Doors closing - your views on the behaviour of a guard

[CarterUSM]

Leaving revenue aside, I will risk being slated for poor customer service over any risk to safety.

Yep, cos that's exactly what'll happen. Damned if you do, etc etc.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Leaving revenue aside, I will risk being slated for poor customer service over any risk to safety.

Agree with this 100%. I will ignore anybody who is trying to distract me while I am despatching a train.

It's no accident (excuse the pun) that we have had only one fatal accident in the last seven years on the UK network.

 

[CarterUSM]

I agree with it also Matt, I just get disappointed with being spoon fed hypocrisy by certain people.

 

[Marvin]

So what your saying Marvin is that we should forget the rules and care only for the needs of the passenger. Perhaps you didnt read my message, but if i delay the train for 1 passenger to get on What about the other 200 already on board, should i have cared for them first or for the one passenger ambling up the platform?

Like I said, I doubt thirty seconds will bother anyone.

Actually Marvin the Guard would not get criticised just disciplined by the railway company, but that is okay with you because the Guard wasnt following rule book instructions on allowing members of public onto a train in the incorrect way!

It's not OK with me at all. The rule itself should be changed so that no such discipline would occur.

You say no harm done, thats fine this time, however what if the guard allowed you through that same way and you fell or slipped?

Nothing different to what would happen if I fell or slipped while getting on through the normal doors.

You would call up a ambulance chaser, say the Guard let me through that way, sue the company, get the Guard sacked and win a couple of grand because the railway company has to admit responsibility.

No I wouldn't. And if I did I should be laughed out of court. The compensation culture in this country is blinking ludicrous and I really wish someone in government would have the guts to stand up to it and say that if someone trips over like that then it's their own stupid fault for not paying attention to what they were doing.

Trust me you think this doesnt happen, i know that it does.

Yes, and it's wrong. Don't make the mistake of assuming I'm only complaining about the end result of such a messed up culture.

So if someone is sprinting (your words not mine) it means they are late or havent allowed corrrect connection time if they are changing trains.

Or their incoming connection was late. Or the traffic was terrible. Why assume laziness? Have you never been late getting somewhere for reasons completely out of your control?

If i wait a few seconds say 20 at every station we stopped at all stations so that is about 25 stations per journey

Would you really need to wait at every one? I doubt it.

I have seen the cost of a one minute late departure from Willesden Junction cost LO £57,000 in fines, as that one minute late departure caused a freight train to lose its path and get delayed further enroute.

More stupid fines for no good reason. What the hell is wrong with this country?

 

[OliverS]

I have seen the cost of a one minute late departure from Willesden Junction cost LO £57,000 in fines, as that one minute late departure caused a freight train to lose its path and get delayed further enroute.

More stupid fines for no good reason. What the hell is wrong with this country?

Actually in this case it is an attempt to make the railways run on time. I won't say it is the best way, or even a good way, but at least they are trying to make the timetable work.

Saying "Just a minute here or there won't matter" is misguided, the timetable can't afford that and so the railway needs to ensure that the timetable is followed. Hence fines. Note that the fine is aimed not at the railwaymen on the front line but at their managers who should put policies in place to make sure that the trains do run on time. I.e. it is an institutionalised recognition that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[tempests1]

Actually in this case it is an attempt to make the railways run on time. I won't say it is the best way, or even a good way, but at least they are trying to make the timetable work.

Saying "Just a minute here or there won't matter" is misguided, the timetable can't afford that and so the railway needs to ensure that the timetable is followed. Hence fines. Note that the fine is aimed not at the railwaymen on the front line but at their managers who should put policies in place to make sure that the trains do run on time. I.e. it is an institutionalised recognition that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Agreed. On the face of it Trust Delay Attribution seems bad but lets look at the good points.
It encourages train operators/NWR to have robust plans in place such as SWT's Right Time Railway, & during service disruption service recovery plans/manuals. There is no greater incentive to ensure good practice than to impose financial penalties if the standards are not reached and this benefits the passenger. Imagine if as a result of the odd minute or to the train reaches a junction late as so loses it's path as it is regulated for an on time service. Obviously it will incur more delay. As others have said even sub threshold delay minutes (up to two minutes) sometimes need investigation if it results in a threshold delay (3 minutes) to another service(s). If the same train/trains are being delayed day after day It is good to investigate the reasons behind this which could be anything maybe the schedule/timetable is poor and unworkable. Maybe the platform staff are holding it for late running passengers there could be a thousand different reasons but it's purpose it to try and improve things and make the railway a more punctual place.

Like I said, I doubt thirty seconds will bother anyone.

Yes, and it's wrong. Don't make the mistake of assuming I'm only complaining about the end result of such a messed up culture.

Or their incoming connection was late. Or the traffic was terrible. Why assume laziness? Have you never been late getting somewhere for reasons completely out of your control?

More stupid fines for no good reason. What the hell is wrong with this country?

Marvin - In this case I don't think there is anything wrong with the majority of passengers being catered for. If you have any questions about delay attribution post them as I am sure someone on the forum will be able to answer them.

 

[DownSouth]

Actually in this case it is an attempt to make the railways run on time. I won't say it is the best way, or even a good way, but at least they are trying to make the timetable work.

Saying "Just a minute here or there won't matter" is misguided, the timetable can't afford that and so the railway needs to ensure that the timetable is followed. Hence fines. Note that the fine is aimed not at the railwaymen on the front line but at their managers who should put policies in place to make sure that the trains do run on time. I.e. it is an institutionalised recognition that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I agree with delay fines. When an operator of a train does not get the network access they paid for, they deserve to get at least some portion of the money back. That money has to come from somewhere, and the ideal 'somewhere' is the entity which caused the delay.

In the case of freight trains or open access passenger trains being delayed (and potentially delayed again further up the line as a result) by franchised passenger trains, this is where it's most important that delay money be paid because they have to pay their own way as opposed to running a franchise.

 

[exile]

so if that train leaves say 2 minutes late, which then delays another train at a junction further down the line which causes say a 5 minute delay (domino effect time) would that be ok? thats one of the many issues about "holding trains" with delay attribution and fines TOC's will do their utmost not to make delays and thats why persons like myselfs have to be strict (and yes most of us do sympathise) but we have no choice!

Since the Windermere branch is a "siding" the only train it can delay is itself. As long as it gets back to Windermere in time to turn round and be on time back at Oxenholme there shouldn't be an issue.

There is, or should be, a difference between the rules applied on branch lines with infrequent service, where the majority of passengers are connecting and not local, and a line with frequent trains where the passenger will only have to wait minutes for the next service.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Since the Windermere branch is a "siding" the only train it can delay is itself. As long as it gets back to Windermere in time to turn round and be on time back at Oxenholme there shouldn't be an issue.

There is, or should be, a difference between the rules applied on branch lines with infrequent service, where the majority of passengers are connecting and not local, and a line with frequent trains where the passenger will only have to wait minutes for the next service.

so then we have a myriad of different rules for different lines, it just wouldn't work, the current system works well, changing it not only would it cause a myriad of more problems it would be unworkable

 

[Tommy3000]

I understand why staff stick to the rules (namely keeping passengers safe in spite of themselves), but there are some proper jerks out there.

I was visiting Northern Ireland recently and found myself running for a train after my connecting bus was delayed. Their timetable is barebones, so you've got a wait on your hands if you miss a train.

All of the doors were open and the conductor was standing in the door closest to the platform entrance. He'd just checked the length of the train and had his hand on the keys to close the doors when he saw me. I made it to the door and he moved to physically block me.

"Can I get on?"
"No, you should have been here earlier."
"I, uh, why can't I get on now?"
"You should have been here before the train was due to leave."

He then turned the keys and stayed in my way until the doors closed.

I guess customer service isn't NIR's speciality.

 

[DownSouth]

Since the Windermere branch is a "siding" the only train it can delay is itself. As long as it gets back to Windermere in time to turn round and be on time back at Oxenholme there shouldn't be an issue.

There is, or should be, a difference between the rules applied on branch lines with infrequent service, where the majority of passengers are connecting and not local, and a line with frequent trains where the passenger will only have to wait minutes for the next service.

I agree. For isolated lines, more appropriate operational practices should be developed to eradicate the influence of operational convenience.

so then we have a myriad of different rules for different lines, it just wouldn't work, the current system works well, changing it not only would it cause a myriad of more problems it would be unworkable

:roll:

This says so much about the decline of [Great?] Britain. No capacity left to innovate or do what needs to be done to get the right solution to a problem.

I wish whichever coach companies operates Oxenholme-Windermere good luck, hopefully they've got people who have the creativity to turn the railway's inflexibility into their opportunity.

 

[Bungle73]

I agree. For isolated lines, more appropriate operational practices should be developed to eradicate the influence of operational convenience.

:roll:

This says so much about the decline of [Great?] Britain. No capacity left to innovate or do what needs to be done to get the right solution to a problem.

I wish whichever coach companies operates Oxenholme-Windermere good luck, hopefully they've got people who have the creativity to turn the railway's inflexibility into their opportunity.

I like the way people go on about the "decline" of Great (and making a big deal out of that word like it was some kind medal for the country) Britain when things aren't done exactly the way the want them to done, even though it would case more problems than it solves.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I like the way people go on about the "decline" of Great (and making a big deal out of that word like it was some kind medal for the country) Britain when things aren't done exactly the way the want them to done, even though it would case more problems than it solves.

I totally agree with you Bungle, Britain hasn't ever really been Great but it is a country I am proud to be a part of. back on Topic so some posters feel it is perfectly acceptable to delay a train because someone is late? OK then could they please explain that to passengers on my trains who have other connections to make and whom are relying on myself to keep their train on time as much as possible or would that be too much of an inconvenience?

 

[Tracky]

I dont think Delay Atribution and charges (charges, not fines) are bad in the main. Things have changed since BR. In the main BR had far fewer trains and many fewer conflicts. It was easy to pay out overtime and nothing had to be justified. I don't think that led to a better service to the customer or better value for money to the tax-payer.

 

[Greenback]

I totally agree with you Bungle, Britain hasn't ever really been Great but it is a country I am proud to be a part of. back on Topic so some posters feel it is perfectly acceptable to delay a train because someone is late? OK then could they please explain that to passengers on my trains who have other connections to make and whom are relying on myself to keep their train on time as much as possible or would that be too much of an inconvenience?

Indeed, that is the most powerful argument in favour of the current system.

I have been on quite a few trains that have waited for stragglers. Fortunately, on only one occasion was I needing to make a relatively tight connection myself, but I didn't make it thanks to the train waiting for people to board at several stations en route. Yes, it was only a few seconds here and there, but it cost me an hour's delay.

 

[Anon Mouse]

and a min or so at one station can result in the loss of a path leading to an express train following a stopper which will have a knock on effect at the next main station result in more lost connections, then maybe a late start from the terminus on the return journey....

 

[junglejames]

I hate the way too many railway staff care only about the rules, rather than about the needs of their passengers. I hate the way there's no flexibility whatsoever, rather than a willingness to do things differently if the circumstances require it.

There aren't enough people like the guard at University who let me get on the train through the rear cab when he'd just pushed the button to lock the main doors. No harm done and one happy passenger, but I bet he'll get nothing but criticism for breaking some rule or other rather than praise for good customer service.



If someone's sprinting down the platform to get to the train then why not hang on for a few seconds to let them get on? It's not like thirty seconds is going to make a difference when delays don't even get counted as such unless they're over ten minutes.

You are partly right, but also partly wrong.
Yes there is less flexibility. But that is not the fault of the guard. That is the fault of the privatised railway and the TOCs.

To say a 30 sec delay is no problem though, is quite incorrect. It can all add up. If its a small branch line with few trains, say in Cornwall, then ok, 30secs may not make much difference. But anywhere else, and it will.
Yes the guard at University did do a good thing, but unfortunately because of the way the world is now, it is diffcult to do this sort of thing. You cant blame guards.

Most of what we have heard on here though, is of those arrogant passengers that try and push onto trains when doors are closing. This is stupid and arrogant. The train is not there for one person.

Years ago when we had decent trains down in Kent (Slam doors), Myself, my brother, and my mum were running for a train at Charing X. My brother and I made it, just, but my mum was lagging behind.
My brother opened the door and held it open just as the train was waiting to leave. My brother cared little, and would have kept the door held open. However, I told him to close it and step back. This, combined with the guard shouting at him, eventually persuaded him to close it.
We were late, we had to accept that, and we missed the train.
It wasnt the guards fault, and it wasnt the TOCs fault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so then we have a myriad of different rules for different lines, it just wouldn't work, the current system works well, changing it not only would it cause a myriad of more problems it would be unworkable

You dont need loads of different ruels as such. Just a bit more flexibility on certain lines (if possible). This has to be at the guards discression, and the TOC has to give guards more power for this sort of thing.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I got shouted at by a guard for force opening a Voyager door as it left Preston for Brum New Street and that was fair. I guess what happened at New Street was fair, not like there's not just one way to get to your destination from there! (If it was somewhere more remote, it would be unfair)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You are partly right, but also partly wrong.
Yes there is less flexibility. But that is not the fault of the guard. That is the fault of the privatised railway and the TOCs.

To say a 30 sec delay is no problem though, is quite incorrect. It can all add up. If its a small branch line with few trains, say in Cornwall, then ok, 30secs may not make much difference. But anywhere else, and it will.
Yes the guard at University did do a good thing, but unfortunately because of the way the world is now, it is diffcult to do this sort of thing. You cant blame guards.

Most of what we have heard on here though, is of those arrogant passengers that try and push onto trains when doors are closing. This is stupid and arrogant. The train is not there for one person.

Years ago when we had decent trains down in Kent (Slam doors), Myself, my brother, and my mum were running for a train at Charing X. My brother and I made it, just, but my mum was lagging behind.
My brother opened the door and held it open just as the train was waiting to leave. My brother cared little, and would have kept the door held open. However, I told him to close it and step back. This, combined with the guard shouting at him, eventually persuaded him to close it.
We were late, we had to accept that, and we missed the train.
It wasnt the guards fault, and it wasnt the TOCs fault.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You dont need loads of different ruels as such. Just a bit more flexibility on certain lines (if possible). This has to be at the guards discression, and the TOC has to give guards more power for this sort of thing.

I'm pretty certain TOC's will not give us lowly guards powers to cost them a packet for late passengers convenience, will never happen and if anyone thinks it will they are living in cloud cuckoo land, delays cost money and TOC's want to save not spend.

 

[Tracky]

The guard can only see the situation at the station he is at. He cannot see the impact further down the line. He cannot see the "big picture".

Windermere is unusual. If I was working a train from Oxenholme, and knew I had enough turn around time at the end to soak up a delay I might be tempted to do it off my own back. Virtually anywhere else, it is near imposible for the guard to fully understand the impact of a few mins.

 

[David]

I got shouted at by a guard for force opening a Voyager door as it left Preston for Brum New Street and that was fair. I guess what happened at New Street was fair, not like there's not just one way to get to your destination from there! (If it was somewhere more remote, it would be unfair)

Regardless of the location, it's not acceptable to force open a door on a train. It can, and has led to a door interlocking failure which means the train then has to be taken out of service. Meanwhile the TOC concerned gets hit by a PPM failure plus the delay repay forms from however many passengers.

Anyway, getting back to the subject of delays impacting other services ....

A good example is the Scunthorpe - Doncaster line. If the Manchester bound TPE service is 5 minutes late, then it will delay the following Hull - Sheffield service which is booked to use P3b at Doncaster when the TPE departs. That then departs late, and guess what, the XC service to Reading which is booked to leave Doncaster 4 minutes behind the Northern service also gets delayed. Straight away your looking at 20+ minutes of delays just for those 3 services. Addon any delays to EC or freight services that are due to pass Doncaster around same time period, and it very quickly mounts up. I'm not going to try and add up potential delays to those services affected at other parts of the country, as it can snowball out of control very quickly.

 

[Marvin]

Yes there is less flexibility. But that is not the fault of the guard. That is the fault of the privatised railway and the TOCs.

I'm sure it is, but that doesn't stop it being a problem.

 

[Minstral25]

Reading this conversation it is obvious there are many different situations. At the end of the day the railway needs to make customers feel like they are being looked after and some of the actions of both railway staff being jobsworths and passengers when late are unacceptable.

To example this, watching passengers walk up a long platform with heavy bags and then shut the door in their face just as they get to the train is unacceptable. Equally running on a platform forcing doors open and breaking interlock is equally unacceptable.

At Kings Cross in the good old days before ticket barriers and with slam doors platform staff used to close access to the platform shortly before the train was due to set off, apologising and saying the train is ready to leave now so you will have to catch the next one. It was personal and managed properly.

Now due to effective lack of platform staff as they are overfocussed on safety and ability to close off trains due to ticket gates there is no personal management and passengers try to get trains they shouldn't.

It needs the TOC's to think about how trains are dispatched and how best to use staff to do this. Putting up signs saying 30 seconds or 40 seconds or 2 hours and 10 minutes will never make the passenger feel look after - in fact the opposite.

And I'd question a 1 minute delay costing £27,000 - that indeed is absolutely ridiculous as that fine would probably be imposed daily. All services have delay built into the timetable - how do they make it on time and it is unlikely that a train will have to wait to assist a passenger at every station so there should be enough slack in the timetable. That is indeed why you have limited numbers of trains that can run a route. Where there is potential conflict most services have slack in the timetable just before the point of conflict to ensure they arrive there in good time.

 

[DownSouth]

And I'd question a 1 minute delay costing £27,000 - that indeed is absolutely ridiculous as that fine would probably be imposed daily. ... Where there is potential conflict most services have slack in the timetable just before the point of conflict to ensure they arrive there in good time.

It's not the one minute delay costing £27,000 but rather all the knock-on delays caused by it. That one minute delay could then cause a freight train running on time to lose more than one minute by stopping at a signal and accelerating back to cruising speed again, which in turn could delay a different passenger train even more etc ...

Regardless of whether it's a freight or passenger train, when the operator does not get the track access they paid for it is right for them to be compensated.

The issue with padding/slack is that while it does allow for a service to arrive at a point early, it doesn't really solve the problem of what happens when a service is held up for whatever reason and is unable to depart on schedule.

 

[Michael.Y]

This situation is fine at one in one out stations on a line, but at stations like Newport or Shrewsbury where two or three lines converge with all sorts of services arriving within 10 minutes means that you're not just delaying yourself, you're delaying other, innocent parties on sometimes completely different lines. Also you may be forced to use a different platform (a 7:35am NWP-Milford service had to come in on the normally eastbound platform 3 last week due to a late running FGW) which in itself presents problems for traffic coming from the other direction.

 

[Minstral25]

It's not the one minute delay costing £27,000 but rather all the knock-on delays caused by it. That one minute delay could then cause a freight train running on time to lose more than one minute by stopping at a signal and accelerating back to cruising speed again, which in turn could delay a different passenger train even more etc ...

Regardless of whether it's a freight or passenger train, when the operator does not get the track access they paid for it is right for them to be compensated.

The issue with padding/slack is that while it does allow for a service to arrive at a point early, it doesn't really solve the problem of what happens when a service is held up for whatever reason and is unable to depart on schedule.

Frankly that is ridiculous as trains are regularly 1-5 minutes late on the routes I travel which includes the WLL, so £27,000 must be paid out several times a day.

If it is true which I doubt, then that signifies a major fault with UK railways as the only people who will win are the lawyers and claims adjusters.

Timetablers are also at fault if they are timetabling trains that tightly along routes - they should allow some working slack to make sure it doesn't all gum up but actually I am sure they do which is why we cannot get more desperately needed trains down through Herne Hill in the peak

 

[bb21]

Tried doing this on the Northern Line at London Bridge, platform guard tried to stop me, but I kept going...got caught halfway into the doors, it hurt like hell but at least it gave the carriage a good laugh.

What a stupid thing to do! If you broke the doors then no one would be going anywhere.

Like I said, I doubt thirty seconds will bother anyone.

Just because it doesn't bother you does not mean there is no potential impact on other services. Many others have demonstrated how a 1-minute delay can snowball into something massive in a short period of time.

Nothing different to what would happen if I fell or slipped while getting on through the normal doors.

There is. The guard would not have been liable if you slipped while boarding through a passenger door.

No I wouldn't. And if I did I should be laughed out of court. The compensation culture in this country is blinking ludicrous and I really wish someone in government would have the guts to stand up to it and say that if someone trips over like that then it's their own stupid fault for not paying attention to what they were doing.

Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean it is the case across board with other people. I agree that the compensation culture we have these days is ridiculous.

Or their incoming connection was late. Or the traffic was terrible. Why assume laziness? Have you never been late getting somewhere for reasons completely out of your control?

Then this is part of life. Get the next connection. There is no foolproof method to ensure that a connection is made. It doesn't matter how long you leave for a connection, there is always a risk that you can miss it.

Would you really need to wait at every one? I doubt it.

How do you know otherwise, if every passenger takes the same view?

Since the Windermere branch is a "siding" the only train it can delay is itself. As long as it gets back to Windermere in time to turn round and be on time back at Oxenholme there shouldn't be an issue.

There is, or should be, a difference between the rules applied on branch lines with infrequent service, where the majority of passengers are connecting and not local, and a line with frequent trains where the passenger will only have to wait minutes for the next service.

I think on a branch line where there is no interference with other services, guards should be given more discretion, and in most cases I think guards are more accommodating towards people who are running and nearly there, however this is not a passenger right.

I got shouted at by a guard for force opening a Voyager door as it left Preston for Brum New Street and that was fair.

You tried to force open the doors of a Voyager when it is moving? :roll:

Timetablers are also at fault if they are timetabling trains that tightly along routes - they should allow some working slack to make sure it doesn't all gum up but actually I am sure they do which is why we cannot get more desperately needed trains down through Herne Hill in the peak

The network is already at capacity and we're still short due to growing demand. Are you suggesting that we put more slack into the timetable and run less trains?

 

[EM2]

Frankly that is ridiculous as trains are regularly 1-5 minutes late on the routes I travel which includes the WLL, so £27,000 must be paid out several times a day.

Not necessarily.
If the actions of a TOC only delay their trains, then there is no charge to be paid.

 

[junglejames]

I'm pretty certain TOC's will not give us lowly guards powers to cost them a packet for late passengers convenience, will never happen and if anyone thinks it will they are living in cloud cuckoo land, delays cost money and TOC's want to save not spend.

I dont quite mean causing delays. But on a lot of branch lines, you could be a little bit more lax in the event of someone running for the train, and still not be late. Or certainly not by very much.
But as you say, delays are delays no matter what line it is, so it wont happen. Unfortunately just one of the inflexibilities of the railway nowadays.

 

[455driver]

I only need to two minutes late approaching New Malden Junction and I will have missed my slot onto the mainline,

Or delay me on an up Woking bay or New liner resulting in me running on single yellows at 25mph while you make your stops at New Malden and Raynes Park instead of 60mph making me about 5 minutes late, which delays the train behind me etc etc, that 5 minutes you are late will end up being about 25 minutes by the time all the knock on delays aree added up.

this soon becomes a five minute delay or more depending on when the signaller can fit me in.

Plus the knock on delays to the following services which will be held to allow you to slot in.

Furthermore every single minute of delay has to be attributed somewhere.

Yeah dont we bloody know it.

I just wish all these "I cant see it" merchants would get a job on the railway then they would "see it".