Do the railways need a separate police force

[Mutant Lemming]

If you do away with the specialist forces you will need to create specialist sections within the other forces to cover their work.

 

[Flamingo]

On the whole, that is correct, but one specific TOC is massively in profit as a result of their prosecution policy, to the point where it is more profitable to the company for people NOT to pay their fare.

Do tell which one (and give the evidence to back it).

 

[NSEFAN]

On the whole, that is correct, but one specific TOC is massively in profit as a result of their prosecution policy, to the point where it is more profitable to the company for people NOT to pay their fare.

Would this be FCC by any chance?

 

[HST Power]

On the whole, that is correct, but one specific TOC is massively in profit as a result of their prosecution policy, to the point where it is more profitable to the company for people NOT to pay their fare.

Really? Can you tell us which one?

If it's FCC I'm going to be laughing all day.....

 

[Swirlz]

Do tell which one (and give the evidence to back it).

It is First Capital Connect.

I'm not sure how you expect me to evidence it, but fare evasion detected there is at around 1.5%.

Passenger Focus says in 2010 there were 90 million passenger journeys.

Even if each of those detected just had to pay a £20 Penalty Fare, you would have 1,350,000 x £20 = £27,000,000.

Consider that FCC from anecdotal evidence seem to want £100+ to settle out of court, even 25% of those passengers, 337,500 x £100 = £33,750,000.

Not in profit?

Their revenue protection dept must be earning at least £50,000,000, (before expenses).

 

[Flamingo]

Ok, so it's just your opinion then, and some guesswork.

 

[fenview]

Do the Germans, Italians, Swiss, Japanese have railway police forces?

 

[transmanche]

Do the Germans, Italians, Swiss, Japanese have railway police forces?

The Germans used to have Bahnpolizei, but this has been merged into a larger Bundespolizei - also responsible for airports, border protection, counter-terrorism and some other national tasks.

 

[Hellfire]

What about say, MoD Police or the CNC?

Not sure about these two, they are VERY specialised. Both of these are set up under completely different legislation to other forces. MoD Plod is responsible to the MOD while the CNC works under the Department of Energy.

 

[the sniper]

Do the Germans, Italians, Swiss, Japanese have railway police forces?

The Italians do like us. The Swiss/SBB/CFF/FFS have actually only recently formed their specialist railway police force, having previous relied upon private security and the powers that rail staff had. Bizarrely their uniform seems to me to have been modelled on the BTPs uniform, as their tac-vests are almost exactly the same as the BTP one! The German situation has been explained and I don't believe that JR have one.

More details on Europe's railway policing can be found on the RailPol site here: https://www.railpol.eu/site/home If you click on on the 'Members' tab you can see details of how each nations railways are policed, it ranges from dedicated forces to specialist divisions of national forces.

Internationally speaking, India has the largest railway police force, I believe. The Chinese Ministry of Railways also has a large Police force. All the US freight rail companies have their own Police forces and so do Amtrak. The Canadian companies also have their own Police forces.

 

[Mojo]

I'd be very surprised if Capital Connect managed to detect 337,500 travel irregularities in a year. My company has an irregularity rate of 2.5%, over 12 times as many journeys as Capital Connect, yet only around 35,000 Penalty fares or prosecutions per year.

 

[HST Power]

FCC are without a doubt the worst company I have ever experienced for checking tickets. I did hear that they were supposedly going to be 'clamping down' on fare dodgers, but considering that I've probably had my tickets checked about three of four times in the past six years (and that's not an exaggeration) I'm yet to see any evidence. Half the time the ticket barriers are either downed or unmanned anyway.

 

[TheEdge]

Not sure about these two, they are VERY specialised. Both of these are set up under completely different legislation to other forces. MoD Plod is responsible to the MOD while the CNC works under the Department of Energy.

I'd say that the BTP are more specialised than both the MoD and CNC. Those two are special forces but to the best of my knowledge they are the same as civil officers just more routinely armed and tasked with very specific areas of responsibility.

The BTP however have all the training of a civil police force plus the training in all railway relevant areas (PTS etc)

 

[jon0844]

FCC are without a doubt the worst company I have ever experienced for checking tickets. I did hear that they were supposedly going to be 'clamping down' on fare dodgers, but considering that I've probably had my tickets checked about three of four times in the past six years (and that's not an exaggeration) I'm yet to see any evidence. Half the time the ticket barriers are either downed or unmanned anyway.

While you might occasionally find a station has open gates when they should be manned, I know for a fact that RPIs (and that includes gateline staff) are very regularly moved around to support large stings at key locations. So when you don't see FCC RPIs at your local station, or doing random checks onboard your train, it's most probably a reason that isn't what you assumed.

They are being very proactive at the moment and have been for some years. The lack of checks on trains doesn't match my own experience either. I've had some days where I've been checked on every train I've used in a single day, plus the gates.

 

[RPM]

One area where having the BTP is distinctly advantageous for the railway is in the aftermath of suicides. Control staff always hope the BTP make it to the scene first - they are experienced in dealing with the situation and are focussed on getting the trains running again. When the local police attend they can often act as if they've got all day to conduct an investigation and traumatised drivers are sometimes treated like criminals, until the BTP arrive and take over.

 

[Prairie_5542]

I heard a rumour that the BTP were going to be Policing airports soon!?

 

[Mojo]

How does it work in areas with regards to policing Light rail/Metro systems? I know the BTP operate on the DLR, Underground, London Tramlink as well as Midland Metro, but that the local police forces look after Metrolink Manchester and Tyne/Wear Metro (although do BTP look after the Network Rail sections?) What is the situation on the Glasgow Subway and other Tramways?

 

[reb0118]

What is the situation on the Glasgow Subway............

Don't quote me but I think BTP cover the Subway too.

 

[Mike395]

It's a bit of a mix for the Glasgow Subway - I think BTP are used as the first port of call if they're nearby or for planned crowd control, but for emergencies it's sometimes easier to get hold of divisional officers at short notice, so they're used more than on, say, the London Underground

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If there are any BTP officers/HO officers on here who would be willing to answer my question I'd be grateful!

If I call for police backup through EOC from a tube station/railway station, does that reach the BTP, or does it go to the local HO force (in my case the Met). Or do the Met pass the call onto the BTP?

 

[the sniper]

I heard a rumour that the BTP were going to be Policing airports soon!?

As I believe I said earlier in the thread, that's the more regularly talked about one these days, it seems.

How does it work in areas with regards to policing Light rail/Metro systems? I know the BTP operate on the DLR, Underground, London Tramlink as well as Midland Metro, but that the local police forces look after Metrolink Manchester and Tyne/Wear Metro (although do BTP look after the Network Rail sections?) What is the situation on the Glasgow Subway and other Tramways?

Honestly, I don't know a great deal about it, but I believe things like the Midland Metro enter into a voluntary service agreement with the BTP, in which the Metro will pay BTP a yearly sum for their services. Obviously in the case of the Metro it was probably Centro who required this of the Metro operator.

In the case of DLR and Tramlink, as TfL are one of the biggest funders of the BTP (only second behind NR, I believe), coverage of DLR & Tramlink are probably just an extension of LU's coverage deal.

 

[Lawman]

One area where having the BTP is distinctly advantageous for the railway is in the aftermath of suicides. Control staff always hope the BTP make it to the scene first - they are experienced in dealing with the situation and are focussed on getting the trains running again. When the local police attend they can often act as if they've got all day to conduct an investigation and traumatised drivers are sometimes treated like criminals, until the BTP arrive and take over.

The only issue regarding Btp is that they are a small organisation.First and foremost they are Police OFficers who have a specialist knowledge of the Railway Industry.In Scotland our 8 territorial forces have know merged.l personally believe that Btp could merge into this new service and officers be allocated to a division with their knowledge of the Rail industry.l am of the opinion that although Btp is a national force run from London,l think that they would be more than happy to let the scottish government take over this role.I think it unfair to suggest that the local police can attend Rail incidents and spend all day with the investigation,and treat train drivers like criminals.Local police fully understand the the role Btp play in Rail incidents and the need to expedite the incidents.Btp and local police work well together and l see no reason why Btp could not be integrated into Police Scotland.......Money would be saved,that's the bottom line nowadays
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there are any BTP officers/HO officers on here who would be willing to answer my question I'd be grateful!

If I call for police backup through EOC from a tube station/railway station, does that reach the BTP, or does it go to the local HO force (in my case the Met). Or do the Met pass the call onto the BTP?

Your call would be sent in the first instance to Btp.lf Btp are are not in a position to attend immediately,ie no free units or some distance away then the local Police would attend with the possibility of Btp following up any enquiry required,hope that helps

 

[AlexS]

Sorry chap - civil police do not know railways. I had two turn up vice BTP for a trespass incident and their first action was to try and clear off, in the dark, on their own, wearing black uniforms on an open 110 mph railway to look for signs of the bloke. I told them they'd likely end up dead themselves and they stayed on the platform and awaited instruction from the signaller and NR MOM. If I'd not met them on their way down to the ramp anything could have happened.

 

[Mojo]

The report I've linked to below, whilst admittedly a few years out of date, highlights the overstretched nature of the BTP in the South East. At least a few changes since then have been made, for example the Mayor funded 50 new BTP officers for Toc stations in 2009 and some more PCSOs for the Underground were funded last year.

When the report was published London Underground & DLR had 662 officers, whereas the London North division had 215 officers and London South 212. Maybe not a problem when you consider the lower passenger numbers maybe, but London North area covers as far away as Norwich, and London South covers Poole! Response times must clearly be an issue.

legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/reports/transport/safer_stations.pdf

 

[OuterDistant]

Sorry chap - civil police do not know railways. I had two turn up vice BTP for a trespass incident and their first action was to try and clear off, in the dark, on their own, wearing black uniforms on an open 110 mph railway to look for signs of the bloke. I told them they'd likely end up dead themselves and they stayed on the platform and awaited instruction from the signaller and NR MOM. If I'd not met them on their way down to the ramp anything could have happened.

It's going back a bit, but the report into the Luton collision in 1976 makes interesting reading. ASLEF formally protested to the inquiry that staff trying to carry out protection were obstructed by local police officers asking for their names and addresses, and that they'd also tried to examine the signalling equipment.

 

[Lawman]

Sorry chap - civil police do not know railways. I had two turn up vice BTP for a trespass incident and their first action was to try and clear off, in the dark, on their own, wearing black uniforms on an open 110 mph railway to look for signs of the bloke. I told them they'd likely end up dead themselves and they stayed on the platform and awaited instruction from the signaller and NR MOM. If I'd not met them on their way down to the ramp anything could have happened.

Although l can not comment on the incident that you are talking about because l do not know the full facts,l can confirm that local police are fully aware of procedures at railway stations regarding health and safety.There are clear and strict guidelines directed to home office forces and scottish forces from ACPO and ACPOS which clearly state that no officer must attend on railway lines unless clearance has been authorised by Network Rail.Even when an officer is chasing an offender and the offender runs onto the line,then the officer would stand down.its that simple.An officer may go onto the line if there is a life or death situation however that decision would be a judgment call on the officer involved,to conclude its unfair to suggest local police are not aware of Railway procedure.

 

[inner-city]

I saw Transport Police in Paddington stn today - one had an automatic rifle.

 

[Flamingo]

I saw Transport Police in Paddington stn today - one had an automatic rifle.

Scary, isn't it!

 

[ainsworth74]

Scary, isn't it!

I'd have thought as a rare bird (for the UK) you'd be especially worried! I'd imagine there's more than a few BTP officers who'd fancy having a stuffed flamingo over the mantle piece, or am I thinking of your passengers

 

[Flamingo]

Oh, plenty of passengers with invalid tickets have thought they had me stuffed - hasn't happened yet, though