Doors closing - your views on the behaviour of a guard

[yorkie]

Hi, I've been a member of these forums for a while and used to post but haven't done for years - so I doubt any of you will remember me!

Hi Jonny,

Yes I remember you; it's been a while since I last saw you (2008 perhaps? on a XC HST?), but good to see you back

Unfortunately, without seeing what happened, it is just too difficult to judge IMO.

 

[313103]

I have had it on many occasions when a passenger has forced the doors open and then they dont shut again, meaning that the train is then immediatley terminated at that point and the safety systems in place have to be isolated so the train can move with doors open. So 1 passenger causes a cancelled train and a delay to the other 200 or so passenegers that were also on board. When they ask me what the problem is i often tell them to ask that person overthere as there action is what caused the problem.

On trains with sensors if the door will attempt to shut three times before they remain open for another two minutes. Now if if you have a passenger who causes this you will eventually have been delayed three minutes, and in that three minutes you will of had another twenty to fifty people trying to squeese into that one door, now it is all cramed because no one can be bothered to move down the train and then at every station you get the that set of doors trying to shut at least two times before they do which causes more delay that you often end up running in the path of the train behind. I just get on the pa and say 'the delay has not been caused by the train company but by one or two peoples selfish actions at (you name the station)'.

 

[Tracky]

SAFE dispatch takes time...

At Birmingham New Street the Platform Staff let the box know when a train is ready to go. At the right time, he will then signal the guard to close doors, or on some units signal the guard to tell the driver to close doors. He will then obtain the ready to start signal from the guard and give an RA. It all has to be done by the book and should not be interupted. If it is, the delay could run up to 120 or 180 seconds... a lifetime at New Street.

As for the doors close x seconds before departure, units trains take different lengths of time to safely dispatch and diferent stations have diferent methods.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Whe alighting at some request stations in devon they will let you out of the back cab door as it saves them opening all the doors on the train Newton St Cyres is one example that i know of as ive done it to alight

and that would get a Conductor discliplned

 

[JoeGJ1984]

and that would get a Conductor discliplned

I thought sometimes the guard only opens the local door (which can be the rear cab door) at some stations with short platforms (one example is The Lakes, a request stop on the line from Birmingham Moor Street to Stratford-upon-Avon - while the 150s ran, if using a 150/1, then I think the guard would have used the rear slam cab door). I would think opening all the doors on a short platform would result in getting disciplined, which seems like he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't! (Unless I'm missing something).

 

[Anon Mouse]

I thought sometimes the guard only opens the local door (which can be the rear cab door) at some stations with short platforms (one example is The Lakes, a request stop on the line from Birmingham Moor Street to Stratford-upon-Avon - while the 150s ran, if using a 150/1, then I think the guard would have used the rear slam cab door). I would think opening all the doors on a short platform would result in getting disciplined, which seems like he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't! (Unless I'm missing something).

Passengers are not permitted under any circumstances to enter the driving cab. On most units there are passenger doors that the guard can operate so a local passenger door can be opened.

 

[BestWestern]

I thought sometimes the guard only opens the local door (which can be the rear cab door) at some stations with short platforms (one example is The Lakes, a request stop on the line from Birmingham Moor Street to Stratford-upon-Avon - while the 150s ran, if using a 150/1, then I think the guard would have used the rear slam cab door). I would think opening all the doors on a short platform would result in getting disciplined, which seems like he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't! (Unless I'm missing something).

The 'local door' would generally be a door used by passengers, i.e. a main bodyside door leading into a vestibule or directly into the passenger saloon. On a 150/1 things are slightly different, as the hinged crew door will be used instead, which is not generally intended for passenger use. However, any passengers boarding there should be immediately directed through the vestibule door into the saloon prior to the train setting off, and no alighting passengers should be permitted into the vestibule until the train has stopped, as it is essentially a non-public part of the train. A 'cab door' though would be a door leading straight into the actual driving cab itself, as found on some classes of multiple unit, and would most definitely not be used for loading passengers!

 

[Marvin]

we have rules we have to follow, whether people like it or not.

Sums up everything that's wrong with the railway, in my opinion.

 

[Ferret]

Sums up everything that's wrong with the railway, in my opinion.

And that post there sums things up for me too - damned if you follow the rules and damned if you don't, as that Merseyrail Conductor may find to his cost.

 

[OliverS]

Passengers are not permitted under any circumstances to enter the driving cab. On most units there are passenger doors that the guard can operate so a local passenger door can be opened.

Around 10 years ago I, and several other passengers, were let on via the rear cab (of the front unit). But it was exceptional circumstances. It was at The Hythe in Colchester and it was one of those days where something has gone badly wrong. They kindly stopped an extra train for us but it was overlength and the 321s didn't have SDO so they couldn't open the doors. After about a minute when you could see the guard thinking about what to do they just let us all on via the rear cab. I have no idea whether they contacted control but it seemed like a sensible solution...

 

[Matt Taylor]

Sums up everything that's wrong with the railway, in my opinion.

Can you expand on that please? Are you seriously suggesting that we should just hang around waiting for those who want to join the train at their leisure?

If people want to travel like that they should consider getting a taxi.

 

[Bungle73]

Sums up everything that's wrong with the railway, in my opinion.

Everything that's "wrong"? That there are rules in place to the benefit of the majority and ensure everyone's safety?

 

[Ferret]

Everything that's "wrong"? That there are rules in place to ensure the benefit and safety of the majority?

I know Bungle. Still I'm so glad we have a large collection of armchair experts who are able to tell us where we're all going wrong!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sums up everything that's wrong with the railway, in my opinion.

I agree, it's pure stupidity and utterly incorrect that the railway would try and keep passengers and staff safe by telling
people what they can and can't do.


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[Marvin]

Can you expand on that please?

I hate the way too many railway staff care only about the rules, rather than about the needs of their passengers. I hate the way there's no flexibility whatsoever, rather than a willingness to do things differently if the circumstances require it.

There aren't enough people like the guard at University who let me get on the train through the rear cab when he'd just pushed the button to lock the main doors. No harm done and one happy passenger, but I bet he'll get nothing but criticism for breaking some rule or other rather than praise for good customer service.

Are you seriously suggesting that we should just hang around waiting for those who want to join the train at their leisure?

If someone's sprinting down the platform to get to the train then why not hang on for a few seconds to let them get on? It's not like thirty seconds is going to make a difference when delays don't even get counted as such unless they're over ten minutes.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

delays don't even get counted as such unless they're over ten minutes.

How wrong you are...


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[Minstral25]

Rules for rules sake is generally not the best way to run a railway service.

I do agree there are situations where rules need to apply and passengers should not obstruct or damage railway property.

Closing the doors at exactly 30 seconds before should be managed properly. Platform staff could advise running passengers the train doors are being locked/shut and save them running for the train. They could also help passengers walking down long platforms by asking them to hurry up or holding the train until they get there.

I don't believe a 10 or 15 second delay to do some customer service and let a couple of people close to a train on departure will cause massive delays on most lines, especially with the massive delay allowance in the timetables.

In the case I described earlier the Guard waited whilst we walked 50 yards along a platform before shutting the doors virtually in our face. Next to his door was a member of platform staff - either of whom could have asked us to hurry up or blown a whistle to give us more urgency - that's customer service. They must of both been aware that the service from Clapham Junction is hourly.

 

[Matt Taylor]

How wrong you are...

I quite often get a 'Please explain' for delays of just one minute. Every minute does count, I knly need to two minutes late approaching New Malden Junction and I will have missed my slot onto the mainline, this soon becomes a five minute delay or more depending on when the signaller can fit me in.

Furthermore every single minute of delay has to be attributed somewhere.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I agree, it's pure stupidity and utterly incorrect that the railway would try and keep passengers and staff safe by telling
people what they can and can't do.

And we are all jobsworths by doing it!

seriously though, each delay has to be explained and if the guard delays a service because of passengers WITHOUT the permission of contril the buck stops at us, thats the way it is as staff we cannot change that, so passengers have 2 choices

either be on time

or miss the train and wait for the next one

 

[90019]

I hate the way too many railway staff care only about the rules, rather than about the needs of their passengers.

Why should 200 passengers already on the train be delayed for the sake of one who is late?

 

[Tracky]

My trainers daily comment

Safety - Customer Service - Revenue

In that order and with extreme emphisis on SAFETY

 

[313103]

I hate the way too many railway staff care only about the rules, rather than about the needs of their passengers. I hate the way there's no flexibility whatsoever, rather than a willingness to do things differently if the circumstances require it.

So what your saying Marvin is that we should forget the rules and care only for the needs of the passenger. Perhaps you didnt read my message, but if i delay the train for 1 passenger to get on What about the other 200 already on board, should i have cared for them first or for the one passenger ambling up the platform?

There aren't enough people like the guard at University who let me get on the train through the rear cab when he'd just pushed the button to lock the main doors. No harm done and one happy passenger, but I bet he'll get nothing but criticism for breaking some rule or other rather than praise for good customer service.

Actually Marvin the Guard would not get criticised just disciplined by the railway company, but that is okay with you because the Guard wasnt following rule book instructions on allowing members of public onto a train in the incorrect way!

You say no harm done, thats fine this time, however what if the guard allowed you through that same way and you fell or slipped? You would call up a ambulance chaser, say the Guard let me through that way, sue the company, get the Guard sacked and win a couple of grand because the railway company has to admit responsibility. Trust me you think this doesnt happen, i know that it does. So therefore i will not allow anyone through a rear cab if i am working from that area.

If someone's sprinting down the platform to get to the train then why not hang on for a few seconds to let them get on? It's not like thirty seconds is going to make a difference when delays don't even get counted as such unless they're over ten minutes.

So if someone is sprinting (your words not mine) it means they are late or havent allowed corrrect connection time if they are changing trains. If i wait a few seconds say 20 at every station we stopped at all stations so that is about 25 stations per journey, that would my train 10 minutes late at its destination which means it already failed PPM which for LO is FIVE minutes not ten, and that is without the delay now caused to the next service because in the rush hour we run every 7 to 8 minute frequencys and then there are delays to other freight services. I have seen the cost of a one minute late departure from Willesden Junction cost LO £57,000 in fines, as that one minute late departure caused a freight train to lose its path and get delayed further enroute. The reason why LO paid the fine is because it was there company that caused the original delay.hat something you have forgotten about in this world that is all about me!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

My trainers daily comment

Safety - Customer Service - Revenue

In that order and with extreme emphisis on SAFETY

That used to be, Still is and always will be the 3 golden rules (in that order)

and so it should be!

 

[exile]

Why should 200 passengers already on the train be delayed for the sake of one who is late?

What about the empty train (eg at Oxenholme) with 50 people running to catch it?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What about the empty train (eg at Oxenholme) with 50 people running to catch it?

so if that train leaves say 2 minutes late, which then delays another train at a junction further down the line which causes say a 5 minute delay (domino effect time) would that be ok? thats one of the many issues about "holding trains" with delay attribution and fines TOC's will do their utmost not to make delays and thats why persons like myselfs have to be strict (and yes most of us do sympathise) but we have no choice!

 

[CarterUSM]

My trainers daily comment

Safety - Customer Service - Revenue

In that order and with extreme emphisis on SAFETY

That's what they say, but it's not always what they mean. What they mean is, "don't upset the punters".

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That's what they say, but it's not always what they mean. What they mean is, "don't upset the punters".

and make sure they pay!

 

[NathanPrior]

Tried doing this on the Northern Line at London Bridge, platform guard tried to stop me, but I kept going...got caught halfway into the doors, it hurt like hell but at least it gave the carriage a good laugh.

 

[Tracky]

That's what they say, but it's not always what they mean.

Leaving revenue aside, I will risk being slated for poor customer service over any risk to safety.

 

[jopsuk]

Platform staff could advise running passengers the train doors are being locked/shut and save them running for the train.

I regularly see people start running when the whistle- which is after all a warning that the doors are being closed- is being blown. I see people do this having just come through the barriers at Cambridge- due to the crossover, even the nearest carriage on platforms 1 or 4 is a good 50m or more. The platform's often busy. They always seem upset when they get to the train just as it starts moving- even when the train is five-ten minutes late.

There's no pleasing idiots.