless, expensive duplication of paying for about 8, one per TOC.
Quite, it seems self-evident to me that there should be one "official" source of railway tickets and then as many third-party retailers, with all the benefits that that brings, that the market can support. Heck it's not infrequently that we'll have someone saying they bought their tickets through "National Rail" as they haven't realised they've been transferred to a TOC site instead because quite logically National Rail should be a retailer!
 

setdown

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What's the argument for TOCs having their own retail solutions? Surely that's wasting massive amounts of money through duplication?
 

jon81uk

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What's the argument for TOCs having their own retail solutions? Surely that's wasting massive amounts of money through duplication?
I guess the same could be said about having TOCs in the first place instead of one single national train operator.
 

Haywain

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What's the argument for TOCs having their own retail solutions? Surely that's wasting massive amounts of money through duplication?
I think under franchising it was a requirement. However, while there is duplication, this also means there is variety in the interfaces offered and the benefits offered for using different sites. So moving to a centralised site would mean only one interface and would also probably mean losing CrossCountry's fee-free changes to Advance tickets, Southern's 'money back guarantee', GWR's offering rover tickets, LNER's Perks, and so on.
 
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Hadders

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LNER's website could have been a great option to base a national ticketing website off.
LNER is one of the better ones but that’s probably because they felt the need to respond to what Trainline had done. If there wasn’t competition then they probably wouldn’t put anywhere the investment they have into it.
 

paul1609

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What we need is a "Rail Trivago" that scans all the independant retailers for you to get the best price and then attempts to book the split tickets on the site that offers the best perks. At the moment its a real pia to have to go on UK Rail Tickets find the best split write them down and then book them on Virgin Rail Ticketing for the Virgin Red Points using a Virgin Atlantic Credit Card.
 

Bletchleyite

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What we need is a "Rail Trivago" that scans all the independant retailers for you to get the best price and then attempts to book the split tickets on the site that offers the best perks. At the moment its a real pia to have to go on UK Rail Tickets find the best split write them down and then book them on Virgin Rail Ticketing for the Virgin Red Points using a Virgin Atlantic Credit Card.

Trivago isn't to my knowledge a screenscraper, it uses global distribution systems analogous to rail retailers using those APIs. Screenscrapers are a menace and best avoided.
 

paul1609

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Trivago isn't to my knowledge a screenscraper, it uses global distribution systems analogous to rail retailers using those APIs. Screenscrapers are a menace and best avoided.
Im not a real IT geek how does it know how much all the third party sites booking.com etc are charging to compare the prices then?
 

Benjwri

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What we need is a "Rail Trivago" that scans all the independant retailers for you to get the best price and then attempts to book the split tickets on the site that offers the best perks. At the moment its a real pia to have to go on UK Rail Tickets find the best split write them down and then book them on Virgin Rail Ticketing for the Virgin Red Points using a Virgin Atlantic Credit Card.
I don’t think this is feasible, that’s scraping data off other sites, it does dip into what could be an interesting idea though:

Obviously many have mentioned that a national ticketing site has drawbacks, but what about a national price comparison website, similar to skyscanner? You enter your journey as you would any journey, and it pulls itineraries and prices from various websites, displaying the various details such as the itineraries and overall cheapest price. Once you select a journey it suggests what site offered the cheapest fixed and flexible fares, redirecting you to that site to purchase the tickets etc in the usual way.

This is something it would be hard for anyone but the regulator implement, so they can force access to prices via api, and also because profits from the site would be minimal, but would further spur sites to find cheaper tickets, lower booking fees and perhaps even start to erode at Trainline’s monopoly
 

paul1609

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I dont understand if Trivago (which is not a screenscraper according to Bletchleylite) can do it for hotels why "Rail Trivago" cant do it for Rail Ticket sites without screenscaping?
 

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I think it's a crazy move. Trainline's dominance of the online ticket market should be seriously challenged. The Financial Times actually headlined the increase in their share price as a result of this announcement!

There's plenty of room for competition as long as 3rd party sites are still available, and competing with a single national site would drive innovation even more. None of the niche features mentioned above are precluded by having a single national no-fees site.
 

JonathanH

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Obviously many have mentioned that a national ticketing site has drawbacks, but what about a national price comparison website, similar to skyscanner?
What variations are there in fares? It isn't as if the operators make different quotas for advance fares available to different booking engines at the moment.

Moreover, if a comparison website made multiple attempts to look up fares, and part of the process committed a reservation in the process, a quota of eight fares at a given price might be used up in making multiple searches.
 

JonathanH

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My MP's going to get a letter about this cop-out
Why? Having one booking engine, with the risk of it being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator level of functionality, would be terrible for customers.
 

fandroid

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What variations are there in fares? It isn't as if the operators make different quotas for advance fares available to different booking engines at the moment.

Moreover, if a comparison website made multiple attempts to look up fares, and part of the process committed a reservation in the process, a quota of eight fares at a given price might be used up in making multiple searches.
I think the existence of a "comparison website" would start to encroach on Trainline's market dominance, even if it were fairly basic. The punters do love such things and would feel that they were stealing a march on all the other sites. The key, as ever, is to have a marketing budget. It has been heavy marketing that has got Trainline its current position. However, there are plenty of people out there seemingly willing to compete and to hand over money when they think they might make a fast buck. The only problem is would take some clever targeted marketing to get them to part with that upfront cash in the first place.


In the meantime I'm going to write to my MP about this capitulation in the face of a quasi-monopoly position.

Why? Having one booking engine, with the risk of it being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator level of functionality, would be terrible for customers.

I don't share your assumptions about either dumbing down or customers or why such a site would suddenly kill choice. It would mainly divert people away from the one site that's happily extracts fees from people without providing much of a service in exchange.
 

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Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing. They have driven innovation in how tickets are sold and sites like Trainsplit have developed split ticketing reducing the cost of rail travel for many people. This would not happen if there was a single national retailing site.
100% agree. A "National Rail" monolithic ticketing site would be detrimental in my view. There would also be very low consumer confidence that it would give the best deal on all train fares, too.
 

ainsworth74

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100% agree. A "National Rail" monolithic ticketing site would be detrimental in my view. There would also be very low consumer confidence that it would give the best deal on all train fares, too.
Because consumer confidence is so high already :lol:

I still feel that, as long as third-party retailers are permitted to compete, having a "monolithic" industry ticketing site is not a particularly significant issue and an improvement on the current situation. For those purchasing tickets through TOCs anyway.
 

paul1609

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What variations are there in fares? It isn't as if the operators make different quotas for advance fares available to different booking engines at the moment.

Moreover, if a comparison website made multiple attempts to look up fares, and part of the process committed a reservation in the process, a quota of eight fares at a given price might be used up in making multiple searches.
If you are booking cross london journeys there are massive differences on fares between the sites depending on how the different sites treat the journeys.
For instance tomorrow Im doing a day return to Shrewsbury from Tonbridge no one site could come up with the cheapest fare as they dont offer such savings as overlapping tickets and travelcards then boundary zone tickets. Ive ended up with 2 advances booked with UK Railforums tickets and 1 day return booked with Virgin Ticketing. The advances have such tight connections booked at Stafford, Wolverhampton, Smethwick GB and Birmingham Snow Ive budgetted for 100 % cashback I mean delay repay on those. So the whole journey will cost around 3000 Virgin air miles, 8 litres of Diesel and £2.50 parking. if its raining I may invest £2 each way in Shrewsbury bus fares to get to Drew Meadow, why did they move from Gay Meadow? :)
 

ainsworth74

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Consumer confidence is very high with Trainline!
Misplaced confidence though! That being said in my world Trainline would still have every right to exist so people who prefer to have high perceived confidence but low actual confidence would be welcome to keep using ;)
 

Krokodil

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Consumer confidence is very high with Trainline!
Does that include the consumers who bought what Trainline told them were "Open Returns" only to find that all or one portion were actually Day Returns that have disappeared?
 

YorkRailFan

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Does that include the consumers who bought what Trainline told them were "Open Returns" only to find that all or one portion were actually Day Returns that have disappeared?
Don't forget selling tickets for trains that don't exist!
 

lkpridgeon

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I don't think banning third parties was ever on the agenda
Trainline would still have every right to exist
Banning 3rd parties might not have been on the agenda however, there was/is real consternation amongst retailers over how much more retail control would be centralised ie; would they enforce all retailers to use an interface provided by the national retailer and essentially reduces independent retail to a role of a customer service agent (akin to a travel agent) with no room for innovation/differentiation of offering.
Is there any particular "innovation", other than automated split ticketing, that should be called out as an example? Even split ticketing is a touch spurious - a simpler ticketing system would eliminate the desire to split and the need for websites to offer it.
Currently retailers are able to differentiate the offering based on customer types and travel purpose. There's a lot of small but vital innovations in this space. More-so there's also a lot of work going on in the background right now around how to improve the end consumer offering within the existing imposed limitations to drive better value, increase flexibility and information clarity. Lastly there's also an ongoing focus on end-to-end accessibility being driven by independent retailer and journey planning solutions that wouldn't have come about if it was all centralised (due to intransigence in certain bodies that I will leave nameless).
 

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