DFT scraps plans for national ticket retailer

[yorkie]

Don't forget selling tickets for trains that don't exist!

Are you suggesting Trainline is making up data?

Or do you concede that actually RDG (i.e. the TOCs) release data for trains which are shown as running in the data feed but the TOCs subsequently delete?

People really shouldn't have to though. It should be possible to get a reasonably-priced ticket without having to play the system. I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir.

There is no need for anyone to "play the system"; simply book with us to get a good price!

Now you could argue that the TOCs should use the same supplier we use, to give the same results, however the reason they won't do this is that it would cause a shortfall in revenue for the TOCs, which would have to be subsidised by taxpayers

Rightly or wrongly, the Government believes that the majority of the population do not want that. Any further discussion on this should be in a separate thread though!

That is good news, thank you for the info. I look forward to a time when I can buy a ticket on Trainline for the same price as a TOC app.

You can do so, providing you leave it until the day of travel and use the Trainline app (not website)

In all seriousness, why use Trainline, when you can use our site? We either charge the same price as a TOC, or less!

You'll also be supporting the running costs of the forum, as well as offering a seat selector. In the event of any unforeseen problems, you also benefit from good customer service (UK-based staff, who know their stuff!)

They’re already paid for each ticket they sell, it’s unjustifiable.

Are you aware of how little RDG pay in commission to retailers these days?

If anyone thinks the commission alone can cover the costs, then I challenge them to say how it would work, and to come up with a website which would achieve that...

 

[Starmill]

Are you suggesting Trainline is making up data?

Or do you concede that actually RDG (i.e. the TOCs) release data for trains which are shown as running in the data feed but the TOCs subsequently delete?

Indeed. If anyone has evidence of even one case of trainline having issued a ticket for a service which wasn't in the data at the time of the sale I'd be absolutely amazed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no need for anyone to "play the system"; simply book with us to get a good price!

There are cases where Trainline will do a given split cheaper than TrainSplit. The TrainSplit fees are usually reasonable, but on occasions where the savings from a split are significant they are rather over the top because there is no cap. Of course the fees can be avoided by adding the tickets to your basket separately, but then you're getting a bit complex for the layperson.

FWIW there is a walk up split I use a fair bit that costs me no fees at all with Trainline when purchased on the day. It is another reason I use them for that purpose.

 

[yorkie]

There are cases where Trainline will do a given split cheaper than TrainSplit.

If you find an example where Trainline finds a cheaper combination, please let me know the details. I will ask the relevant person to make the changes.

In the past half a year or so, I've only had one example provided where we were not offering the optimal splits; I read about it around 1830, passed it on and checked the next morning, and it had already been fixed.

The TrainSplit fees are usually reasonable, but on occasions where the savings from a split are significant they are rather over the top because there is no cap. Of course the fees can be avoided by adding the tickets to your basket separately, but then you're getting a bit complex for the layperson.

In cases where a customer wants 100% of the savings, rather than 85% of the savings, when compared to purchasing the journey from a TOC, it is indeed possible to put each individual ticket in your basket.

Whether it is reasonable or not for 15% of the savings to be kept by the retailer and 85% to be passed on is subjective; it's not within our control. However, what it does enable is for the customer support to be excellent, with UK based staff who know their stuff.

There is nothing stopping you creating a website where 100% of the savings would be passed on! You'd likely generate a loss, even if you outsourced customer service to a cheap foreign country, but you could do it if you want!

 

[185]

Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing.

Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing adding shocking markups and inflating their own profits. Should be banned.

Only TOCs and the RDG should have licenses to retail Britain's train tickets.

Smacks of the same profiteering of crooks selling the E111 cards.

 

[yorkie]

Third party retailers are good for ticket retailing adding shocking markups and inflating their own profits. Should be banned.

Only TOCs and the RDG should have licenses to retail Britain's train tickets.

Really?

Even though we charge no more than TOCs, and often charge less, and sometimes much less?

 

[185]

Even though we charge no more than TOCs, and often charge less?

Some may do. Others don't.

 

[yorkie]

Some may do. Others don't.

No "may" about it; we save people a lot of money. But we should be banned from doing so, with passengers simply being charged the premium fares?

You pay PRIV rate, so might not be best placed to say that passengers shouldn't be getting the good deals that we offer, perhaps?

 

[185]

You pay PRIV rate

You may find that regardless of who pays priv rate and who doesn't, there are many of us watching out for things on this railway that simply aren't right, and a private travel agent, selling a passenger two expensive single tickets way above and beyond the price of a normal day return isn't good for the passenger. A substantial 30% mark up on an ordinary ticket isn't good for the passenger. That's not to say there are some more respectable private travel agents.

Some of us are lobbying government, the ORR and other agencies, like it or not - some of us are actually on the side of the passenger, and the principle that the passenger should always pay the lowest (correct) fare still stands from the onset of privatisation 27 years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you find an example where Trainline finds a cheaper combination, please let me know the details. I will ask the relevant person to make the changes.

In the past half a year or so, I've only had one example provided where we were not offering the optimal splits; I read about it around 1830, passed it on and checked the next morning, and it had already been fixed.

It's not about split optimisation, it's about the fees. In cases where there are few or no through Advances sold (usually due to TOCs messing with quotas) the split saving can be very substantial and 15% of it unreasonable as a fee. If it was capped at say £5 max (or perhaps better capped at say 5% of fare) that would be more commensurate with the work being done.

Trainline's fees aren't share of saving based but rather a small percentage of the ticket cost (or £0 for on the day walk up splits) so can be significantly cheaper in some such cases.

Thus, as I said, the best advice is to shop around!

 

[yorkie]

You may find that regardless of who pays priv rate and who doesn't, there are many of us watching out for things on this railway that simply aren't right, and a private travel agent, selling a passenger two expensive single tickets way above and beyond the price of a normal day return isn't good for the passenger. A substantial 30% mark up on an ordinary ticket isn't good for the passenger. That's not to say there are some more respectable private travel agents.

If you have examples of overcharging, I'd be interested to hear about this, but surely TOCs are similarly guilty, not just third parties. Indeed, examples of TOCs doing exactly as you describe have been posted numerous times.

We do not engage in such practices.

Some of us are lobbying government, the ORR and other agencies, like it or not - some of us are actually on the side of the passenger, and the principle that the passenger should always pay the lowest (correct) fare still stands from the onset of privatisation 27 years ago.

If you are on the side of the passenger, why do you want our website banned?

Our website was created by, and is run by, forum members who specifically set out to offer the best possible deals, itineraries, offers and customer service.

It's not about split optimisation, it's about the fees. In cases where there are few or no through Advances sold (usually due to TOCs messing with quotas) the split saving can be very substantial and 15% of it unreasonable as a fee. If it was capped at say £5 max that would be more commensurate with the work being done.

Trainline's fees aren't share of saving based but rather a small percentage of the ticket cost (or £0 for on the day walk up splits) so can be significantly cheaper in some such cases.

Thus, as I said, the best advice is to shop around!

We are either the same price as, or cheaper, than TOCs.

Trainline charge booking fees; you are right that in some cases Trainline do find splits that reduce the price of the journey to be lower than what TOCs would charge, even when you add on their fees and that in a subset of those cases (but not very often), this can be cheaper than buying through us.

However, is their customer service as good as ours? Do they consistently provide accurate information regarding what you are getting? By all means use Trainline instead of us, but for many journeys, using Trainline will cost you more than what a TOC would charge you, due to the booking fees.

As you admit, if you want 100% of the savings we found, not just 85%, you can get around it by booking with us each individual ticket and not paying any fee whatsoever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, is their customer service as good as ours?

I may judge that based on an interaction I'm about to have...will post details when I see how it's handled

But I want it to just work. Interactions with customer services, except for really complex situations, imply that there has been a failure to start with!

Do they consistently provide accurate information regarding what you are getting? By all means use Trainline instead of us, but for many journeys, using Trainline will cost you more than what a TOC would charge you, due to the booking fees.

So, as I said, the best value is obtained by shopping around. I have never paid Trainline any fees (bar a discretionary refund fee which for small fares is lower than most), but as long as their excellent app charges none for on the day walk ups with the handy added splitting feature I'll continue to use it.

 

[takno]

I found Trainsplit's customer service to be entirely unhelpful last time I used it, since I was traveling at the weekend and they don't work. To add to the irritation I was 2 hours late, so I got a full delay repay on the tickets themselves, and I could have been an hour earlier if I didn't have splits going a stupid route. It was extremely galling therefore to still be about 15 quid out on the cost of transaction fees. If I'd just bought full-price from the retailer I'd have got the whole lot back, and in fact I could have kept a nice little 5% cashback on the LNER website for my trouble.

It would be a lot better for Trainsplit to refund their transaction fees in such cases, since otherwise they're just not saving me money.

 

[yorkie]

I found Trainsplit's customer service to be entirely unhelpful last time I used it, since I was traveling at the weekend and they don't work.

When was this, and what was the issue? If you booked through us, and are unable to get any response from customer services, I'd be happy to see if I can give someone a prod.

That said, I suspect this was actually the TOC at fault, but without knowing the details it is difficult to comment.

To add to the irritation I was 2 hours late, so I got a full delay repay on the tickets themselves, and I could have been an hour earlier if I didn't have splits going a stupid route. It was extremely galling therefore to still be about 15 quid out on the cost of transaction fees. If I'd just bought full-price from the retailer I'd have got the whole lot back, and in fact I could have kept a nice little 5% cashback on the LNER website for my trouble.

It would be a lot better for Trainsplit to refund their transaction fees in such cases, since otherwise they're just not saving me money.

OK maybe in your case it's better to pay full price, on the basis that if you are delayed you will get more compensation.

As for the "stupid route", it is true we offer slower routes which are cheaper, but we also offer the fastest routes. Indeed, we consistently do so, despite train companies not always showing the fastest route (where it is not a permitted route, e.g. Glasgow to Leuchars via Dundee can be quicker than via Haymarket; we offer that but TOCs do not!).

I would advise people to check the itinerary before booking, but if you realise you booked a slower itinerary than you wanted, you can get a full refund within 2 hours.

If getting more back in Delay Repay, and not being offered cheaper but slower routes, and being able to earn cashback are more important to you than having cheaper fares, then perhaps we're not the site for you.

But it's surely a good thing that the choice is there, as others may prefer the option of lower fares, rather than wanting to maximise delay repay, cashback etc?

 

[MrJeeves]

In all seriousness, why use Trainline, when you can use our site? We either charge the same price as a TOC, or less!

Honestly, the booking process with some other retailers, including Trainline, can be significantly quicker and simpler for a simple journey.

Excluding TTL, some other retailers have other benefits like fee-free Advance changes with XC's TTL whitelabel or fee-free refunds on uncollected ToD bookings with GTR.

I mean I'll still use TrainSplit for almost anything else because of the number of options we have when planning a journey but if I'm stood in front of a station entrance needing a ticket within the next minute or two, I'll probably pick TTL in a hurry (especially in ScotRail territory!) at least until I make the Android app more usable.

 

[yorkie]

I used to use Trainline for Open Returns, but then they charged me an unexpected fee because I used a business card, so I've massively reduced my use of them since.

Now I have the option of open returns on Trainsplit, the main reason I used Trainline has now gone.

I think people like Trainline because it dumbs everything down; it's fine if you are happy to be tied to the itinerary and don't need to take notice of any T&Cs.

But what this really proves is that it's so subjective and it is absolutely the wrong thing for people to call for all these sites to be banned, with just a single retailer.

A single retailer, which would either be controlled by the TOCs or DfT, or some other body that wouldn't put customers first, would be a terrible move.

 

[bcarmicle]

A single retailer, controlled by the TOCs, would be a terrible move.

I agree, but I think having National Rail/RDG selling tickets instead of the individual TOCs would be good. Other retailers could exist if they found a business model, but at the same time, the taxpayer wouldn't have to pay for two dozen different TOC websites to sell tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, but I think having National Rail/RDG selling tickets instead of the individual TOCs would be good. Other retailers could exist if they found a business model, but at the same time, the taxpayer wouldn't have to pay for two dozen different TOC websites to sell tickets.

Agree. There should be one official site (avoiding costly duplication), but the APIs should remain available to any third party that wishes to do their own.

 

[yorkie]

I agree, but I think having National Rail/RDG selling tickets instead of the individual TOCs would be good. Other retailers could exist if they found a business model, but at the same time, the taxpayer wouldn't have to pay for two dozen different TOC websites to sell tickets.

Those who want RDG to have a monopoly are very misguided in my opinion, but having one RDG site for all TOCs wouldn't be a bad thing, providing third party retailers can continue to exist.

It would likely mean the loss of fee-free Advance changes on XC, cashback on the likes of LNER and so on. Also some people prefer the feel of particular sites (e.g. the old Atos WebTIS) and that would also be lost. But as long as anyone who was unhappy with the RDG offering has third party sites as an alternative, then overall that would be fine in my opinion.

 

[sheff1]

Those who want RDG to have a monopoly are very misguided in my opinion, but having one RDG site for all TOCs wouldn't be a bad thing, providing third party retailers can continue to exist.

It would likely mean the loss of fee-free Advance changes on XC, cashback on the likes of LNER and so on. Also some people prefer the feel of particular sites (e.g. the old Atos WebTIS) and that would also be lost. But as long as anyone who was unhappy with the RDG offering has third party sites as an alternative, then overall that would be fine in my opinion.

I can't agree. I use XC for Advances other than those bought just before travel, LNER if I am travelling with them and TPE/GWR for other walk up tickets avoiding the need to unnecessarily select trains. Losing fee-free changes, cashback and faff-free booking in one fell swoop would be a big negative for me.

 

[yorkie]

I can't agree. I use XC for Advances other than those bought just before travel, LNER if I am travelling with them and TPE/GWR for other walk up tickets avoiding the need to unnecessarily select trains. Losing fee-free changes, cashback and faff-free booking in one fell swoop would be a big negative for me.

But a huge saving of £millions for taxpayers!

 

[sheff1]

But a huge saving of £millions for taxpayers!

I am a taxpayer. I rather doubt my (or anbody elses) tax burden would decrease by even 1p due to one RDG site replacing the existing sites.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I am a taxpayer. I rather doubt my (or anbody elses) tax burden would decrease by even 1p due to one RDG site replacing the existing sites.

Making the railways a bit more efficient and a bit less wasteful is a good thing.

 

[yorkie]

I am a taxpayer. I rather doubt my (or anbody elses) tax burden would decrease by even 1p due to one RDG site replacing the existing sites.

True; the money saved by having multiple sites wouldn't result in lower taxes, it would be spent on something else.

 

[Krokodil]

There is no need for anyone to "play the system"; simply book with us to get a good price!

But that's still an example of needing to be 'in the know'. Splitting tickets (even with an app) can get complex when passengers don't have a firm itinerary for their return, and I've come across lots of cases (mostly Trainline, some TrainPal) where passengers haven't looked properly at the information presented to them - such as the list of ticket options Trainline provides with "Return same day" in large font or "must stop at X" in a smaller font. Worse is when TL mentions peak restrictions but won't tell you what they are.

I remember a family pre-pandemic who had booked tickets from Bangor to Manchester with a split at Shotton. At the time there was (and probably still is) only one train per day in each direction that went between Bangor and Manchester and stopped at Shotton. Obviously their outbound journey was fine as they'd used the journey planner and that had offered the split. On the way back though it wasn't valid and making it valid would have involved waiting an hour for a train that did stop and then waiting half an hour for the next train actually going to their destination. In the end one portion was excessed to a station the train did stop at.

People (down to the common or garden village idiot or foreign tourist) should be able to purchase a ticket at a reasonable price with no need to be savvy at all. Unfortunately as we've seen with LNER the government just use simplification as an excuse to level up the fares (and in this case levelling up is not a good thing!)

 

[yorkie]

But that's still an example of needing to be 'in the know'.

What do you mean by "in the know", and how could this be avoided?

Splitting tickets (even with an app) can get complex when passengers don't have a firm itinerary for their return, and I've come across lots of cases (mostly Trainline, some TrainPal) where passengers haven't looked properly at the information presented to them - such as the list of ticket options Trainline provides with "Return same day" in large font or "must stop at X" in a smaller font. Worse is when TL mentions peak restrictions but won't tell you what they are.

Some people like Trainline's simplicity, but the reality is that it achieves it by dumbing things down and hiding or obscuring important information.

I'm not sure what you are proposing, though?

I remember a family pre-pandemic who had booked tickets from Bangor to Manchester with a split at Shotton. At the time there was (and probably still is) only one train per day in each direction that went between Bangor and Manchester and stopped at Shotton. Obviously their outbound journey was fine as they'd used the journey planner and that had offered the split. On the way back though it wasn't valid and making it valid would have involved waiting an hour for a train that did stop and then waiting half an hour for the next train actually going to their destination. In the end one portion was excessed to a station the train did stop at.

You are describing a problem experienced with a booking made with Trainline, right?

That isn't justification for abolishing our site (if that is what you are suggesting).

People (down to the common or garden village idiot or foreign tourist) should be able to purchase a ticket at a reasonable price with no need to be savvy at all.

What do you mean by "being savvy" and how do you propose to avoid this?

Unfortunately as we've seen with LNER the government just use simplification as an excuse to level up the fares (and in this case levelling up is not a good thing!)

Exactly this.

If choice is taken away, people who currently pay affordable prices will be required to pay more; some will choose not to make the journey at all, others will drive.

 

[Hadders]

People (down to the common or garden village idiot or foreign tourist) should be able to purchase a ticket at a reasonable price with no need to be savvy at all.

I agree with you in principle, but years of observing what actually happens in reality has taught me that:

Unfortunately as we've seen with LNER the government just use simplification as an excuse to level up the fares (and in this case levelling up is not a good thing!)

Simplification results in people paying more. If 3rd party sites are banned then it would be even harder for passengers to make savings.

It is 3rd party retailers who have bought innovation to ticket retailing. You only have to look at the new nationalrail.co.uk to see what a single site would probably look like. To be fair the nationalised LNER site is one of the better ones but I bet this was largely planned and developed in the VTEC era.

 

[Krokodil]

What do you mean by "in the know", and how could this be avoided?

You need to know to use a particular (and fairly obscure in that case) site. You shouldn't need this, someone turning up to the TVM (they can be awful things to use under the current system) shouldn't be disadvantaged for doing so. Tickets should be reasonably priced all round.

I'm not sure what you are proposing, though?

Reasonably priced tickets.

You are describing a problem experienced with a booking made with Trainline, right?

I think it was TrainPal in that particular case, though either app could be subject to the same problem.

That isn't justification for abolishing our site (if that is what you are suggesting).

I don't believe that I have suggested that at any point, you must be confusing me with someone else. I'm simply continuing my argument that there should be no need to split tickets to get a reasonable price.

What do you mean by "being savvy" and how do you propose to avoid this?

It shouldn't be necessary to shop around or buy multiple tickets for a simple journey (often with no changes) to get reasonable prices.

Simplification results in people paying more.

Under this government certainly. Governments aren't forever though, maybe a more sensible bunch will replace this one (Where's Howling Laud Hope when you need him?)

 

[yorkie]

You need to know to use a particular (and fairly obscure in that case) site. You shouldn't need this, someone turning up to the TVM (they can be awful things to use under the current system) shouldn't be disadvantaged for doing so. Tickets should be reasonably priced all round.

I addressed that above.

Reasonably priced tickets

Feel free to post your proposals in a new thread.

I think it was TrainPal in that particular case, though either app could be subject to the same problem.

TrainPal wanted to work with us. I met someone from them and we rejected the idea.

Their site is nothing like ours and their ethic and method of doing things is completely different.

But it would be difficult to ban them from existing without negatively affecting customers.

I don't believe that I have suggested that at any point, you must be confusing me with someone else. I'm simply continuing my argument that there should be no need to split tickets to get a reasonable price.

But you are proposing changes which would have that effect.

However, there is no detail regarding how your proposals would work, so it's difficult to comment other than it wouldn't happen without increased subsidy which means it's not currently on the table.

It shouldn't be necessary to shop around or buy multiple tickets for a simple journey (often with no changes) to get reasonable prices.

Again please do propose how you would achieve this.

Under this government certainly. Governments aren't forever though, maybe a more sensible bunch will replace this one (Where's Howling Laud Hope when you need him?)

Ok I challenge you to create a thread in the appropriate section, where you explain how a future government could achieve this. We can debate the detail in such a thread.

But without that detail, the idea is currently meaningless and in the mean time I put it you they sites like ours need to exist. Anyone can use our site. No specialist knowledge is required.

To suggest a new fares structure is beyond the scope of this thread but I'd a subject I welcome, providing you make the proposals in the appropriate forum section.

I look forward to learning how your proposal could work. In the meantime, sites like ours provide an important service.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Are you suggesting Trainline is making up data?

No, I'm alluding to an experience I had with Trainline a few years back. I once was sold a ticket on a 08:35 York-Plymouth service (I was going as far as Exeter), turns out that the Plymouth service leaves at 08:44 and the Reading service leaves at 08:35. Quite a few people had this issue (most notably people going to Bristol) and there was a long queue at the LNER Information desk, ended up having to get the 08:35 to Birmingham and change onto the Plymouth service.