DFT scraps plans for national ticket retailer

[AlterEgo]

Does that include the consumers who bought what Trainline told them were "Open Returns" only to find that all or one portion were actually Day Returns that have disappeared?

Well yes, I'm talking about consumer confidence. It's the most popular site by a long way because it has a ubiquitous marketing presence, better refund fees than nearly every TOC, a great interface, and positions itself as an everyman outside the TOC bubble which uses innovations like elementary split-ticketing to save money on tickets.

I don't use Trainline but I do know why they are so popular, and the best competition is from other third party retailers, not some almost certainly awful National Rail site which won't be nearly as attractive to consumers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im not a real IT geek how does it know how much all the third party sites booking.com etc are charging to compare the prices then?

Because they are given access to the back end. Third party rail retailers work exactly the same way.

Some budget operations e.g. Ryanair, Travelodge and (in the comparable insurance industry) Direct Line don't give such access so don't appear in those systems. Skyscanner does screenscrape Ryanair but they don't like it so booking this way is strongly inadvisable.

 

[lkpridgeon]

Im not a real IT geek how does it know how much all the third party sites booking.com etc are charging to compare the prices then?

Interfaces from hotel groups, pre-existing interfaces used by travel agents, direct listings (driven in part due to their dominant position) and a lot of manual data (user reports and in some locations their own data collection). They do, do some scraping but not all that much. And it often doesn't work out cheaper through them! Skyscanner/Google flights use the same methods for flights as a lot of this data is already available to travel agencies just wasn't aggregated, agreements differed, etc.

Comparison sites that take you off to a retailer generally work by the retailers giving access to their systems. With the retailer getting marketing in return the comparison site gets commission per impression or sale.

 

[Krokodil]

Well yes, I'm talking about consumer confidence. It's the most popular site by a long way because it has a ubiquitous marketing presence, better refund fees than nearly every TOC, a great interface, and positions itself as an everyman outside the TOC bubble which uses innovations like elementary split-ticketing to save money on tickets.

I don't use Trainline but I do know why they are so popular, and the best competition is from other third party retailers, not some almost certainly awful National Rail site which won't be nearly as attractive to consumers.

They've certainly got the marketing sewn up. People think that they're the official retailer, and believe the "save with the Trainline" guff. The actual buying of tickets has caught loads out when they think that they're getting a good deal but pay no attention to the small print.

In a similar way people see the offers in a supermarket and assume that they're getting a good deal, even though it's exactly the same price as it was six weeks before, they just hiked it immediately prior to the promotion or used one store somewhere as the sacrificial one that displays the higher price. Consumers aren't that savvy.

 

[AlterEgo]

They've certainly got the marketing sewn up. People think that they're the official retailer

They think they are *an* official retailer (which is correct), but almost nobody I have ever spoken to thinks they are the only source of tickets.

, and believe the "save with the Trainline" guff.

I'm sure many do. But an equal number are just there because of "better the devil you know" inertia. They figure the tickets work fine, they get to have them all in one place, and there is nothing much compelling them to move.

The actual buying of tickets has caught loads out when they think that they're getting a good deal but pay no attention to the small print.

I think this is an illusion. People are caught out all the time by the vagaries of different booking sites, but Trainline have a large market share which tends towards the more casual user.

In a similar way people see the offers in a supermarket and assume that they're getting a good deal, even though it's exactly the same price as it was six weeks before, they just hiked it immediately prior to the promotion or used one store somewhere as the sacrificial one that displays the higher price. Consumers aren't that savvy.

Indeed consumers aren't savvy, and this is why, unless this mythical one-stop-shop NR retailer has a gigantic marketing spend, it will not make any meaningful penetration into the market, and why it was not a wise idea from the start. Consumers are not savvy and enticing them with "low fees" or whatever will not clear the barrier of scepticism the more casual side of the market has towards TOCs and National Rail.

 

[Alex C.]

Third party retailers have definitely innovated within the industry - without TrainSplit, I'm sure that Trainline wouldn't have stared doing split fares, and Trainline have a buying process which is about as friction free as it can be (5 clicks I think from search to viewing a ticket).

The biggest problems come from post-sales issues, in the form of refunds and delay repay. I think there is a strong argument that a centralised delay repay clearing house would make sense from a financial perspective (one platform to make, one team to manage) but also be a huge consumer benefit (see forum threads about delay repay being passed backwards and forwards between tocs). I also think refunds should potentially be handled centrally in the same manner - abandoned journey, change of mind, disruption based. This would mean less passing backwards and forwards and increased efficiencies. Retailers would have any booking fees on refunded tickets rebated (plus a %, say 5% to cover payment processing). The only issues I can immediately think of relate to AML legislation which means refunds probably need to be made to the source of payment but again that could be an API based instruction to the retailer to refund a given ticket.

 

[Hadders]

To make it simple for passengers I think delay repay should either be handled centrally, or by the company that sold you the ticket. If it was the company that sold you the ticket then having refunds and delay repay in the same place would make sense.

 

[jon81uk]

In a similar way people see the offers in a supermarket and assume that they're getting a good deal, even though it's exactly the same price as it was six weeks before, they just hiked it immediately prior to the promotion or used one store somewhere as the sacrificial one that displays the higher price. Consumers aren't that savvy.

Supermarkets don't do this nowadays and the one store thing is no longer allowed. Whats more common is just cycling through promotions, so an item might be half price for three weeks, full price for three weeks and then half price for three weeks again and so on. So they don't hike it up immediately before the promotion, its just the promotions keep cycling round anyway. They could keep the item at £1.50 for example instead of constantly switching between £2 and £1, but customers believe that its a better deal, personally i just refuse to buy the item at £2 and wait a few weeks for it to be £1 again.

 

[Krokodil]

They think they are *an* official retailer (which is correct), but almost nobody I have ever spoken to thinks they are the only source of tickets.

Where did I say that people thought that they were the only source? Of course people know that there are others, but many seem to be under the impression that TL has a status equivalent to bahn.de (as in run by RDG rather than just yet another third party agent).

 

[Haywain]

In the meantime I'm going to write to my MP about this capitulation in the face of a quasi-monopoly position.

You're going to complain that the current "quasi-monopoly" position is not going to become more monopolistic? The decision not to have a single GBR ticket selling site means more competition in the market place, not less.

 

[thedbdiboy]

What's the argument for TOCs having their own retail solutions? Surely that's wasting massive amounts of money through duplication?

The current setup still reflects that 'franchise' model, but with Govt taking revenue risk. Under that model, every TOC includes a retailing activity and earns commission (even though it is ultimately public money winging its way between operators). It's not that there is an argument 'for' the arrangements, it's just that is the status quo that was going to be replaced by GBR retailing. Now that it's not, Govt really needs to work out what it does want. A healthy competitive third party retail market may be one thing, but to eliminate all 'direct' selling would not be in passengers' best interests. However, having a load of different TOC websites (including 4 OLR ones) hardly makes sense.
So far the Government have proved very adept at announcing or promoting things and then backing down (HS2, GBR retailing, Ticket Office closures) but they're proving very bad indeed at working out exactly what it is they do want (apart from platitudes about 'greater choice' etc).

 

[infobleep]

Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing. They have driven innovation in how tickets are sold and sites like Trainsplit have developed split ticketing reducing the cost of rail travel for many people. This would not happen if there was a single national retailing site.

You've only got to look at the 'updated' nationalrail.co.uk website to see what a single national site could look like.

Not to mention the National Rail Enquiries app. Want to download station information any one? Or just watch it fail?

 

[Joe Paxton]

The current setup still reflects that 'franchise' model, but with Govt taking revenue risk. Under that model, every TOC includes a retailing activity and earns commission (even though it is ultimately public money winging its way between operators). It's not that there is an argument 'for' the arrangements, it's just that is the status quo that was going to be replaced by GBR retailing. Now that it's not, Govt really needs to work out what it does want. A healthy competitive third party retail market may be one thing, but to eliminate all 'direct' selling would not be in passengers' best interests. However, having a load of different TOC websites (including 4 OLR ones) hardly makes sense.
So far the Government have proved very adept at announcing or promoting things and then backing down (HS2, GBR retailing, Ticket Office closures) but they're proving very bad indeed at working out exactly what it is they do want (apart from platitudes about 'greater choice' etc).

I don't expect any great change from the muddling through until the new government after the next election, and even then given the state of public services the railway isn't going to be priority numero uno.

Nevertheless I do hope the opposition's shadow transport team are working on a strong and coherent plan for the future.

 

[zero]

About 90% of people to whom I explain why trainline is bad, say that they like the app so they are happy to pay a booking fee to use the app (if one is charged). Even though they haven't tried any other apps.

 

[jon81uk]

About 90% of people to whom I explain why trainline is bad, say that they like the app so they are happy to pay a booking fee to use the app (if one is charged). Even though they haven't tried any other apps.

Whereas I like the Virgin one, simple to use with Apple Pay and tickets into Apple Wallet plus gain 3 Virgin points per pound spend.

 

[takno]

Whereas I like the Virgin one, simple to use with Apple Pay and tickets into Apple Wallet plus gain 3 Virgin points per pound spend.

Don't all the apps and most of the websites manage to deal with Apple Pay and Wallet just fine? It's never seemed like a problem on the Google side of the world.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Don't all the apps and most of the websites manage to deal with Apple Pay and Wallet just fine? It's never seemed like a problem on the Google side of the world.

Yep, when booking with Northern and TPE, they allow me to add my tickets to Google Wallet and pay with Google Pay.

 

[jon81uk]

Don't all the apps and most of the websites manage to deal with Apple Pay and Wallet just fine? It's never seemed like a problem on the Google side of the world.

The Greater Anglia one allows payment with Apple Pay but tickets can only be downloaded to Wallet from the confirmation email not directly in the app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Greater Anglia one allows payment with Apple Pay but tickets can only be downloaded to Wallet from the confirmation email not directly in the app.

This is why I do use Trainline for on the day app purchases, where they don't charge a fee. Just a few taps to purchase and onto the Apple wallet, no faffing waiting for the email.

About 90% of people to whom I explain why trainline is bad, say that they like the app so they are happy to pay a booking fee to use the app (if one is charged). Even though they haven't tried any other apps.

The Trainline app is by FAR the best in my view, and no fee is charged on the day.

It also does simple splits, which means that it can be cheaper in some cases than a TOC app, and in some cases can be cheaper than Trainsplit depending on exactly what the split is.

The sensible advice now is to try multiple sites.

 

[GoneSouth]

Why? Having one booking engine, with the risk of it being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator level of functionality, would be terrible for customers.

As is the dominance of Trainline. Unfortunately their innovation includes drip pricing with the insertion of unnecessary booking fees. There should be much tighter regulation of this type of behaviour. I don’t like paying a fee every transaction for their innovation when I can get exactly the same tickets from a train operators website or app for less. Shameful as they are already receiving a fee for every ticket they sell.

 

[Hadders]

As is the dominance of Trainline. Unfortunately their innovation includes drip pricing with the insertion of unnecessary booking fees. There should be much tighter regulation of this type of behaviour. I don’t like paying a fee every transaction for their innovation when I can get exactly the same tickets from a train operators website or app for less. Shameful as they are already receiving a fee for every ticket they sell.

The ORR are investigating this sort of behaviour…

ORR publish review of online retailer fee transparency

The ORR have today published a review into how online retailers present fees (such as booking fees, share of saving/finder fees and fulfilment fees) to consumers. We reviewed the general information provided on retailers’ websites and apps about fees and purchased tickets through desktop...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[GoneSouth]

The ORR are investigating this sort of behaviour…

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

 

[Alex365Dash]

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

I suspect that it'll just involve Trainline being more transparent with their booking fees (adding them onto the ticket price at the first opportunity) rather than removing them completely.

 

[Hadders]

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

I don’t think we’ll see transaction fees being banned but they will be more transparent than they are at present.

 

[takno]

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

I'd be very surprised if that happened, given the way that booking fees have been handled in other industries. More likely is that Trainline will have merge the booking fee into the ticket prices they show on the grid, so that it doesn't pop up as an additional charge later.

Ultimately if you want to use an independent ticket supplier for the same price as the TOC apps then you'll either need the percentage that TOCs pay to independent ticket suppliers to increase, or the costs they charge for ticket fulfillment to go down. Trainline can't realistically fund all their operational costs, the costs of developing the app, payment charges and the current ticket fulfillment costs from the current percentage share.

 

[GoneSouth]

I suspect that it'll just involve Trainline being more transparent with their booking fees (adding them onto the ticket price at the first opportunity) rather than removing them completely.

They’re already paid for each ticket they sell, it’s unjustifiable.

 

[Haywain]

I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

It's simple - don't use Trainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

I did exactly that about half an hour ago.

 

[GoneSouth]

It's simple - don't use Trainline.

I don’t! It just annoys me that all those unsuspecting infrequent users see TL as the official app of the rail network and happily pay a few quid of unnecessary fees every time they buy a ticket. i guess people are just getting used to being ripped off these days.

 

[Krokodil]

The sensible advice now is to try multiple sites.

People really shouldn't have to though. It should be possible to get a reasonably-priced ticket without having to play the system. I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir.