Disruption between Carlisle and Lockerbie - Attempted robbery of Mail train (01/08/2023)

[zwk500]

Sharing control log screenshots has become a big problem over the last few years and I have also heard rumours of staff with log-ins sharing their password with outside parties. Access to sensitive incidents and individual events within incidents can be restricted to users with elevated privileges only and I'm very surprised this wasn't done in this case. The software keeps a log of who views incidents, so they will be able to see exactly which users looked at it and when. I suspect there will be a significant review and tightening of control log access after this just as there was when the station building collapsed at Northwich

There was also a control log that made the rounds after the diesel train derailed in Wales. However I'm astonished to hear of password sharing with outside parties.

 

[357]

Sharing control log screenshots has become a big problem over the last few years and I have also heard rumours of staff with log-ins sharing their password with outside parties. Access to sensitive incidents and individual events within incidents can be restricted to users with elevated privileges only and I'm very surprised this wasn't done in this case. The software keeps a log of who views incidents, so they will be able to see exactly which users looked at it and when. I suspect there will be a significant review and tightening of control log access after this just as there was when the station building collapsed at Northwich

Agreed.

Long gone are the days when the control log was linked to on the company intranet and anyone could view it without logging in.

 

[Some guy]

They’re must’ve been special cargo onboard to attempt to rob a Royal Mail train as it would mainly be letters onboard

 

[357]

There was also a control log that made the rounds after the diesel train derailed in Wales. However I'm astonished to hear of password sharing with outside parties.

It's more common to have tyrellcheck logins shared. Personally I have access to 4 or 5 different companies internal disruption messaging systems.

Some years ago CCLDB was all the rage.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The Malicious Damage Act 1861 doesn't apply in Scotland.

There may be a Scottish equivalent though.

In Scotland there's an offence of malicious mischief, and that's included on the list of charges in the polis statement

 

[357]

They’re must’ve been special cargo onboard to attempt to rob a Royal Mail train as it would mainly be letters onboard

Turns out two teenagers from nearby children’s home smashed two signals to bring the train to a stand and then tried to rob it.

 

[Watershed]

These master criminals might be surprised to find that, if I understand correctly, they can be charged under Section 35 of The Malicious Damage Act 1861: penalty: life imprisonment. Interfering with signalling equipment is, rightly, seen as a serious matter. They are no Roger Cordrey.

Unfortunately it would appear that this offence, which describes the circumstances almost exactly, does not extend to Scotland:

Spoiler: Image text description

35 Placing wood, &c. on railway, with intent to obstruct or overthrow any engine, &c. E+W+N.I.
Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously cut, place, cast, or throw upon or across any railway any wood, stone, or other matter or thing, or shall unlawfully and maliciously take up, remove, or displace any rail, sleeper, or other matter or thing belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously turn, move, or divert any points or other machinery belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously make or show, hide or remove, any signal or light upon or near to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously do or cause to be done any other matter or thing, with intent, in any of the cases aforesaid, to obstruct, upset, overthrow, injure, or destroy any engine, tender, carriage, or truck using such railway, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be kept in penal servitude for life or to be imprisoned.

In any event, it is highly unlikely that either of these youths will be sent to prison (particularly the younger person, who is under 18).

 

[hexagon789]

In Scotland there's an offence of malicious mischief, and that's included on the list of charges in the polis statement

Thank you

Unfortunately it would appear that this offence, which describes the circumstances almost exactly, does not extend to Scotland:

View attachment 140140

Spoiler: Image text description

35 Placing wood, &c. on railway, with intent to obstruct or overthrow any engine, &c. E+W+N.I.
Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously cut, place, cast, or throw upon or across any railway any wood, stone, or other matter or thing, or shall unlawfully and maliciously take up, remove, or displace any rail, sleeper, or other matter or thing belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously turn, move, or divert any points or other machinery belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously make or show, hide or remove, any signal or light upon or near to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously do or cause to be done any other matter or thing, with intent, in any of the cases aforesaid, to obstruct, upset, overthrow, injure, or destroy any engine, tender, carriage, or truck using such railway, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be kept in penal servitude for life or to be imprisoned.

In any event, it is highly unlikely that either of these youths will be sent to prison (particularly the younger person, who is under 18).

See post #35

 

[Watershed]

See post #35

Posted whilst I was writing The Scottish common law offence seems less serious, but it's likely a moot point anyway, as I can't see a substantial sentence being handed out given the age of the suspects.

 

[hexagon789]

I can't see a substantial sentence being handed out given the age of the suspects.

Agreed. Seems unlikely even if it is theoretically possible.

 

[randyrippley]

There is a report being shared by various accounts on Twitter

now deleted

 

[Guard86]

Agreed.

Long gone are the days when the control log was linked to on the company intranet and anyone could view it without logging in.

You'll be surprised to know that you still can.

 

[Darandio]

now deleted

That particular one yes. It's still elsewhere on there.

 

[LUYMun]

Great Train Robbery 2.0 foiled

But it will be quite interesting to hear the story surrounding when more info comes out, as train robberies are very rare in this country.

 

[12LDA28C]

In this situation would it not have been better for the driver to just continue at caution past the signal (which he identified had clearly been tampered with) and drive in line of sight at 15mph to the next signal to ensure his own safety? Rather than staying put and potentially being attacked. I know railway safety is based on following strict rules and procedures for the safety of all, but surely he could have explained his actions later.

That's not the Rule Book procedure to follow if a signal is blank (ie showing no aspect). It must be treated as at danger, stopped at if possible and reported immediately.

 

[LRV3004]

Aren't they all LED signals up that way...???

No. I sign up to Carlisle and just beyond it as far as the DB yard at Kingmoor, and the majority of the signals in that area are the old bulb style signals.

 

[baz962]

That's not the Rule Book procedure to follow if a signal is blank (ie showing no aspect). It must be treated as at danger, stopped at if possible and reported immediately.

To be fair to the poster that was asking I think they meant that if that particular driver thought that their life was possibly at risk from the robbers.

 

[D6130]

No. I sign up to Carlisle and just beyond it as far as the DB yard at Kingmoor, and the majority of the signals in that area are the old bulb style signals.

Yes, the majority of the signals - until recently controlled from the now-closed Motherwell PSB - from Kirkpatrick Northwards were installed in 1972-73 and are still of the multi-lens double filament bulb type, with the exception of the Carstairs area, which was resignalled with LED units as part of the recent track remodelling scheme.

 

[computerSaysNo]

There is a report being shared by various accounts on Twitter

The link no longer works. Can you add a quote containing the original information at the link?

 

[JaJaWa]

The link no longer works. Can you add a quote containing the original information at the link?

I've removed the quote as the original link was removed. However searching 'mail train' on Twitter brings up various postings of the same report.

 

[DarloRich]

They’re must’ve been special cargo onboard to attempt to rob a Royal Mail train as it would mainly be letters onboard

I am not sure a 17 year old and 18 year old would have access to such intelligence. I suspect they thought they would nick a load of amazon parcels, find cool stuff and sell it on cheap! ( I further suspect all they found were bills and dominos flyers!)

 

[Gloster]

Unfortunately it would appear that this offence, which describes the circumstances almost exactly, does not extend to Scotland:

View attachment 140140

Spoiler: Image text description

35 Placing wood, &c. on railway, with intent to obstruct or overthrow any engine, &c. E+W+N.I.
Whosoever shall unlawfully and maliciously cut, place, cast, or throw upon or across any railway any wood, stone, or other matter or thing, or shall unlawfully and maliciously take up, remove, or displace any rail, sleeper, or other matter or thing belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously turn, move, or divert any points or other machinery belonging to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously make or show, hide or remove, any signal or light upon or near to any railway, or shall unlawfully and maliciously do or cause to be done any other matter or thing, with intent, in any of the cases aforesaid, to obstruct, upset, overthrow, injure, or destroy any engine, tender, carriage, or truck using such railway, shall be guilty of felony, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be kept in penal servitude for life or to be imprisoned.

In any event, it is highly unlikely that either of these youths will be sent to prison (particularly the younger person, who is under 18).

That occurred to me later.

I am not sure a 17 year old and 18 year old would have access to such intelligence. I suspect they thought they would nick a load of amazon parcels, find cool stuff and sell it on cheap! ( I further suspect all they found were bills and dominos flyers!)

Very much so. Probably hoping to find some iPhones, iPads or computer games that they could flog to some dodgy market trader.

 

[D6130]

That occurred to me later.



Very much so. Probably hoping to find some iPhones, iPads or computer games that they could flog to some dodgy market trader.

....possibly to pay their drug dealer, sadly?

 

[brad465]

Now got a BBC report:

Teenagers arrested over alleged mail train theft attempt

The suspects, aged 17 and 18, face various charges following the incident on a Royal Mail service at Lockerbie.

www.bbc.co.uk

Two teenagers have been arrested following an attempted robbery on a mail train in the south of Scotland.
British Transport Police said the alarm was raised at 01:42 following reports that two young men had gained access to a Royal Mail service at Lockerbie.
Officers said nothing was believed to have been stolen but a number of parcels were "interfered with".
A signal box was also damaged causing disruption on the west coast mainline, between Carlisle and Lockerbie.
As a result of the incident the lines between Carlisle and Lockerbie were closed.
A police spokesman said: "Officers attended and a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old were located in a carriage and arrested.
"At this stage it's not believed anything was stolen but a number of parcels in the carriage had been interfered with.
"Both young men have been charged with malicious mischief, theft and threatening and abusive behaviour."

 

[D6130]

Now got a BBC report:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-663734 [/UR

'A signal box was also damaged....' Really? I wasn't aware that there were any signalboxes on the Scottish section of the WCML South of Motherwell since the 1972-73 resignalling. What has happened to the standards of BBC journalism?

 

[Gloster]

'A signal box was also damaged....' Really? I wasn't aware that there were any signalboxes on the Scottish section of the WCML South of Motherwell since the 1972-73 resignalling. What has happened to the standards of BBC journalism?

Probably a relay cabinet: broke it open and then didn’t know which wire to rip out. Hopefully, they didn’t just grab a handful at random, but instead fiddled with the filament.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Probably watched a re-run if that film with Phil what's-is-face in it

Probably a relay cabinet: broke it open and then didn’t know which wire to rip out. Hopefully, they didn’t just grab a handful at random, but instead fiddled with the filament.

 

[Railsigns]

Probably a relay cabinet: broke it open and then didn’t know which wire to rip out. Hopefully, they didn’t just grab a handful at random, but instead fiddled with the filament.

Where the BBC says that a signal box was damaged, I think they meant to just say a signal was damaged (or two signals).

 

[dan4291]

Was wondering why the sleeper trains were late at Edinburgh. Bet there's a few unusual delay reports going in today!

 

[Darandio]

'A signal box was also damaged....' Really? I wasn't aware that there were any signalboxes on the Scottish section of the WCML South of Motherwell since the 1972-73 resignalling. What has happened to the standards of BBC journalism?

It's a box shape with signalling related equipment in it. Not acceptable terminology for the self-appointed forum expert but for the 99.9% of people reading the news who haven't got a clue? Seems perfectly acceptable to me.

This place can be pathetic at times when it comes to things like this.