Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[geoffk]

But when network rail clear the trees at side of lines, local NIMBYS going running up there councillors, and I’m sure Grant Shapps put a stop to NWR clearing them

Perhaps the events at Salisbury last October should have been a wake-up call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as anyone who's done any H&S training knows, the responsibility for H&S in a workplace is everybody's responsibility - the legislation is structured that way, so it isn't just the responsibility of "the boss". I'd hate to have somebody as dogmatic and inflexible as you working in my team.

You miss the point. The primary reason for workplace H&S is so that disreputable companies and individuals cannot undercut the market while working in a cheaper, less safe manner, thus making it uneconomic to do it properly and keep employees and customers safe. Like most regulation of this kind it provides a level playing field.

It is everyone's responsibility, which makes it more likely to be respected, but that is separate from why it exists.

 

[urpert]

Agreed, this self same thing happens every time someone sneezes on it.

To be honest I think it needs a full redevelopment a la Rugby. It is highly impractical in modern terms, having a layout that is not conducive to installing a gateline, having its main entrance on the side nobody uses unless arriving by taxi (the busiest access by far is the narrow Fishergate entrance and has been for years), having incredibly poor facilities and obviously having the roof fall down every time someone sneezes.

Would be a shame to lose the overall roof, but having waited there on many occasions it doesn't make it any less freezing cold and windswept!



That is just one I know exists and is likely to be running (Thameslink definitely is). There might be other better options, feel free to suggest one.

St Neots might work?

 

[Dunnideer]

Spot on. As an example, yesterday four separate reports of trees blocking the line across Lincolnshire in the space of 40 minutes. The trees were blocking three different routes, but there's only a couple of first response (Mobile Ops Managers) staff on duty, per shift. They can request additional support from maintenance staff, but if it's trees that need removing then those staff also have to be competent in the uses of chainsaws etc.

Some MOMs are chainsaw competent but the problem is you need a second person with them who is emergency first aid trained and you’re not supposed to use chainsaws in the dark without proper site lighting being set up. MOMs are generally single crewed (except on LNE East Coast Route where I’ve heard they’re double crewed all the time) so you need to either get someone from another area in or get someone in on their rest day to work overtime. Not impossible but can be tricky when there’s lots going on in a storm. I’m a MOM myself (not chainsaw competent) and I was asked to work my rest days for Eunice but I declined because I knew it would be chaos.

There are different levels of chainsaw competence to allow you to fell progressively larger and more difficult trees, and wind-blown trees are a seperate competence in their own right. You need to cut so many trees of each type per year to keep the competence up and you need all the special PPE to wear to keep you safe. It’s all very complicated and so NR has started removing chainsaw competence from MOMs as it’s difficult to comply with all the requirements and hard to justify the expense, it is better to use the dedicated Off Track and P-Way teams who are better resourced in terms of both manpower and equipment for this activity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

St Neots might work?

Yep, TL appears to be running there, and it is the same 905 bus.

 

[Sleepy]

Could be the bits either side.

XC have ran a Cambridge- Leicester service. Ely - Kings Lynn does badly in win. GN say numerous problems from letchworth - Cambridge. The sadly for people from Ely think XC can cover Ely.

1112 Kings Cross - Ely is now reinstated.

UPDATE about to depart 35 late.
UPDATE 2 now terminating at Cambridge.
Kings Lynn - Cambridge shuttles to start running.

 

[MikeWM]

There have been occasional stopping services from Letchworth to King's Cross at seemingly random intervals if they can find a way of getting there.

Or CrossCountry have managed to run a couple of trains from Cambridge to Peterborough this morning ... and then take LNER from there? Slow, and I imagine that would need two separate tickets and therefore be much more expensive than normal.

Indeed, so the track between Cambridge and Ely is clearly still there, at least. But last time I looked XC weren't planning to run east of Peterborough today, so were these just moving stock around after yesterday?

The communications from GN and GA (and NR) here are really not good, even taking into account the insane number of issues they are no doubt currently dealing with.

We can see that most major routes are now up and running to some degree, and/or we know specifics where there are still serious issues (eg. Preston).

But for both the two separate Cambridge to London routes, so far there has been no meaningful information about what the issues are, no indication when the routes are likely to reopen, and no particular alternatives offered. That's really quite poor.

 

[TheDavibob]

Are there any options for someone to get from Cambridge to London today? (asking for another forum member)

My train from York to London is very busy but on time and no sign of any disruption at the moment.

My partner is going via the busway and Huntingdon, things are moving on the ECML.

 

[Dunnideer]

There are different levels of chainsaw competence to allow you to fell progressively larger and more difficult trees, and wind-blown trees are a seperate competence in their own right. You need to cut so many trees of each type per year to keep the competence up and you need all the special PPE to wear to keep you safe. It’s all very complicated and so NR has started removing chainsaw competence from MOMs as it’s difficult to comply with all the requirements and hard to justify the expense, it is better to use the dedicated Off Track and P-Way teams who are better resourced in terms of both manpower and equipment for this activity.

I should also have added it‘s really easy to seriously injure or kill yourself with a chainsaw, or drop a tree in the wrong place on top of something or someone, so it’s a very high risk activity. I think the company is right to remove MOMs chainsaw competence because it is not the sort of thing you want to be having a go at once in a blue moon. You need to be doing it on a regular basis, the Off Track dept are cutting trees every single day so they are really experienced professionals on the railway. It makes sense to me to use Off Track and P-Way for tree clearance and supplement them with the various specialist railway vegetation contractors as needed during big storms. That way the MOMs can focus on operational recovery such as evacuating trapped trains, removing obstructions from the OLE etc..

 

[Sleepy]

Indeed, so the track between Cambridge and Ely is clearly still there, at least. But last time I looked XC weren't planning to run east of Peterborough today, so were these just moving stock around after yesterday?

The communications from GN and GA (and NR) here are really not good, even taking into account the insane number of issues they are no doubt currently dealing with.

We can see that most major routes are now up and running to some degree, and/or we know specifics where there are still serious issues (eg. Preston).

But for both the two separate Cambridge to London routes, so far there has been no meaningful information about what the issues are, no indication when the routes are likely to reopen, and no particular alternatives offered. That's really quite poor.

Regarding GA several quite big repair jobs to OHL Stansted area and power faults at Ugley to name just 2. GN just starting to run. #966

 

[800001]

Perhaps the events at Salisbury last October should have been a wake-up call.

Correct and I fully agree. The MPs and transport minister should back NWR every step of the way.

 

[matthewluck]

Just got off an Avanti train at Oxenholme. Passengers were being asked to leave the train at Carlisle (10:50 departure as it was over it's weight limit and could not move. Not many did leave the train, eventually it did get going.

At Oxenholme passengers were being asked not to board due to the train being over it's weight limit, a few did though.

This is the first time I've experienced this issue. Of course this is due to everyone needing to travel today due to the storms.

 

[dk1]

Just got off an Avanti train at Oxenholme. Passengers were being asked to leave the train at Carlisle (10:50 departure as it was over it's weight limit and could not move. Not many did leave the train, eventually it did get going.

At Oxenholme passengers were being asked not to board due to the train being over it's weight limit, a few did though.

This is the first time I've experienced this issue. Of course this is due to everyone needing to travel today due to the storms.

I was always under the impression it just couldn’t tilt if over the limit. Conventional 110mph non EPS should be possible.

 

[matthewluck]

I was always under the impression it just couldn’t tilt if over the limit. Conventional 110mph non EPS should be possible.

It did manage to tilt. Was just very slow to get going and leave stations. Eventually getting up to speed.

 

[MH211]

On an Avanti to Euston which left Crewe an hour late. This is the second one I attempted to board, the first had reached capacity. Many many announcements of train cancellations or delays of 70+ minutes on all TOCs. Just hope that the remaining 1hr 20 window in London will be enough to make my Eurostar!

 

[dk1]

It did manage to tilt. Was just very slow to get going and leave stations. Eventually getting up to speed.

Must’ve been rail adhesion or speed restrictions. Being overloaded shouldn’t affect acceleration.

 

[Alfie1014]

Yes in GA land at Burnham-on-Crouch and Thorpe-le-Soken stranded trains tangled with OHL are still waiting removal.

37601 to the rescue at Thorpe first to collect 720566 to return to Colchester then back for 321324.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On an Avanti to Euston which left Crewe an hour late. This is the second one I attempted to board, the first had reached capacity. Many many announcements of train cancellations or delays of 70+ minutes on all TOCs. Just hope that the remaining 1hr 20 window in London will be enough to make my Eurostar!

It takes 15 minutes at most to walk from Euston to St P so I think you will be fine

 

[TPO]

Indeed. How many times has this forum seen hyperbole about how over-the-top "DO NOT TRAVEL" in recent years? Yet almost always events have proven that travel was indeed extemely difficult and highly disrupted often for the entirety of the day and into the next one.

It was indeed, however this wasn't just a railway message- there was the same message being given out across the road network. Unfortunately, a certain level of numpties always think they know better which is why there are snow-gates in some places in the north. Which also make it difficult for locals who are accustomed to the bad conditions and equipped for it. Many (most?) people these days have little understanding of coping with conditions and believe that their magical toy will save them (whereas a typical fashion 4x4 SUV is generally useless in snow as on wide alloys not proper snow types/chains and not enough ground clearance).

I do think that we need to be making more of the argument of the benefits that lower level shrubland of the sort suited to the railway lineside, makes to wildlife.

Agreed. The m-way network re-opened very quickly after the storm as the only thing to shift was a handful of toppled trucks. The m-way network (and major A-roads) do tree removal very thoroughly (and also promote verges as wildflower meadow type corridors and plant small young trees after removing the big stuff, I spend a lot of time on the main road network so see it at first hand).

Quite the day for rail, and really interesting to see how different TOCs handled it. People are giving trees on the rail a lot of hate but realistically if it wasn't a tree it would be some other object.

If there's one thing that stood out to me, it's people travelling despite warnings not to and advance notice of this weather. I feel that some TOCs aren't helping to push this message by continuing to run services up until it's a health and safety issue, given that these trains could be stranded. Overall, things could have been much worse, so there's that to be grateful for, and the staff especially did an excellent job of weathering the social media storm.

Although as I said upthread, the road network was also saying "do not travel" and the majority complied. The M5 northbound out of the southwest was very busy on Thursday evening- I suspect it was the Friday afternoon holiday returners coming home earlier to avoid the weather. Looking at the on-line CCTV of the main road network, the main roads were very quiet on Friday. Yet there will always be some who expect to travel come what may as they haven't grasped that even in the modern world, nature can be extremely powerful.

There is a big problem with potential stranding when these things happen. We saw this with the Lewisham snow incident when the railway carried a load of people into London and couldn’t get them out again.

Personally I’d have run some first trains today to cater for shift workers, but suspended the service after about 0700. That would then have maximised the opportunity to resume in the early evening if the infrastructure allowed, whilst at the same time minimising the risk of trains getting damaged. I’d suggest the weather forecasting was accurate enough to have allowed this plan to be made.

The “run come what may” attitude doesn’t resolve the problem of stranding people, as in many cases it means you simply end up not getting where they wanted to be anyway, damaging assets, injuring passengers and staff, and possibly prolonging any restart.

The problem I think is also worsened due to train operators of late cancelling trains at the drop of a hat, so there can be a perception of "here we go again another lame excuse for cancelling trains" whereas many of those people will not have noticed the wider warnings (buses, roads, airports).

Apart from both Severn Bridges being closed, lorries blown onto their sides blocking motorways, buses running into falling trees.... Oh, and 3 people killed by trees striking their vehicles.



If trains had continued to run, even if at a reduced level and at lower speed, there would have been far greater disruption: Sooner or later, trains would have struck trees or debris, and electric trains would have become stranded with the overhead wires (OLE) down. Then staff would have to be sent to attend to those incidents and, in still horrendous conditions, either make the trains fit to move, or more likely evacuate passengers onto the ballast and somehow get them, safely, to somewhere onward transport can, somehow, be arranged.

Then, removing an electric train which has struck say a tree and got its pantograph entangled with the OLE is a complex operation, requiring staff to go on top of the train to secure the pantograph down and make the OLE fit to run trains under. Something has to be sourced to haul the stricken train away, most likely a diesel loco which will require a Driver with route knowledge, firstly to go to the depot where an emergency coupling can be fitted, and then to get to the train, which may well be on a passenger-only route with therefore very few loco Drivers passed for the line, so needing another Driver to route-conduct them. And, an issue which affected such operations towards the end of my career was the operator of the assisting loco requiring their Driver to have 'traction handling experience', ie knowing how to haul a dead EMU !

Eventually this will all have been arranged, taking up a lot of resources, and Control time, and the stranded train will be removed. However, other incidents occurred during the severe weather but lines could not be examined because they were blocked by stranded trains, and the resources, locos, Drivers, OLE/PW staff etc required to carry out line exams, debris clearance and repairs had to be utilised to rescue those trains.

I remain in no doubt that Scotrail's decision did drastically reduce the overall level of disruption, the one thing I think could have been done differently was to advertise last train departure times, on key routes at least, eg 'Our services will shut down by 1600 today, the last train from Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen St will be the 1445, from Glasgow Central to Ayr the 1504', etc.

Yes, it was the first time the Second Severn Crossing has been closed due to wind since it opened. (The original Severn Bridge is regularly closed when it's windy). I was quite surprised the Kenfig Viaduct (where the HGVs fell over on the M4 in south Wales) was not closed, as they had also closed the new Briton Ferry Bridge (which is much higher and more exposed than the old Briton Ferry Bridge) and there is an alternative route on the A48.

While the law won't allow them to withdraw the basic Road Traffic Act cover, it actually surprises me that car insurance contracts don't withdraw the fully comprehensive part of the cover if driving in an area where a red weather warning has been declared, as the chance of damage requiring such a claim (e.g. from a tree) is high.

I would not be surprised if the drivers of the toppled HGVs were charged with something like "driving without due care and attention" and I am not sure what the DVLA will say to the Operating Licence holders.......

I meant they could get through floods unless the water was deep enough to put the fire out. The fire risk from steam meant that lineside vegetation was not allowed to get out of control.

Another issue with floods now on the railway is that the signalling system tends to be shorted out by water, track circuits/axle counters don't tend to work properly underwater whereas in the "old days" most signalling was wires, rods and cranks which is less effected by water. Yes, the lineside fires also tended to keep vegetation down and if a lineside resident had moaned about cutting trees down then unless is was someone like the local bishop (or another of the "great and good") the railway would ignore them and for the latter would probably send a politely worded letter of explanation- and then ignore them.

Also- the public tolerance for risk is much lower not compared to the 1960's accompanied by a lack of willingness to take responsibility. People who set out on a journey in the 1960's in bad conditions generally accepted that if they got stranded, that was the consequence of their choice- and wouldn't be ranting about the train company or expecting compensation. Less travel overall then too, and journeys were less reliable whether by train or car (or bus). Different times.

TPO

 

[bramling]

Regarding GA several quite big repair jobs to OHL Stansted area and power faults at Ugley to name just 2. GN just starting to run. #966

GN now running 2tph Horsham-Peterborough as per normal timetable, albeit with cancellations. Nothing on Cambridge-Brighton as far as I can see. 2Cxx services very thin on the ground and so far none have gone north of Letchworth. 1Txx services just starting by the looks of it.

Must say I’m utterly sick of the weather in this country. Since the long settled spell which coincided with the 2020 lockdown, it has been near constant rubbish in one form of another, in particular long periods of blocking patterns where one type of weather is “locked in” for many days.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Looks like GA have reinstated services to Hertford East, though they're being routed through a brand new station called "Seven Seven Sisters" according to their website.

 

[Sleepy]

37601 to the rescue at Thorpe first to collect 720566 to return to Colchester then back for 321324.

Is 321324 2J26 or 2nd train at Thorpe ?

 

[Starmill]

Being overloaded shouldn’t affect acceleration.

One would hope so far a Pendolino. Although for some of the older DMUs it was another matter! Haha

 

[syorksdeano]

Preston Station now partially reopen

 

[MikeWM]

Regarding GA several quite big repair jobs to OHL Stansted area and power faults at Ugley to name just 2. GN just starting to run. #966

Thank you for some actual information.

Seems to me it would be easy enough to say something like 'the storm has caused serious damage to the overhead lines and so no service is likely to be able to run today'. Currently all GA are saying on their website is 'due to high winds some lines are closed', which at this point isn't entirely helpful.

Watching the progress of the 1112 off KGX on Traksy, as I don't seem to have anything much else to do today!

 

[dk1]

One would hope so far a Pendolino. Although for some of the older DMUs it was another matter! Haha

The 105s across the Fens in a head wind also spring to mind.

 

[Alfie1014]

Is 321324 2J26 or 2nd train at Thorpe ?

Second train at Thorpe according to photos published on the GANews Twitter feed.


Link https://twitter.com/greaterangliapr/status/1494698937256718340?s=21

 

[SCDR_WMR]

National Rail was indicating that Preston was closed until at least 1030 for inspections. Now updated to 1600

“Preston station will remain closed, as the roof undergoes a safety inspection. Trains will not call at the station. Passengers are advised DO NOT TRAVEL to or from Preston until after 16:00.”

The Preston to Blackpool South branch is running a shuttle turning at Kirkham & Wesham. Some services have run as far as St Anne’s to try to get back to some sort of schedule

I'm currently on a train to Preston on the WCML, pretty sure train will stop there as Avanti are terminating there

 

[stew]

I'm currently on a train to Preston on the WCML, pretty sure train will stop there as Avanti are terminating there

Update at 12:17

Current service disruptions:

Preston station has now reopened following a safety inspection of the station roof. Platforms 4, 5 and 6 will still remain closed to passengers.

Rail replacement transport is still available between Wigan North Western, Preston. Carlisle and Lancaster. Please allow extra time for your journey.

 

[Sleepy]

Thank you for some actual information.

Seems to me it would be easy enough to say something like 'the storm has caused serious damage to the overhead lines and so no service is likely to be able to run today'. Currently all GA are saying on their website is 'due to high winds some lines are closed', which at this point isn't entirely helpful.

Watching the progress of the 1112 off KGX on Traksy, as I don't seem to have anything much else to do today!

From what I experienced yesterday GA is very much in the hands of Network Rail regarding repairs & routes re-opening, if the information is slow to come from work sites not much info. can be passed on.