Doubling back - Swindon

[soil]

TCBC claims that the following route is not permitted because of doubling back, presumably between Swindon and Wootton Basset Junction:

Worcester Fgt St 0 Worcester Group
Malvern Link 6.79
Great Malvern 7.93
Colwall 10.76
Ledbury 14.9
Hereford 28.71 HEREFORD
Abergavenny 52.85
Pontypool&Newinn 62.15
Cwmbran 65.14
Newport (S.Wales) 72.13 NEWPORT (S.WALES)
Severn Tunnel Jn 81.96
Pilning 88.92
Patchway 92.48
Filton Abbeywood 93.86 Bristol Group
Stapleton Road 96.79 Bristol Group
Lawrence Hill 97.37 Bristol Group
Bristol Temple M 98.4 Bristol Group
Keynsham 103
Oldfield Park 108.89
Bath Spa 109.9 BATH SPA
Chippenham 122.84 CHIPPENHAM
Swindon (Wilts) 139.5 SWINDON (WILTS)
Bristol Parkway 173.99 Bristol Group

Is this doubling back?

 

[bb21]

In my opinion, you are doubling back between Bristol Group and Swindon.

I appreciate that you are not doubling back at any particular station. Did we ever agree on whether the passenger may leave the destination group once it has been reached?

 

[soil]

In my opinion, you are doubling back between Bristol Group and Swindon.

I appreciate that you are not doubling back at any particular station. Did we ever agree on whether the passenger may leave the destination group once it has been reached?

Doubling back is defined in Step 7.

"If a single code is indicated the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey)."

Passing through the same station twice.

It later adds:

"Journeys may not double back except between stations which are members of a routeing point group for interchange or unless an easement permits it"

Therefore a routeing point group makes doubling back more permissive - it doesn't restrict it further.

An SDS from Gatwick Airport to London St. Pancras, route Not Underground will arrive at London Bridge, which is in the destination group, pass through Blackfriars and City Thameslink (likewise), before exiting the group at Farringdon, and then re-entering it at St Pancras.

 

[LexyBoy]

There is no double back in my opinion (if there is then there are two, at Newport and Swindon).

I would say that it's not valid due to leaving the destination routeing group.

edit: good point soil, though since in that example the ticket's destination is specifically St Pancras, you're still taking the shortest route from your destination routeing group to the destination station, which in the example in the OP would be Filton (or Temple Meads since you're not leaving Bristol Group between them) to Parkway. But I could be wrong.

 

[island]

What are the origin and destination on the ticket?

 

[soil]

What are the origin and destination on the ticket?

Worcester Stations - Bristol Parkway

 

[island]

Is there a category called "not valid because it's taking the p**s"?

 

[John @ home]

There is no double back in my opinion.

Agreed.

I would say that it's not valid due to leaving the destination routeing group.

I'm not aware of any rule which prevents leaving the destination routeing group in order to reach the destination station. For some journeys, such as Shotts to Motherwell on a Sunday, it's necessary.

 

[Flamingo]

Is there a category called "not valid because it's taking the p**s"?

There bloody-well should be!

 

[bb21]

I'm not aware of any rule which prevents leaving the destination routeing group in order to reach the destination station. For some journeys, such as Shotts to Motherwell on a Sunday, it's necessary.

I have been looking for evidence that the passenger may not be permitted to leave the destination group once it is reached as I am not too sure about it, however I cannot find any.

I had the Bradford example in mind however I do not believe it applies in this case as the ticket would be issued to Bristol Parkway, not Bristol Stations.

Is it intended to be valid like this? I don't think it is. Is there anything to say it is not valid? I can't find any so am prepared to accept that it is valid.

 

[LexyBoy]

It's probably one of those things which is not spelled out but implied.

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).

(emphasis mine)

My reading is that you've reached the final routeing point when you've traced a route to it: reaching it is the point when you stop with the maps.

Of course the "not taking the P**s" check comes into it; if it's a reasonable route (or the only route) then it won't be questionned.

In the Shotts-Motherwell example, the route via Bellshill would be the shortest route with a passenger service wouldn't it? (Not wishing to reopen the "regular scheduled service" debate)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There bloody-well should be!

I believe EMT have the opposite rule

 

[Flamingo]

If I found somebody on my train between Bri & Swi with that ticket, I would be getting my Avantex out, unless said person had the I's dotted and T's crossed with their paperwork relating to the routing, and could show it to me. I'm fairly sure that the same would go for my colleagues.

Sorry if that upsets anybody, (and I don't want to hear all about how we should know the routing guide in our sleep, and if in doubt we must accept it) but it's what'll happen in the real world.

 

[soil]

It's probably one of those things which is not spelled out but implied.

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).

(emphasis mine)

My reading is that you've reached the final routeing point when you've traced a route to it: reaching it is the point when you stop with the maps.

But I have traced a route to it.

A route that goes through the same point twice is still a route.

They don't say 'Your route must not pass through the same routeing point twice'.

They do say "without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey)."

 

[455driver]

So I can buy a Newton Abbott to Salisbury ticket and go
Newton Abbott, Birmingham NS, Carlisle, Newcastle, Kings Cross, Waterloo, Havant, Southampton Central, Salisbury.

Is that okay, using your (il)logic I am not doubling back or even going via the same group twice either, unlike your mickey mouse route!

 

[bb21]

So I can buy a Newton Abbott to Salisbury ticket and go
Newton Abbott, Birmingham NS, Carlisle, Newcastle, Kings Cross, Waterloo, Havant, Southampton Central, Salisbury.

On what basis?

Is that okay, using your (il)logic I am not doubling back or even going via the same group twice either, unlike your mickey mouse route!

But he is using a mapped route.

 

[maniacmartin]

So I can buy a Newton Abbott to Salisbury ticket and go
Newton Abbott, Birmingham NS, Carlisle, Newcastle, Kings Cross, Waterloo, Havant, Southampton Central, Salisbury.

Is that okay, using your (il)logic I am not doubling back or even going via the same group twice either, unlike your mickey mouse route!

I don't think this example also has a mapped route in the Routeing Guide!

 

[455driver]

But he is using a mapped route.

That is mapped!hock:

Blimey, I take it back.

Can tickets be bought using this route though?
It certainly isnt meant to be a valid route, that is for sure.

 

[LexyBoy]

That is mapped!hock:

Blimey, I take it back.

Can tickets be bought using this route though?
It certainly isnt meant to be a valid route, that is for sure.

Of course tickets can- you'd have trouble getting reservations though as I don't think you'll find any journey planner to accept it.

I'm sure there are other examples just as silly as yours!

 

[OwlMan]

It may or may not be doubling back,but it is not valid as you must stop tracing your route when you reach your destination routeing group. That is when you first reached Bristol Group.

From Section A of NRG
Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g)
ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via
any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the
final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final
routeing point is reached.

Peter

 

[soil]

Two problems with that theory.

The first is that the maps are CE + BD, and as CE is the first map, then it's clear we can take any route that doesn't double back between stations.

One such route would be Worcester - Bristol Parkway - Swindon.

Swindon is an intercept point with map BD, and from Swindon we can travel Swindon - Bath - Bristol Temple Meads, where we reach the final routeing point on the final map.

The other problem is that if we are going for literal readings of 'until the final routeing point is reached', then it literally doesn't say we can't double back on the final map - it says 'any route until the final routeing point is reached'.

So on that basis we could go up to Hellifield and back, provided we stop when we go to Bristol.

The meaning of the quoted text is to my mind quite clear:

* For the first map in a combination trace a route to an intercept point with the next map
* For the second map in a combination, again trace a route to an intercept point with the next map
* And so on, until you get to the final map, where the final routeing point is reached.

 

[Mr Spock]

If I read some posts on here It appears that if this route is valid then some think it is not meant to be and that using it is taking the p*ss.

Yet another member uses weird routes and combinations of tickets which to all intent would appear to not meant to be used in those ways and all he does it get praise and told to keep up the good work.

 

[bnm]

Two problems with that theory.

The first is that the maps are CE + BD, and as CE is the first map, then it's clear we can take any route that doesn't double back between stations.

One such route would be Worcester - Bristol Parkway - Swindon.

Swindon is an intercept point with map BD, and from Swindon we can travel Swindon - Bath - Bristol Temple Meads, where we reach the final routeing point on the final map.

You can't go from Worcester to Swindon via Bristol Group on map CE though. It's Worcester - Cheltenham/Gloucester - Swindon.


There are lots of journeys in this area using maps CE+BD (or CE alone) and vice versa that allow for cheaper fares than the point-to-point tickets. Chippenham to Birmingham for example. It's less than half the price on most fare types buying a ticket to Worcester and ending short at Birmingham.

 

[Goatboy]

Are you saying an SVR from Chippenham to Worcester Stations is valid via Birmingham?

 

[bnm]

Yep, by virtue of Map CE.

 

[Goatboy]

NRES seems to have a heck of a job with Chippenham to Worcester. 3 different routes all with 3 different (Some completely stupid) ticket options. Seems if you go anywhere other than via Swindon and Gloucester it gives you the option of two tickets only.

It even says you need 2 tickets to go via Bristol Parkway and Cheltenham Spa which I'd have thought was the most reasonable route?!

 

[bb21]

Worcester Stations to Chippenham is no longer valid via Birmingham since the introduction of negative easement 700189. It used to be valid.

Customers travelling from Hereford, Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern,
Malvern Link, Worcester Foregate Street and Worcester Shrub Hill to
Cheltenham Spa and beyond, may not travel via Bromsgrove. This easement
applies in both directions.

 

[bnm]

I stand corrected. I'd forgotten about that recent easement change.

 

[Goatboy]

Thats a really crappy Easement, especially as the only way from 'Hereford, Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern,
Malvern Link, Worcester Foregate Street and Worcester Shrub Hill' to the CrossCountry network is via the infrequent FGW services to and from Cheltenham Spa.

This means that if you miss a connection, you face a very long wait. It also means that there is no reasonable Sunday afternoon route since the December timetable change where the rejig of LM Hereford to Birmingham services removed the easy connection into the 16:40 Worcester to Cheltenham.

Before, you could pop up to Bromsgrove and get an XC back down to Cheltenham

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure that easement was only added after bnm posted about it here!

It should be no surprise that ATOC read this site, so if a fixable anomaly is detailed there can be no expectation that it will remain valid for long.

 

[bnm]

I'm pretty sure that easement was only added after bnm posted about it here!

For such an accusation I'd like to see the evidence please. Both of my posting and for the link between my posting of it and it's inclusion in the list of easements. When one is 'pretty sure' then that needs to be backed up, otherwise it is just opinion.

Opinion I'll accept. Fact, without evidence I won't.

If no evidence of a link between any post of mine and the introduction of this easement is forthcoming then I'd appreciate you qualifying your statement.