Driver took a wrong route

[MotCO]

Would the situation ever arise when a train was unexpectedly diverted, down a route passed for that class of train, and route signed by the driver, but not route signed by the guard (unknown to the driver)? Would there be any consequences?

 

[sw1ller]

Would the situation ever arise when a train was unexpectedly diverted, down a route passed for that class of train, and route signed by the driver, but not route signed by the guard (unknown to the driver)? Would there be any consequences?

Yes. Driver should always check with the guard to make sure they also sign it. And yes, happens quite regularly.

 

[sw1ller]

Strictly speaking, Crewe steel works and Beeston Castle would have to look as they're both AB, and Chester PSB has the ability to see the train too. Once past Chester, it is Llandudno Jn, but the ironic thing is that it's TCB in the box area, even though it was AB at both ends, but now only at Penmaenmawr end of mainline. So for seeing whether it's complete, does Llandudno have to ensure its looking for tail lamp outside the actual box? Presumably to give line clear to Abergele it must have needed a camera?

Yeah, I was more making the point that all the boxes have closed now and it’s a shame. Some call it progress. We do an ECS move in the morning from Chester to LJ and need to tell the signaller upon arrival that you are complete with tail lamp. Llandudno it’s self would see it if it happened in that direction, so would deganwy.

 

[driver_m]

Yeah, I was more making the point that all the boxes have closed now and it’s a shame. Some call it progress. We do an ECS move in the morning from Chester to LJ and need to tell the signaller upon arrival that you are complete with tail lamp. Llandudno it’s self would see it if it happened in that direction, so would deganwy.

Never understood how that TCB within an AB thing worked unless there were cameras involved, if it was still Track Circuited to enable the last signals to work as they should, why didn't they just make Abergele and Penmaenmawr fringe to LJ and have LJ area fully TCB? Bangor works in the same way, just seems a bit odd.

To get back to the point. If the 90 on the back had a tail lamp, the signallers wouldn't question it. Not their job to question the consist really, would probably find it very odd, but if it had a lamp, and wasn't doing anything else unusual, why would it be questioned?

 

[sw1ller]

Never understood how that TCB within an AB thing worked unless there were cameras involved, if it was still Track Circuited to enable the last signals to work as they should, why didn't they just make Abergele and Penmaenmawr fringe to LJ and have LJ area fully TCB? Bangor works in the same way, just seems a bit odd.

To get back to the point. If the 90 on the back had a tail lamp, the signallers wouldn't question it. Not their job to question the consist really, would probably find it very odd, but if it had a lamp, and wasn't doing anything else unusual, why would it be questioned?

It wouldn’t. Not by a signaller anyway. Like you say, as long as there’s a tail lamp then it’s all good. I’m assuming station staff at LJ noticed it and raised the issue. Probably for the best, the pantograph May have been lost going through Conway, didn’t the pendos lose a few while being dragged up there??

 

[driver_m]

It wouldn’t. Not by a signaller anyway. Like you say, as long as there’s a tail lamp then it’s all good. I’m assuming station staff at LJ noticed it and raised the issue. Probably for the best, the pantograph May have been lost going through Conway, didn’t the pendos lose a few while being dragged up there??

No pans lost that I was aware of, but I do know the gauging was rather tight, to put it bluntly. The worry being if a hard tilt failure happened for some strange reason whilst being hauled.

 

[Tomnick]

Never understood how that TCB within an AB thing worked unless there were cameras involved, if it was still Track Circuited to enable the last signals to work as they should, why didn't they just make Abergele and Penmaenmawr fringe to LJ and have LJ area fully TCB? Bangor works in the same way, just seems a bit odd.

It looks like each section is* track circuited throughout towards LJ which removes the need to see a tail lamp, but there's no need for either to be track circuited in the opposite direction (it's just like an IB section in effect) so there's a saving there. Likewise between Bangor and Gaerwen. Presumably it's just for consistency, although I know at least one recent example which was AB in one direction and TCB in the other. The only other possible factor might be/have been the ground frame at Llysfaen which appears to be/have been in the clearing point from Abergele.

A complication is that Penmaenmawr can/could switch out, which in turn would remove LJ's ability to prove the section clear by track circuits alone?

* - was? Not sure how far the resignalling has gone...

 

[Panupreset]

I had an incident recently where my train was crossed from the down to the up wrong road without the route indication being displayed. The route indicator was found to be faulty. This happened in the dark in one of the most complex areas of the route. The signal with the junction indicator displayed a single yellow (but without the junction indicator being displayed). It didn’t take long before I realised something was seriously amiss and stopped and contacted signaller.

 

[driver_m]

It looks like each section is* track circuited throughout towards LJ which removes the need to see a tail lamp, but there's no need for either to be track circuited in the opposite direction (it's just like an IB section in effect) so there's a saving there. Likewise between Bangor and Gaerwen. Presumably it's just for consistency, although I know at least one recent example which was AB in one direction and TCB in the other. The only other possible factor might be/have been the ground frame at Llysfaen which appears to be/have been in the clearing point from Abergele.

A complication is that Penmaenmawr can/could switch out, which in turn would remove LJ's ability to prove the section clear by track circuits alone?

* - was? Not sure how far the resignalling has gone...

Abergele was the last box heading west which NR got rid of. LJ now fringes to South Wales ROC. Penmaenmawr does close out as well.

 

[GW43125]

I had an incident recently where my train was crossed from the down to the up wrong road without the route indication being displayed. The route indicator was found to be faulty. This happened in the dark in one of the most complex areas of the route. The signal with the junction indicator displayed a single yellow (but without the junction indicator being displayed). It didn’t take long before I realised something was seriously amiss and stopped and contacted signaller.

Slightly concerning, is the JI not supposed to be proved lit before the signal can clear?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I was on board a Blackpool-Manchester DMU once that was misrouted at Euxton Junc. The signaller wanted to send us via Chorley but this was the Saturdays-only via the Whelley Loop, De Trafford Junc and Atherton (I was gricing the rare route!) Fortunately the driver stopped and challenged the route and after the statutory 3-minute wait the correct signal was pulled-off. It didn't help that the headcode was the same for either routeing.

 

[craigybagel]

I can give another location out where a wrong route can be offered, and a driver can't possibly do anything to react and stop in time .However I shall leave it to you non staff people to work it out. Your clue is that the service splits and it's headcode was recently altered to minimise the risk of a wrong route . It involves a 221.

Saltney Junction? I know it's a hot spot for TfW wrong routings as well.....

Yes. Driver should always check with the guard to make sure they also sign it. And yes, happens quite regularly.

Back in my platform staff days I had to help clear out a service because due to engineering work it was going via a diversion that the driver signed but the guard didn't, so was running ECS. When the passengers found out exactly what was happening and why (they overhead a radio conversation) they weren't best pleased.....

I've had the opposite situation as a guard however, where I've signed the diversion but the driver didn't. Our control had already agreed with Network Rail that we'd take the diversion before I rang up to give them the bad news. By this stage the driver was already slowing down as we were approaching the flashing yellows that were a giveaway.

 

[driver_m]

Saltney Junction? I know it's a hot spot for TfW wrong routings as well.....

That's the one! Had to recode the 1810 for exactly that reason. Had a D code but front portion went to Wrexham. Often got sent towards Rhyl so changed to 1J32 to make it easier to route it correctly.

 

[DavidGrain]

Happened to me many years ago on a local train from Leeds to Sheffield on a Sunday afternoon.

Train came to a stop at a red signal and the driver got down to use the phone on the signal post. After a conversation between the driver and the guard, the guard came back through the train and announced that we had been sent on the wrong route and would be going back to Wakefield in order to take the alternative route.

Chatting to the guard later when he came through the train to check on anyone needing advice on alternative connections because of our late arrival in Sheffield. He told me that he and the driver had know all week that they would be diverted on the Sunday afternoon for engineering work. However when they signed on for duty that day they were told that they would be working as normal. Therefore the driver accepted the signal for the normal route. It was only when they got to the start of the work and the red signal that they realised that there was a problem. The guard said that when the driver phoned control he was asked what he was doing there.

 

[craigybagel]

That's the one! Had to recode the 1810 for exactly that reason. Had a D code but front portion went to Wrexham. Often got sent towards Rhyl so changed to 1J32 to make it easier to route it correctly.

So both the Wrexham and Holyhead portions used to have D codes? No wonder it caused trouble! Or was it because it runs as a D all the way from Euston (as all the other Chester and Holyheads do) and with the Wrexham being the front portion it had to keep the same headcode?

 

[sw1ller]

Saltney junction is quite a bad one. 99/100 I have to do a RBT before it, if you do it on roodee bridge you’ll be down to 40 as the signal comes into view, then it’s nice and easy to stop. Appreciate that’s not possible if you’re straight through from Crewe/Helsby.

 

[jfollows]

I have to do a RBT before it

Running Brake Test? I think it makes sense in the context of the rest of your post, but I was initially baffled.

 

[driver_m]

So both the Wrexham and Holyhead portions used to have D codes? No wonder it caused trouble! Or was it because it runs as a D all the way from Euston (as all the other Chester and Holyheads do) and with the Wrexham being the front portion it had to keep the same headcode?

It ran as 1D92 from.Euston, but the Wrexham portion was at the front . That changed to 1J32 for that portion, but if it didnt get inputted in the box, it would make it easy to lose track of what was going on. So easier to run it as 1J32 all the way and the back portion is now 1D92 from Chester. The RBT is a good idea being done on Roodee Bridge as @sw1ller says .

 

[sw1ller]

Running Brake Test? I think it makes sense in the context of the rest of your post, but I was initially baffled.

Yes, sorry. It’s easy to forget to add what the abbreviation means, and by the time you’ve done it, there’s no point abbreviating it! Haha

 

[Jasperpro]

Most frequently wrong routes accepted and taken by the driver is when the driver frequently uses both potential routes e.g. going through the middle road when booked to stop at a station in a loop. It’s extremely rare for a driver to accept a route they do not sign. For example on the Metropolitan Line route Chiltern trains are occasionally given the route accross from the Fasts to the Slows which Chiltern trains cannot take. It was extremely rare for a driver to accept the route as it would be a very unusual move for a mainline train.

There are occasions when a driver takes a wrong route given by the signaller and it’s not the drivers fault at all. For example at Leamington Spa trains are occasionally routed accidently onto the middle road instead of the platform line and because the train is braking down from potentially 90 mph and the signal with route indicator (theatre box) comes into view too late for the driver to be able to stop and challenge at the signal. Once you have passed the signal ahead of the diverging route it’s not possible for the points ahead to be changed!

 

[Lockwood]

If you do end up going the wrong way, and have to stop as a result is that a fast but comfortable stop or a jam on the anchors stop NOW stop? (Assuming you're not about to run out of third rail or knitting, or about to smash into a tunnel mouth you can't fit in)
Does that decision change based on the circumstance? (Wrong route but you sign it, Wrong route that you do not sign, Wrong route that you don't get flashing indicators to forewarn you of for example)

 

[sw1ller]

If you do end up going the wrong way, and have to stop as a result is that a fast but comfortable stop or a jam on the anchors stop NOW stop? (Assuming you're not about to run out of third rail or knitting, or about to smash into a tunnel mouth you can't fit in)
Does that decision change based on the circumstance? (Wrong route but you sign it, Wrong route that you do not sign, Wrong route that you don't get flashing indicators to forewarn you of for example)

What would be the safest course of action? Step 3 or emergency?

I get where you’re coming from but it’s the drivers licence to lose. When the train gets downloaded and the manager sees you’ve stopped comfortabley, s/he’s gonna start asking very uncomfortable questions!!

Sod comfort!

 

[philthetube]

Most frequently wrong routes accepted and taken by the driver is when the driver frequently uses both potential routes e.g. going through the middle road when booked to stop at a station in a loop. It’s extremely rare for a driver to accept a route they do not sign. For example on the Metropolitan Line route Chiltern trains are occasionally given the route accross from the Fasts to the Slows which Chiltern trains cannot take. It was extremely rare for a driver to accept the route as it would be a very unusual move for a mainline train.

I recall a Chiltern ending up at Watford Met, I am not aware of the existence of any pics.

 

[EvoIV]

For example at Leamington Spa trains are occasionally routed accidently onto the middle road instead of the platform line and because the train is braking down from potentially 90 mph and the signal with route indicator (theatre box) comes into view too late for the driver to be able to stop and challenge at the signal. Once you have passed the signal ahead of the diverging route it’s not possible for the points ahead to be changed!

Never really thought about it before but yes, you're right, there really should be a PRI or flashers on the Up Dorridge for the Leamington home signal. There's a split banner on the approach from the London end, with the speed over the viaducts slow enough to stop and challenge. Moves off the branch are relatively slow. It's just the approach from the Dorridge end that needs some help.

 

[axlecounter]

What would be the safest course of action? Step 3 or emergency?

I get where you’re coming from but it’s the drivers licence to lose. When the train gets downloaded and the manager sees you’ve stopped comfortabley, s/he’s gonna start asking very uncomfortable questions!!

Sod comfort!

Uncomfortable like what?

 

[bramling]

Southbound Northern Line trains at Kennington are sometimes switched to the loop instead of proceeding towards Morden. The signaller has made a mistake, and the driver has seen a green signal and started the train, not realising (until too late) that he's heading for the wrong route. Hopefully there's a least one passenger who thinks it's a good track-bashing experience.

Not any more, there's no signals at Kennington nowadays!

There's a different variation on the theme though - now it's all in-cab, signalman alters a train to reverse via Kennington siding and forgets to tell the driver, and the driver doesn't notice on his in-cab display. End result is a train load of unhappy punters in the siding, which is nasty for the driver as he now has to change ends past the unhappy mob. This happened a few times in the early days of the new signalling.

 

[father_jack]

There was a misrouting this morning at Didcot where during disruption an class 387 electric was sent into a dead section and another 387 had to be commandeered to rescue causing several cancellations....

It seems there is no "overlap" wiring from platform 5 at Didcot towards Oxford, unlike that seen at Maindee or Westerleigh junctions designed to mitigate/protect against misroutings.

Network Rail are describing it as a "train fault".

 

[FGW_DID]

Network Rail are describing it as a "train fault"

Root cause was a train fault to 2P08 which was in front of 5P11, blocking it.

 

[computerSaysNo]

What would be the safest course of action? Step 3 or emergency?

I get where you’re coming from but it’s the drivers licence to lose. When the train gets downloaded and the manager sees you’ve stopped comfortabley, s/he’s gonna start asking very uncomfortable questions!!

Sod comfort!

Would this still be the case on units where Step 3 on the brakes gives the same braking force as Emergency?
Would it be acceptable in that instance to go immediately to Step 3 (given no additional benefit of selecting Emergency) and then releasing slightly to give a smooth stop?

 

[Llama]

Emergency every time. Although there should be no increase in brake pressure, the fact that 'emergency' guarantees full brake application (for example earths out the supply to the relevant brake control wires on a Westcode brake) throughout the train is an important detail - it proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the brake is performing as effectively as it could possibly be at that time.